COMMON 0L QUESTIONS books, study guides, E&Es, studying,etc Forum

[Hyder]

When it comes to buying supplements(E&E series), is it important to have the latest edition??? Because I have older versions, but I am willing to spend money on the latest editions..if and only if it will make a significant difference.

[badlydrawn]

What are some of the big differences between strong and weak legal writing? Obviously clarity, brevity, and detail are important. But what are some things that stand out?

I improved my grades a lot (went up .2) second semester. I think part of it was my exam organization. Second semester, I wrote introductory paragraphs for each essay, including a roadmap highlighting the major issues. I made sure to have a topic sentence for each paragraph. Also, first semester, I was told constantly--just argue both sides and you'll be fine. Second semester, I didn't always argue both sides; instead, i learned to flesh out which issues were the thorny ones, and which ones deserved a quick dismissal. This was similar to how I wrote my brief--I didn't waste my breath over issues that my side was never going to win. Don't use flowery language and really milk the facts.

This is extremely similar to my experience. During my first semester I tried to find every single issue and argue every side. This ended up distracting my professors and leaving them with the impression that I didn't understand how to "write like a lawyer." In the second semester, I essentially followed the approach advocated in the above post. My goal was to produce uncreative, simple exam answers that were extremely well organized (and therefore easy to grade). I IRAC'd where appropriate, underlined each new claim, and numbered elements and sub paragraphs. I didn't use flowery language, though I threw in a few asides on a policy heavy exam. Most importantly, I focused almost entirely on spotlight issues, tossing away loser claims with a sentence or two. I argued both sides, but only when there was something that was intentionally ambiguous about the prompt. This turned out to be a very, very good strategy.

I would pay $5,000 to go back and read this post as a 0L.

Would you or someone else provide a quick overview of how you structured an exam providing headings, numbered elements, and sub-paragraphs with an example? How would your heading read?

[Hyder]

What are some of the big differences between strong and weak legal writing? Obviously clarity, brevity, and detail are important. But what are some things that stand out?

I improved my grades a lot (went up .2) second semester. I think part of it was my exam organization. Second semester, I wrote introductory paragraphs for each essay, including a roadmap highlighting the major issues. I made sure to have a topic sentence for each paragraph. Also, first semester, I was told constantly--just argue both sides and you'll be fine. Second semester, I didn't always argue both sides; instead, i learned to flesh out which issues were the thorny ones, and which ones deserved a quick dismissal. This was similar to how I wrote my brief--I didn't waste my breath over issues that my side was never going to win. Don't use flowery language and really milk the facts.

This is extremely similar to my experience. During my first semester I tried to find every single issue and argue every side. This ended up distracting my professors and leaving them with the impression that I didn't understand how to "write like a lawyer." In the second semester, I essentially followed the approach advocated in the above post. My goal was to produce uncreative, simple exam answers that were extremely well organized (and therefore easy to grade). I IRAC'd where appropriate, underlined each new claim, and numbered elements and sub paragraphs. I didn't use flowery language, though I threw in a few asides on a policy heavy exam. Most importantly, I focused almost entirely on spotlight issues, tossing away loser claims with a sentence or two. I argued both sides, but only when there was something that was intentionally ambiguous about the prompt. This turned out to be a very, very good strategy.

I would pay $5,000 to go back and read this post as a 0L.

Would you or someone else provide a quick overview of how you structured an exam providing headings, numbered elements, and sub-paragraphs with an example? How would your heading read?

I would like to see this as well, thanks

[Hyder]

When it comes to buying supplements(E&E series), is it important to have the latest edition??? Because I have older versions, but I am willing to spend money on the latest editions..if and only if it will make a significant difference.

[edcrane]

Would you or someone else provide a quick overview of how you structured an exam providing headings, numbered elements, and sub-paragraphs with an example? How would your heading read?

I would like to see this as well, thanks

If no one else has tackled this by then, I'll put together a short example answer after I finish a few callback interviews.

[lawyer180]

Thanks Edcrane; us 1L's would def appreciate it!

Would you or someone else provide a quick overview of how you structured an exam providing headings, numbered elements, and sub-paragraphs with an example? How would your heading read?

I would like to see this as well, thanks

If no one else has tackled this by then, I'll put together a short example answer after I finish a few callback interviews.

[mikeytwoshoes]

When it comes to buying supplements(E&E series), is it important to have the latest edition??? Because I have older versions, but I am willing to spend money on the latest editions..if and only if it will make a significant difference.

Yeah, it's not like that one hasn't been answered 6000 times before.

[reverendt]

When it comes to buying supplements(E&E series), is it important to have the latest edition??? Because I have older versions, but I am willing to spend money on the latest editions..if and only if it will make a significant difference.

Really only in Criminal Procedure...some important aspects of that class change frequently....but you're fine for the rest.

[Hyder]

When it comes to buying supplements(E&E series), is it important to have the latest edition??? Because I have older versions, but I am willing to spend money on the latest editions..if and only if it will make a significant difference.

Really only in Criminal Procedure...some important aspects of that class change frequently....but you're fine for the rest.

Thanks!

[Hyder]

Thanks Edcrane; us 1L's would def appreciate it!

Would you or someone else provide a quick overview of how you structured an exam providing headings, numbered elements, and sub-paragraphs with an example? How would your heading read?

I would like to see this as well, thanks

If no one else has tackled this by then, I'll put together a short example answer after I finish a few callback interviews.

+1

[JPeavy44]

Would an outline that is keyed to my casebook, but from a student at another school be helpful?

[gobucks101]

Any thoughts on audio cds? I got the Freer' Civil Procedure Legends audio book and it works great because my casebook is Freer. Contracts is killing me right now and I was looking for a good audio cd. Recommendations?

[Son of Cicero]

Would an outline that is keyed to my casebook, but from a student at another school be helpful?

Outlines from other schools can provide good templates and foundations for your outlines. I like to look for these at the start of the semester if I can't get something tailored specifically to my professor's class, and then I revise them to include all of the important points from my classes and rearrange the materials so that the sequencing aligns more closely with my syllabi. These outlines tend to work best when they consist of collections of case briefs (not to be read instead of the cases, but simply to save you the effort of typing things up on your own) and for statute/rule compilations. These can be huge timesavers. Also, sometimes the student who wrote the outline will include prof. commentary that is more instructive or original than the material in your own prof's lectures, which can give you a unique angle on the cases.

[JPeavy44]

Would an outline that is keyed to my casebook, but from a student at another school be helpful?

Outlines from other schools can provide good templates and foundations for your outlines. I like to look for these at the start of the semester if I can't get something tailored specifically to my professor's class, and then I revise them to include all of the important points from my classes and rearrange the materials so that the sequencing aligns more closely with my syllabi. These outlines tend to work best when they consist of collections of case briefs (not to be read instead of the cases, but simply to save you the effort of typing things up on your own) and for statute/rule compilations. These can be huge timesavers. Also, sometimes the student who wrote the outline will include prof. commentary that is more instructive or original than the material in your own prof's lectures, which can give you a unique angle on the cases.

Thanks man

[SpAcEmAn SpLiFF]

why does there seem to be all these different versions of "Understanding Criminal Law" by Dressler? In one amazon link, the lowest price of the book was $45. In another amazon link (student edition), the book was as low as $7...

I also found another amazon link with a legal text edition

what do these all mean?

[lishi]

It could just mean that they are different editions. Older editions would likely cost less, but in some circumstances may not have as updated material.

[SpAcEmAn SpLiFF]

It could just mean that they are different editions. Older editions would likely cost less, but in some circumstances may not have as updated material.

cool thanks!

[corporatelaw87]

Hey guys 0L here had some quick questions about some things I've been reading on here.

1) When people refer to a "policy book" in supplement to their casebook, to get little extra tidbits for exam time, what are they referring to? Is its purpose just to get little extra bits of info for exam time?

2) I hear hornbooks are great supplements, but I see there are concise versions and regular versions, which is better?

3) When you use canned briefs, how exactly do you use them?

Thanks!

[Snooker]

1) My professor loves eminent domain policy, so I picked up a policy book about eminent domain. Basically, policy questions will appear on old tests - have an idea how to talk about the topic intelligently. Another policy thing to think about is Law & Economics type stuff and Utilitarian Ethics. When a top 10 (nationally) civ pro professor writes JEREMY BENTHAM on the board, I felt grateful for having read it! But the utilitarianism really comes out in economics - i.e. Adam Smith first wrote a book on utilitarianism, then on economics, then on law and economics

2) I read the whole hornbook. They beat other outlines hands down. One tough prof told me she knows I always have the right answer in my head; it's because I read the hornbooks.

3) I read lexis/westlaw briefs. Canned briefs are useless and will fuck up your brain (referring to the ones organized like a law student brief). The lexis brief will discuss the case more like the professor will. I usually read the hornbook and note where the HB discusses my case, then the canned brief, and finally the case -- just once. This is enough for the Professor to comment, after my on call day, that I apparently "know the case inside and out, every detail, and point of law"... Even if I only read the case once. Follow the HB-Brief-Case method. The HB gives you law and concepts, brief gives you the facts and holding (and point of law if needed), and the case is the real deal. I recommend doing the HB/Brief first to expedite your reading of the full case. For an hour class, I need to spend maybe 35-40 minutes reading the cases, and that includes time spent on making computer notes of them.

[LjakW]

1) My professor loves eminent domain policy, so I picked up a policy book about eminent domain. Basically, policy questions will appear on old tests - have an idea how to talk about the topic intelligently. Another policy thing to think about is Law & Economics type stuff and Utilitarian Ethics. When a top 10 (nationally) civ pro professor writes JEREMY BENTHAM on the board, I felt grateful for having read it! But the utilitarianism really comes out in economics - i.e. Adam Smith first wrote a book on utilitarianism, then on economics, then on law and economics

2) I read the whole hornbook. They beat other outlines hands down. One tough prof told me she knows I always have the right answer in my head; it's because I read the hornbooks.

3) I read lexis/westlaw briefs. Canned briefs are useless and will fuck up your brain (referring to the ones organized like a law student brief). The lexis brief will discuss the case more like the professor will. I usually read the hornbook and note where the HB discusses my case, then the canned brief, and finally the case -- just once. This is enough for the Professor to comment, after my on call day, that I apparently "know the case inside and out, every detail, and point of law"... Even if I only read the case once. Follow the HB-Brief-Case method. The HB gives you law and concepts, brief gives you the facts and holding (and point of law if needed), and the case is the real deal. I recommend doing the HB/Brief first to expedite your reading of the full case. For an hour class, I need to spend maybe 35-40 minutes reading the cases, and that includes time spent on making computer notes of them.

Just wondering: Have you gotten law school grades at all?

[twade]

I received Calamari from a friend, but a majority seem to like Chirelstein. I haven't read either yet, can someone give me some direction on this? Any help would be great...

[twade]

High praise seems to be given to Torts and Civ Pro, but what are your thoughts on E&E for Crim Law and Con Law? Worth pairing with a good hornbook?

[m311]

High praise seems to be given to Torts and Civ Pro, but what are your thoughts on E&E for Crim Law and Con Law? Worth pairing with a good hornbook?

I don't like you.

[mikeytwoshoes]

High praise seems to be given to Torts and Civ Pro, but what are your thoughts on E&E for Crim Law and Con Law? Worth pairing with a good hornbook?

I don't like you.

No, you're a towel!

[deadatheist]

i just want to rave about my e&e for civ pro... even if this rave doesn't belong in this thread OR may be redundant of something others have said in...8 odd pages, i don't care and i figure it belongs on tls.

my two cents is to just look at the examples and explanations to test yourself... the summaries are not worth my time personally, but the examples are nuanced enough to help me feel like my time at this point in the game is being spent well going over these examples, esp. based just on what i've retained from outlining. so... ::rave::