Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions Forum

[danquayle]

Also for the grading curve:

The school has a 3.3 curve (with a bit of room for the profs, of course) but the standard deviation isn't set. So at some other law schools professors are required to hand out 7% A's, 10% A-'s, 25% B+'s, etc. (as an example). Not so at IU. Most professors stick to a pretty good and rational deviation but there is one outlier that I know of.

LOL, What? Anyone have any idea when that kicked in? I graduated in 2002 and it was squarely a 3.0-3.1 curve (i.e., a professor couldn't give out higher than a 3.1 average unless they had less than 20 students in the class).

Grade inflation I guess...

They moved the curve from between 2.9 and 3.1 to around 3.3/3.4 the year after I started, 2007-2008. Which pissed a lot of us off. Naturally.

[danquayle]

FWIW, Gjerdingen was by far my least favorite professor.

Did you notice or hear about a non-correlation between Gjerdingen's grades versus other classes?

I had Heidt and absolutely loved him (one of my best friends paid something like $300 at the student auction to get a look at Heidt's seating chart that had lots of funny notes about students on them...not sure if he still does that). Pretty much everyone who did well in Heidt's torts classes finished extremely well overall. Whereas, all my friends who had Gjerdingen, all pretty much had some variety of "B" in his class, and those who got A's were not what I would consider good law students.

I did notice this actually. It's because Gjerdingen grades principally by how quickly you type. Not sure if they used laptops a decade ago. Gulp.

[thmgoodw]

FWIW, Gjerdingen was by far my least favorite professor.

Did you notice or hear about a non-correlation between Gjerdingen's grades versus other classes?

I had Heidt and absolutely loved him (one of my best friends paid something like $300 at the student auction to get a look at Heidt's seating chart that had lots of funny notes about students on them...not sure if he still does that). Pretty much everyone who did well in Heidt's torts classes finished extremely well overall. Whereas, all my friends who had Gjerdingen, all pretty much had some variety of "B" in his class, and those who got A's were not what I would consider good law students.

I did notice this actually. It's because Gjerdingen grades principally by how quickly you type. Not sure if they used laptops a decade ago. Gulp.

LOL, nope. They had a room where one could bring hardcore Brother typewriters in. I tried it for my first exam (Contracts) and never tried that again. I used a laptop in class but at that time some law schools were just beginning to experiment with allowing laptops for final exams and IU hadn't gotten around to that position I guess.

[Spoonmanners]

Grammar fail.

Obnoxious win! Just for that, I will work in the incorrect your/you're somewhere in this post.

Last year I remember them coming in around 11pm mon-friday, but then on saturday in the afternoon earlier.

Feel lucky as last year we did not have any grades at least for another week haha.

There is zero method to the madness. Some came during school hours, some during weekends, some in the middle of the night. If a teacher is to be believed, there is at least a 3-4 day delay, depending on you're teacher.

If someone could elaborate a bit more on the summer start program that would be great. Any regrets? Is it worth it? How does it change the courses you take during 1L if you take torts over the summer?

Thanks.

I only recommend it for people who can read through a thread and find the multiple discussions. I'd highly recommend it.

To all those interested in what it takes to maintain the scholarship I just received this reply from the admissions office,

"Thanks for your continued interest in Indiana Law.

Satisfactory progress means remaining in good academic standing. You will keep your scholarship as long as you remain enrolled in the school."

90% sure I am heading to IUB.

Guess they are continuing the same rules. As long as you maintain above a 2.3, you keep your scholarship. I've never heard of a grade below a C+. If you get below a C- average, you likely have bigger problems than keeping the scholarship.

Old post, but just had to chime in. I had D. Williams for Con Law and it was horrific. I really hated his style and wanted to stick a fork through my eye every class. You might it consider it just telling us his views, but it seemed like it was a sermon indoctrination to many of us. I had some great professors, like Hoffman, Buxbaum, Geyh and Stake, but Williams was a piece of work. No doubt Williams has a high IQ, but so does Hoffman and he's not a douchebag.

On a side note, I hated his wife even more. We had a mandatory sensitivity or some sort of class wide event with speakers, with Susan as the MC. Susan would ask a question, and then anytime anyone disagreed with her position or didn't spout back the same viewpoint as Susan wanted, she would instantly cut off the person. IMHO, she is a b*tch.

I'd recommend listening to Kings advice as opposed to this guys. If what he says is true, he is 35+ and somehow found TLS. I have no idea what type of sensitivity class he is talking about, but they don't do anything like that. Even though I don't agree with Williams general politics, he was one of my favorite teachers.

And considering the positive comments about Hoff, this must either be another account of UnjustEnrichment, or someone who has no basis to give advice to people who will be taking classes.

Sorry, I meant to start that off with "IMHO" so it's not as rude. I also plan on complaining about my high school freshman English teacher, and I imagine every aspect remains the same with how she teaches 10 years later.

FWIW, Gjerdingen was by far my least favorite professor.

Did you notice or hear about a non-correlation between Gjerdingen's grades versus other classes?

Short of a small, small percentage of the class, I have seen or heard about very little correlation between grades overall, regardless of Gjgerdingen.

[thmgoodw]

I'd recommend listening to Kings advice as opposed to this guys. If what he says is true, he is 35+ and somehow found TLS.

It's called Google dolt. I'm actually judging moot court this year and was just searching for recent chatter on the school.

I have no idea what type of sensitivity class he is talking about, but they don't do anything like that.

Well, I can assure you that if you chatted with anyone back then they would concur. It was a joke and likely a brain child of Susan.

Even though I don't agree with Williams general politics, he was one of my favorite teachers.

And considering the positive comments about Hoff, this must either be another account of UnjustEnrichment, or someone who has no basis to give advice to people who will be taking classes.

If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

[Spoonmanners]

Edited: I should not engage in mind games. I have a separate opinion from someone who claims to be a grown up who graduated from this institution 10 years ago, but has only been able to mention professors who teach 1L classes. I blame myself for even acknowledging any sort of post that would fit under that criteria.

[thmgoodw]

Edited: I should not engage in mind games. I have a separate opinion from someone who claims to be a grown up who graduated from this institution 10 years ago, but has only been able to mention professors who teach 1L classes. I blame myself for even acknowledging any sort of post that would fit under that criteria.

LOL, buxbaum teaches first year classes? She never did that back in the day. Basially IBT, Seurities, Secured Transactions. You know, the classes that are actually relevant. I should stop wasting your time though, so that you an find that open job flipping burgers at McD's for $9 an hour. Good luck with that. Maybe you can chat with the "fry guy" about how great Williams is.

[danquayle]

Edited: I should not engage in mind games. I have a separate opinion from someone who claims to be a grown up who graduated from this institution 10 years ago, but has only been able to mention professors who teach 1L classes. I blame myself for even acknowledging any sort of post that would fit under that criteria.

Why so angry Spoon? It's uncharacteristic. You should take it as a good sign that someone 10 years out still feels strongly about the law school, wants to be engaged, and wants to speak with current students. I fail how this is a bad thing, and how not going so makes you "better than that."

Law schools more than most institutes thrive on strong alumni bases, don't fault any alumni for staying engaged. I know plenty of alumni who would sincerely prefer the law school burn down, is that better?

And I had Williams as well, and I liked him a lot at first. But he got to be pretty obnoxious towards the end, especially once you realized he was just giving rhetorical speeches on his political leanings. What really turned against him was when he called Bollinger "just a loser who couldn't get into an elite school." That rubbed me the wrong way, and was way more emotional engaged than I'd prefer a professor should be. I also found it a bit ridiculous how every student would go OMG Williams simply because he echoed their political beliefs.

That being said, I still thing he's a gem of the law school, and love that he's there. Just because a professor rubs you the wrong way doesn't mean you should view them subjectively. No doubt Williams knew his stuff and could articulate it. Same way I feel about Heidt, who got a lot of flak for heavily criticizing affirmative action and interjecting his personal opinion into his education. The same people. by the way, who hated Heidt for doing that loved Williams for doing precisely the same. I also found that obnoxious.

I find a lot obnoxious I guess.

[danquayle]

Edited: I should not engage in mind games. I have a separate opinion from someone who claims to be a grown up who graduated from this institution 10 years ago, but has only been able to mention professors who teach 1L classes. I blame myself for even acknowledging any sort of post that would fit under that criteria.

LOL, buxbaum teaches first year classes? She never did that back in the day. Basially IBT, Seurities, Secured Transactions. You know, the classes that are actually relevant. I should stop wasting your time though, so that you an find that open job flipping burgers at McD's for $9 an hour. Good luck with that. Maybe you can chat with the "fry guy" about how great Williams is.

Also needlessly harsh. $9 is way above minimum wage.

[Spoonmanners]

Why so angry Spoon? It's uncharacteristic.

Sorry. In the simplest terms, I'm not certain of the other posters identity. I would simply expect different behavior from someone of what should be a similar age, as I am approaching that similar age. I have seen a number of things I don't particularly agree with, including one of his deleted posts, that really makes me hope he didn't actually graduate in the early 2000's.

Just saying, every teacher he mentioned taught 1L classes.

I'll try to come back tomorrow and look at his posts and such, and ignore his deleted post, and try to put it into some perspective.

[Unjust Enrichment]

I'd recommend listening to Kings advice as opposed to this guys. If what he says is true, he is 35+ and somehow found TLS. I have no idea what type of sensitivity class he is talking about, but they don't do anything like that. Even though I don't agree with Williams general politics, he was one of my favorite teachers.

And considering the positive comments about Hoff, this must either be another account of UnjustEnrichment, or someone who has no basis to give advice to people who will be taking classes.

Did someone shine the bat signal?

I wouldn't talk about Susan Williams that way. Her teaching style didn't mesh very well with me, but I thought she seemed like a really good person. I wouldn't even think to personally attack her.

Anyway, I was in the minority who never much cared for David Williams either, but as popular as he is, I wouldn't really tell anyone not to take him. Nobody is going to have 100% approval ratings. Same can be said for Hoffmann, where my positive view is most decidedly NOT in the minority. That guy is brilliant.

Anyway, I don't even know who initially asked a question or who I'm addressing at this point since I didn't follow this whole string, so I'll bow back out. I realize that Spoon was just kidding about it being me, but I figured I would chime in since I was mentioned.

[danquayle]

I'd recommend listening to Kings advice as opposed to this guys. If what he says is true, he is 35+ and somehow found TLS. I have no idea what type of sensitivity class he is talking about, but they don't do anything like that. Even though I don't agree with Williams general politics, he was one of my favorite teachers.

And considering the positive comments about Hoff, this must either be another account of UnjustEnrichment, or someone who has no basis to give advice to people who will be taking classes.

Did someone shine the bat signal?

I wouldn't talk about Susan Williams that way. Her teaching style didn't mesh very well with me, but I thought she seemed like a really good person. I wouldn't even think to personally attack her.

Anyway, I was in the minority who never much cared for David Williams either, but as popular as he is, I wouldn't really tell anyone not to take him. Nobody is going to have 100% approval ratings. Same can be said for Hoffmann, where my positive view is most decidedly NOT in the minority. That guy is brilliant.

Anyway, I don't even know who initially asked a question or who I'm addressing at this point since I didn't follow this whole string, so I'll bow back out. I realize that Spoon was just kidding about it being me, but I figured I would chime in since I was mentioned.

And hilarious. But your points are well taken.

[Bankhead]

thmgoodw wrote: If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

Yet Heidt was your favorite professor?

A good professor keeps you engaged, is well versed in the material, and teaches the concepts clearly. I've found that profs who teach objectively are often boring and forgettable.

Susan Williams is a wonderful Property professor; I would imagine she's much worse at moderating a sensitivity seminar -- but I can't imagine anyone would do a good job at such. Indeed, I'd like to think that we are all intelligent enough in law school as to formulate our own viewpoints, even if the prof is a bit jaded.

And although I disagree with you, your additions and perspective are valuable to this thread. So what are you up to now, career wise?

[Spoonmanners]

I'd recommend listening to Kings advice as opposed to this guys. If what he says is true, he is 35+ and somehow found TLS. I have no idea what type of sensitivity class he is talking about, but they don't do anything like that. Even though I don't agree with Williams general politics, he was one of my favorite teachers.

And considering the positive comments about Hoff, this must either be another account of UnjustEnrichment, or someone who has no basis to give advice to people who will be taking classes.

Did someone shine the bat signal?

I wouldn't talk about Susan Williams that way. Her teaching style didn't mesh very well with me, but I thought she seemed like a really good person. I wouldn't even think to personally attack her.

Anyway, I was in the minority who never much cared for David Williams either, but as popular as he is, I wouldn't really tell anyone not to take him. Nobody is going to have 100% approval ratings. Same can be said for Hoffmann, where my positive view is most decidedly NOT in the minority. That guy is brilliant.

Anyway, I don't even know who initially asked a question or who I'm addressing at this point since I didn't follow this whole string, so I'll bow back out. I realize that Spoon was just kidding about it being me, but I figured I would chime in since I was mentioned.

I had just never heard love of Hoff and hate of Williams from the same person, so I dropped your name, but obviously, not while seriously saying you were that person. I have general theories as to who the new poster is, and I hate all possible solutions.

[danquayle]

thmgoodw wrote: If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

Yet Heidt was your favorite professor?

A good professor keeps you engaged, is well versed in the material, and teaches the concepts clearly. I've found that profs who teach objectively are often boring and forgettable.

Susan Williams is a wonderful Property professor; I would imagine she's much worse at moderating a sensitivity seminar -- but I can't imagine anyone would do a good job at such. Indeed, I'd like to think that we are all intelligent enough in law school as to formulate our own viewpoints, even if the prof is a bit jaded.

And although I disagree with you, your additions and perspective are valuable to this thread. So what are you up to now, career wise?

Maybe he's just using Hoffman as template. For a criminal law professor, that guy's political leanings are a downright enigma.

[Bankhead]

thmgoodw wrote: If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

Yet Heidt was your favorite professor?

A good professor keeps you engaged, is well versed in the material, and teaches the concepts clearly. I've found that profs who teach objectively are often boring and forgettable.

Susan Williams is a wonderful Property professor; I would imagine she's much worse at moderating a sensitivity seminar -- but I can't imagine anyone would do a good job at such. Indeed, I'd like to think that we are all intelligent enough in law school as to formulate our own viewpoints, even if the prof is a bit jaded.

And although I disagree with you, your additions and perspective are valuable to this thread. So what are you up to now, career wise?

Maybe he's just using Hoffman as template. For a criminal law professor, that guy's political leanings are a downright enigma.

Religious, conservative-leaning. Would be my best guess.

[Spoonmanners]

thmgoodw wrote: If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

Yet Heidt was your favorite professor?

A good professor keeps you engaged, is well versed in the material, and teaches the concepts clearly. I've found that profs who teach objectively are often boring and forgettable.

Susan Williams is a wonderful Property professor; I would imagine she's much worse at moderating a sensitivity seminar -- but I can't imagine anyone would do a good job at such. Indeed, I'd like to think that we are all intelligent enough in law school as to formulate our own viewpoints, even if the prof is a bit jaded.

And although I disagree with you, your additions and perspective are valuable to this thread. So what are you up to now, career wise?

Thanks bankhead, I think you do have valuable information for other students, which is at odds with the other poster. I am more than happy to give respect where respect is due.

Other poster apparently has some internet consulting thing after a few years elsewhere. This is the positive of people with 15 posts, in that you can figure out who they are, when they specify things such as general location and practice area as well as being a moot court justice. I will figure out if they are a real person pretty quick.

[Unjust Enrichment]

I had just never heard love of Hoff and hate of Williams from the same person, so I dropped your name, but obviously, not while seriously saying you were that person. I have general theories as to who the new poster is, and I hate all possible solutions.

For the record, hate is honestly too strong to describe my emotion toward Williams. I just didn't take to him and didn't see why everyone else was so much in love with him. That's as much bad as I would say about his teaching. Like I said, he was popular enough that I would be quick to tell a prospective student, "I didn't like him, but most did, so chances are that you would."

[Unjust Enrichment]

thmgoodw wrote: If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

Yet Heidt was your favorite professor?

A good professor keeps you engaged, is well versed in the material, and teaches the concepts clearly. I've found that profs who teach objectively are often boring and forgettable.

Susan Williams is a wonderful Property professor; I would imagine she's much worse at moderating a sensitivity seminar -- but I can't imagine anyone would do a good job at such. Indeed, I'd like to think that we are all intelligent enough in law school as to formulate our own viewpoints, even if the prof is a bit jaded.

And although I disagree with you, your additions and perspective are valuable to this thread. So what are you up to now, career wise?

Maybe he's just using Hoffman as template. For a criminal law professor, that guy's political leanings are a downright enigma.

Religious, conservative-leaning. Would be my best guess.

I never picked up the religious part necessarily, but yes I'm almost sure that Hoffmann leans conservative. Not only did he clerk for Rehnquist, but he made it pretty clear that he agreed with the opinions he wrote on Rehnquist's behalf. That, and I went to his office one time and he had a "Confirm Roberts" sticker on the door. Honestly, the only question in my mind is how conservative he is.

[thmgoodw]

thmgoodw wrote: If you can tell a professor's political leaning through the professor's lectures, that is not a very good professor.

Yet Heidt was your favorite professor?

Not my numero uno professor. That honor goes to Buxbaum in the classroom and Geyh outside of the classroom. I simply enjoyed Heidt and thought he taught me how to think critically more than any other professor in a single class.

Susan Williams is a wonderful Property professor; I would imagine she's much worse at moderating a sensitivity seminar -- but I can't imagine anyone would do a good job at such. Indeed, I'd like to think that we are all intelligent enough in law school as to formulate our own viewpoints, even if the prof is a bit jaded.

I had Stake and was fortunate for that I think. I probably enjoyed being in Stake's classes more than any other professor.

And although I disagree with you, your additions and perspective are valuable to this thread.

I've always been a straight shooter and that will never change i'm afraid. I don't "need" anyone at the law school for anything anymore, so i'm not afraid to speak my mind on those matters I guess.

So what are you up to now, career wise?

After doing corporate work for emerging companies in Chicago and out on the East Coast, I started my business consulting company about 18 months ago. I couldn't stand the politics of law firms anymore, and felt the stress was adding artificial years onto my life (sort of like how Bill Clinton aged at about 3x the normal rate while in office). So, I have a much more mellow life, running my own little shop. I'm looking to potentially open a gym with a former co-worker later this year. The skills one learns in law school and practicing law help so much beyond just practicing law. I'm actually contemplating getting an MBA now though (while running my business...maybe hire a full-time assistant to run things...not sure) as I could use a better background in things like financial accounting, analyzing financial statements, etc.

I have to say life is much better now. I actually look forward to getting out of bed each day.

Thanks for asking!

[Bankhead]

I get the religious part from:

1. His longtime academic partner, Bill Stuntz, specializes in Law and Christianity. He wrote the textbook with Stuntz, so I would imagine they might share many of the same viewpoints.

2. He dislikes the MPC for, he mentioned, taking much of the morality out of Criminal Law/mens rea (and replacing it with comma splices).

This is speculation, though. He did do a good job of covering his political views, while still making his opinions on various matters and cases known.

[cccZillo]

Not to interrupt lively discourse, but I have another question. And this one is IMPORTANT.

Actually, I was just wondering about the gym situation in Bloomington. My Google research makes it look not so good, but I wanted to collect some first-hand opinions.

Thanks all.

[Spoonmanners]

I'm looking to potentially open a gym with a former co-worker later this year. The skills one learns in law school and practicing law help so much beyond just practicing law.

Thank you Sir, for keeping 1,000 people out of the legal profession.

[thmgoodw]

I had just never heard love of Hoff and hate of Williams from the same person, so I dropped your name, but obviously, not while seriously saying you were that person. I have general theories as to who the new poster is, and I hate all possible solutions.

So you know people who graduated in 2002? If you do, say hi.

[Bankhead]

Not to interrupt lively discourse, but I have another question. And this one is IMPORTANT.

Actually, I was just wondering about the gym situation in Bloomington. My Google research makes it look not so good, but I wanted to collect some first-hand opinions.

Thanks all.

It's good. Two gyms on campus. One fairly new and the other newly renovated.