Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions Forum

[Bronte]

Is it true that the 12 credits allowed at other schools (like Ross) must be taken pass-fail? Is there any way around this?

It's true that these are mandatory pass-fail, but the grade that you receive DOES appear on your transcript unless you specifically request to have a P appear. The grade doesn't affect your law school GPA, but your employers will be able to see that you've done well. I did this for two different classes, one in the English department and one in the Spanish department.

Mandatory pass-fail classes taken within the law school, on the other hand, are just satisfactory/unsatisfactory.

Nice, thanks a lot.

[cutiewiddlebebe]

I was looking at the 2010-2011 academic calendar and it struck me as odd that there is no substantial reading period prior to exams. Rather, in the Fall for example, classes end on Friday 12/10 and exams begin on Monday 12/13. The weekend of the 11th is denoted on the schedule as "Study Days".

My understanding is that the exam period is incredibly stressful, a condition which would only seem to be exacerbated by having exams commence so closely to the end of classes. Any insight would be most appreciated.

[Aeroplane]

I was looking at the 2010-2011 academic calendar and it struck me as odd that there is no substantial reading period prior to exams. Rather, in the Fall for example, classes end on Friday 12/10 and exams begin on Monday 12/13. The weekend of the 11th is denoted on the schedule as "Study Days".

My understanding is that the exam period is incredibly stressful, a condition which would only seem to be exacerbated by having exams commence so closely to the end of classes. Any insight would be most appreciated.

Just because exam period begins on a certain day, doesn't mean that 1L exams will begin on that day. This year exam period began on Dec 9, but there were no 1L exams until Dec 10. I believe 1L's always have 3 full days b/w any two exams and 3 full days b/w last class & first exam.

[Lawlcat]

IJKL was Torts, Property, and Crim.

PUT ON THE SORTING HAT

Hmm, difficult. VERY difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind, either. There's talent, oh yes. And a thirst to prove yourself. But where to put you?
Not EFGH. Not EFGH.
Not EFGH, eh? Are you sure? You could be great, you know. It's all here in your head. And EFGH will help you on the way to greatness, there's no doubt about that. No?
Please, please. Anything but EFGH, anything but EFGH.
Well if you're sure, better be... ABCD!

Ahahahaha. [Excessive geekiness removed.]

I knew an EFGH once, and he was probably the bravest 1L I ever knew.

[betsyanna]

I was looking at the 2010-2011 academic calendar and it struck me as odd that there is no substantial reading period prior to exams. Rather, in the Fall for example, classes end on Friday 12/10 and exams begin on Monday 12/13. The weekend of the 11th is denoted on the schedule as "Study Days".

My understanding is that the exam period is incredibly stressful, a condition which would only seem to be exacerbated by having exams commence so closely to the end of classes. Any insight would be most appreciated.

A reading period might be nice, but exams are stressful no matter what. Last semester, I only had one take home exam and one paper. I studied for 10 days for my one exam and still felt unprepared going into it. So, I'm not sure that having an early exam really matters that much in terms of stress or preparedness.

Couple other thoughts:
Everybody can see the exam schedule while registering for classes. If you want a few more days between the end of classes and your first exam, you can plan your schedule accordingly. (This obviously doesn't apply to 1L though, since most of your classes are assigned.)

You'll be graded on a curve and nobody has the benefit of extra study days. You might go into an exam wishing that you'd had more time to prepare, but everybody else feels the same way.

[orphanarium]

...

[Aeroplane]

How is U Mich's loan forgiveness program for graduates who enter a public interest career. And what does U Mich consider to be public interest? Would academia fall into that category?

Michigan's LRAP is purely income-based, so there is no requirement to be in a public interest job.

Applicants working full-time in a law related occupation and graduating from the University of Michigan Law School in 1986 or later can be considered for the program. (Judicial Clerks are not eligible during their year(s) of clerkship. Fellowships funded by the U of M are also excluded.)

For details see here: --LinkRemoved--

[Lawlcat]

I have heard that Michigan's LRAP is unusually good. I have not done a careful comparison, though.

[Alexandria]

I studied for 10 days for my one exam and still felt unprepared going into it.

Heh. That has to have been the class we had together. I think I studied for close to 10 days for it too.

[rolark]

Hey friends,

I was just looking at the virtual tour and noticed that it mentioned "language tables" in the Lawyers Club dining room: (http://www.law.umich.edu/virtualtour/do ... dining.htm). This seems like a neat way to stay sharp with a language and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with it. Are these tables fairly active, or is it more like an occasional thing that just sounds great in marketing materials?

Thanks!

[Aeroplane]

Hey friends,

I was just looking at the virtual tour and noticed that it mentioned "language tables" in the Lawyers Club dining room: (http://www.law.umich.edu/virtualtour/do ... dining.htm). This seems like a neat way to stay sharp with a language and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with it. Are these tables fairly active, or is it more like an occasional thing that just sounds great in marketing materials?

Thanks!

I'm guessing this is a reference to the language lunches. These take place in the Rec Room of the LC, not the dining hall itself. Pizza & soda is provided for everyone, and LC residents can get a bagged LC lunch if they don't want pizza. The extent to which tables are active just depends on how many people are interested in the years you attend and what other things are going on that given day. The lunches occur every week, but attendance varies. I go to one of the language lunches regularly and to another one sporadically. Sometimes there'll be only 2-3 people, other times there'll be 6+. But you only really need 1-2 other people to get good language practice.

[rolark]

Hey friends,

I was just looking at the virtual tour and noticed that it mentioned "language tables" in the Lawyers Club dining room: (http://www.law.umich.edu/virtualtour/do ... dining.htm). This seems like a neat way to stay sharp with a language and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with it. Are these tables fairly active, or is it more like an occasional thing that just sounds great in marketing materials?

Thanks!

I'm guessing this is a reference to the language lunches. These take place in the Rec Room of the LC, not the dining hall itself. Pizza & soda is provided for everyone, and LC residents can get a bagged LC lunch if they don't want pizza. The extent to which tables are active just depends on how many people are interested in the years you attend and what other things are going on that given day. The lunches occur every week, but attendance varies. I go to one of the language lunches regularly and to another one sporadically. Sometimes there'll be only 2-3 people, other times there'll be 6+. But you only really need 1-2 other people to get good language practice.

Does this mean anyone, not just LC residents, may attend?

[T14_Scholly]

How many classes can you skip at Michigan before it affects your grade?

[Lermontov]

Michigan and Penn are probably roughly equal in this regard, with Michigan perhaps slightly stronger.

These look at it in different ways:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2006 ... hing.shtml

I'm going to outright troll for Michigan here: the most relevant metrics are the ones for recent tenure-track hires (second report), and Solum's figures for 2007-9 show a big advantage to Michigan. Adjusting for class size makes the difference smaller than the absolute figures below indicate, but not by nearly enough to make them equal (~250 at Penn v. ~350 at UM).

2009 Michigan: 11
2009 Penn: 2

2008 Michigan: 9
2008 Penn: 1

2007 Michigan: 6
2007 Penn: 3

FWIW: I had the option of going to Penn & chose Michigan.

Edit to add: --LinkRemoved--

Dredging one up from a couple pages ago because I just got my letter a few days ago, and right now Penn and Michigan are my most likely options. The numbers from the typepad blog are way higher in general than those from Leiter.

They're for different years obviously, but Leiter has, over 5 years, Michigan with a total of 22 placements. The numbers you got from Typepad show 26 over three years.

Do you, or anyone that might be in a position to know, think that M has just had a few outlier years, or do you actually think that it comes in second only to Harvard and Yale in placement (which is where the Typepad numbers put it)?

[cardinalandgold]

There seem to be a decent number of Michigan students with spouses on here. Ann Arbor seems like a relatively small city, for those with spouses, how hard was it for your significant other to find a job? And, if you don't mind, what are they doing while you're in school? We both think Michigan could be great and are going to ASW together, but Michigan's unemployment rates/Ann Arbor's small size have us worried about job prospects for her. She's looking primarily for teaching jobs (experienced teacher with a degree from a well known university in the midwest), but would be willing to explore other fields.

Nashville (Vandy) seems like a safer bet for her employment (bigger city/more employed), but Michigan is the better school. Any help/thoughts are appreciated.

This is almost me and my fiancee's exact situation. My top two choices right now are UMich and Vandy. I am pushing for UMich, and she would rather be in Nashville. She is also a teacher and is fearful about not being able to find full-time employment in and around Ann Arbor. She teaches middle school band, so the opportunities may be very limited. We wil be visiting in a couple weeks (not during Preview Weekend unfortunately), so hopefully after visiting she will see the appeal of UMich. I, on the other hand, and already convinced of Michigan's greatness!

[boney09]

Question...when I went to visit other schools a lot of them provided lockers for law students...does michigan do this?

[Lawlcat]

Does this mean anyone, not just LC residents, may attend?

I'm pretty sure this is the case. A large number of LLMs go.

Question...when I went to visit other schools a lot of them provided lockers for law students...does michigan do this?

Yes; there are a bunch of lockers downstairs in Hutchins, which is the building where all the classes are held. There is a vending machine in the locker area with a little animated graphic of a shark on the screen. I believe it is encouraging you to attack candy bars as fiercely as a great white would attack fish.

[Aeroplane]

I'm going to outright troll for Michigan here: the most relevant metrics are the ones for recent tenure-track hires (second report), and Solum's figures for 2007-9 show a big advantage to Michigan. Adjusting for class size makes the difference smaller than the absolute figures below indicate, but not by nearly enough to make them equal (~250 at Penn v. ~350 at UM).

2009 Michigan: 11
2009 Penn: 2

2008 Michigan: 9
2008 Penn: 1

2007 Michigan: 6
2007 Penn: 3

FWIW: I had the option of going to Penn & chose Michigan.

Edit to add: --LinkRemoved--

Dredging one up from a couple pages ago because I just got my letter a few days ago, and right now Penn and Michigan are my most likely options. The numbers from the typepad blog are way higher in general than those from Leiter.

They're for different years obviously, but Leiter has, over 5 years, Michigan with a total of 22 placements. The numbers you got from Typepad show 26 over three years.

Do you, or anyone that might be in a position to know, think that M has just had a few outlier years, or do you actually think that it comes in second only to Harvard and Yale in placement (which is where the Typepad numbers put it)?

I don't want to assert that Michigan is second only to H & Y, especially because the Solum numbers don't control for class size, but I do think Michigan does better than Penn by a non-trivial amount. I'm not qualified to say whose numbers are better, Solum's or Leiter's. I also don't know if the last few years were outliers or not.

Edit: just realized Leiter's figures were from 2006, so the 5 year period he's talking about must be 2001-2005 or 2002-2006. So that would explain there being a difference. In any case, his numbers also show Michigan as a clear winner over Penn.

[cardinalandgold]

Do any of you current Mich students have any dogs? If we go with Michigan, we will be bringing our two dogs with us. Are most appartment complexes around Ann Arbor pet friendly? Is it hard to find a place that will accept multiple dogs?

[Aeroplane]

Does this mean anyone, not just LC residents, may attend?

I'm pretty sure this is the case. A large number of LLMs go.

This is right, you don't have to be an LC resident.

[starstruck393]

Do any of you current Mich students have any dogs? If we go with Michigan, we will be bringing our two dogs with us. Are most appartment complexes around Ann Arbor pet friendly? Is it hard to find a place that will accept multiple dogs?

Dogs are tough, but you'd find that in any city you go to rent. I'm sure there are some dog friendly complexes, though not as many as for cats.

[JRMjr]

There seem to be a decent number of Michigan students with spouses on here. Ann Arbor seems like a relatively small city, for those with spouses, how hard was it for your significant other to find a job? And, if you don't mind, what are they doing while you're in school? We both think Michigan could be great and are going to ASW together, but Michigan's unemployment rates/Ann Arbor's small size have us worried about job prospects for her. She's looking primarily for teaching jobs (experienced teacher with a degree from a well known university in the midwest), but would be willing to explore other fields.

Nashville (Vandy) seems like a safer bet for her employment (bigger city/more employed), but Michigan is the better school. Any help/thoughts are appreciated.

This is almost me and my fiancee's exact situation. My top two choices right now are UMich and Vandy. I am pushing for UMich, and she would rather be in Nashville. She is also a teacher and is fearful about not being able to find full-time employment in and around Ann Arbor. She teaches middle school band, so the opportunities may be very limited. We wil be visiting in a couple weeks (not during Preview Weekend unfortunately), so hopefully after visiting she will see the appeal of UMich. I, on the other hand, and already convinced of Michigan's greatness!

Same spot choosing btwn Michigan and Vandy but I chose Michigan. Wife-to-be is currently job searching and there are definitely jobs.... are they ideal? not always but I'm sure you can land something to pay the bills while you keep searching. Nashville is FAR better for jobs overall

[Lawlcat]

Edit: just realized Leiter's figures were from 2006, so the 5 year period he's talking about must be 2001-2005 or 2002-2006. So that would explain there being a difference. In any case, his numbers also show Michigan as a clear winner over Penn.

Well, it's easily remedied with some math. The size of each class-year was computed generally by dividing the student body by 3; not ultra-precise, but any tiny fluctuation is probably being rounded off anyway. I'm guessing the Georgetown numbers I found on their wiki include the night program. I haven't adjusted for that, nor have I adjusted for Michigan's summer starters class.

1. TIE: HARVARD (26), YALE (26)
3. TIE: CALIFORNIA – Berkeley (11), MICHIGAN (11)
5. TIE: COLUMBIA (10), NEW YORK UNIVERSITY (10), STANFORD (10)
8. CHICAGO (6)
9. TIE: GEORGETOWN (3), MINNESOTA (3)

1. Yale: 13.8%
2. Harvard: 4.7%
3. Stanford: 5.6%
4. Berkeley: 3.9%
5. Chicago: 3.1%
6. Michigan: 2.9%
7. Columbia: 2.4%
8. NYU: 1.8%
9. Minnesota: 1.1%
10. Georgetown: .4%

and without Yale:


Per capita numbers probably make more sense if you're trying to compute "what are my odds of getting a position". Then again, even at top schools which are not Yale you're talking about a tiny, tiny fraction of students. (Also: I figure a good part of this is the inclinations of the student body. For instance, Columbia is an outstanding school, but I guess a lot of its students get sucked into the NY biglaw market or something.) I'd at a glance break it down into these groups:

1. Yale (14%)
2. Stanford, Harvard (within 1% of 5%)
3. Berkeley, Chicago, Michigan, Columbia (within 1% of 3%)
(there is a good argument for putting Berkeley up in 2)

I suppose you could add

4. NYU, Minnesota, U Penn. (hovering around 1%; NYU arguably belongs in category 3 above)

After that, you're talking about schools that send substantially less than 1%. If comparing 3% to 5% is splitting hairs and making meaningless distinctions about a very small population of geniuses, comparing .5% to .7% is really crazy.


I do feel compelled to add that I think Michigan in general takes some hits for being a bigger school.



Only about 1,410 students with a top 1% LSAT score are generated each year. It's hard for bigger schools like NYU, Harvard, Columbia, and Michigan to pull in a large share of these, which drags average LSAT down. I guess it comes down to what meaningful trait average LSAT measures. It might signal to employers that you probably did very well on the LSAT, but I have a hard time seeing why they'd care about a couple logic games problems when they have your law school grades. If professors teach towards the median student, a higher average LSAT might mean a higher level of instruction. Then again, if the main benefit of having a lot of smart people (yes, with due reservations about equating LSAT scores with intelligence) is having smart fellow students to study with and so on, the average would seem less important. There are also some ways in which a large class provides benefits that aren't measured by US News and the like: for instance, being more likely to find a graduate of your law school at a given firm. (There's a study http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2 ... of_na.html which is based on 40% per capita, 40% number of firms with at least 1 graduate, and 20% number of firms with at least 5 graduates.)

[Lawlcat]

Man. That was some serious procrastination.

[tamlyric]

Man. That was some serious procrastination.

Some serious, productive procrastination. Thanks for sharing!