WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[stratocophic]

Looking at the firms in symplicity and trying to figure out a strategy. A lot of these have little blurbs of info and links to their uninformative websites. I've heard people mention Chambers a lot. I'm not in STL this summer, so I can't just go to school and read what they have there. Should I buy a copy, or is there some way for me to access it online?

I went through the same thing on for PLIP with the conclusion that basically all firms are identical. the best resources people directed me too though were nalpdirectory.com (for seeing how many summer associates the firm has taken the past couple years, and salary), and Vault, which we have a free subscription to if you go through the law school's website.

From the limited information I can usually find, though, each firm is full of smart people and you will work lots of hours. You may or may not hate it. The end.

This can be pretty frustrating because I at least found it impossible to tell firms apart when trying to apply for OCI. The vault website, the career stuff on ATL, and NALP directory are probably are your best resources. NALP has a lot of information on there, and at the very least you can find out what firms want law students to think of them, even if the narratives are pretty interchangeable. The fact is, because WUSTL has 70% preselects, the bidding during OCI isn't nearly as significant as it is at many other schools. You can put in for every firm in your desired markets (unless they've really upped the number of attendees), and prep for interviews by reading their websites etc. The rankings are going to matter for lottery slots, but for preselects, it's pretty irrelevant.

I think you can get a pretty solid feel for the culture of a firm during a callback, for what it's worth. But when it's a list in symplicity, they really all do blend together.

CR. Callbacks are the only real way to distinguish cultures and how you'll fit in.

Another helpful resource is Abovethelaw's Career Center. It's more along the lines of Vault than NALP if I recall correctly, but it's definitely got useful info that's at least worth glancing at.

[fl0w]

another good source is stratocophic because of 50bajillion completed interviews. stat is your firm encyclopedia.

[stratocophic]

another good source is stratocophic because of 50bajillion completed interviews. stat is your firm encyclopedia.

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

Also, I love having a job where I can post or w/e from work and they don't care - I see that you do too lol

[manofjustice]

How was 2010 OCI compared to 2009?

[Wooostl2012]

How was 2010 OCI compared to 2009?

Don't think anyone who would have gone through OCI in 2009 posts in here regularly.

I did OCI in 2010 (so just before my 2L year started). It was okay, but a number of firms you'd expect at Wash U didn't show up (Kirkland, Sidley, etc. - My experience in Chicago slanted because that was my preferred market). Those firms instead made use of the resume drop, which does indeed generate invites (I got a few call-back type interviews this way), but not on a large scale basis.

From what I understand, those firms were back on campus last year. The only firm that came for us that I didn't see back was SullCrom, so I think OCI in 2011 was better, even if still disappointing. I'll leave the discussions on that one to the people who went through it, as many of them post in here.

The reality at Wash U is that unless you're in the top 25%ish of the class, OCI is going to be tough. I wouldn't depend on offers out of OCI unless I was in the top 10% at a minimum, maybe even top 5%, barring special circumstances. I would seriously consider doing the city specific interview sessions (D.C., NY, etc.) as I know several people who got offers out of them, in addition to obviously Loyola if I could do IP.

Otherwise plan to mass mail, network, pray, wait, etc.

[stratocophic]

Quick protip for any 1Ls who are listening, since I'm thinking about it. I knew better, was dumb/lazy enough not to do much of it, but I was also lucky/IP-y enough for it not to matter - you'd best be mass mailing like madmen. Like. Madmen. Spend the next 2 weeks getting prepped (i.e. writing cover letters, getting addresses off of NALP, identifying firms that do what you want in markets [take note of that "s," it's there for a reason] that you want to be in), then make it rain envelopes just before July 1st. You've got about a 75% chance that you're going to have no offer or just one offer (which may or may not be located where you want to be, and may or may not be for what you want to do), so you'd better be doing everything you can to get that number closer to an even coinflip.

They sittin in their offices
they snatchin the T14 people up
tryna hire em so y'all need to
send your resume, send your transcript
send your resume, send your transcript
send your resume, send your transcript
and send your writing sample
cause they dingin errbody out here
so you can run and tell that homeboy

[soccerfreak]

Quote: The reality at Wash U is that unless you're in the top 25%ish of the class, OCI is going to be tough. I wouldn't depend on offers out of OCI unless I was in the top 10% at a minimum, maybe even top 5%, barring special circumstances.

A little confused here. OCI isn't tough in the top 25%, but don't expect an offer unless you're top 5%?

[fl0w]

Quick protip for any 1Ls who are listening, since I'm thinking about it. I knew better, was dumb/lazy enough not to do much of it, but I was also lucky/IP-y enough for it not to matter - you'd best be mass mailing like madmen. Like. Madmen. Spend the next 2 weeks getting prepped (i.e. writing cover letters, getting addresses off of NALP, identifying firms that do what you want in markets [take note of that "s," it's there for a reason] that you want to be in), then make it rain envelopes just before July 1st. You've got about a 75% chance that you're going to have no offer or just one offer (which may or may not be located where you want to be, and may or may not be for what you want to do), so you'd better be doing everything you can to get that number closer to an even coinflip.

They sittin in their offices
they snatchin the T14 people up
tryna hire em so y'all need to
send your resume, send your transcript
send your resume, send your transcript
send your resume, send your transcript
and send your writing sample
cause they dingin errbody out here
so you can run and tell that homeboy

--ImageRemoved--

For real though... credited.
Listen to this man.

[fl0w]

another good source is stratocophic because of 50bajillion completed interviews. stat is your firm encyclopedia.

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

Also, I love having a job where I can post or w/e from work and they don't care - I see that you do too lol

yes my firm gives zero fucks as long as we get done what we say we will get done.

[Wooostl2012]

Quote: The reality at Wash U is that unless you're in the top 25%ish of the class, OCI is going to be tough. I wouldn't depend on offers out of OCI unless I was in the top 10% at a minimum, maybe even top 5%, barring special circumstances.

A little confused here. OCI isn't tough in the top 25%, but don't expect an offer unless you're top 5%?

Sorry, allow me to clarify. Unless you're in the top 25% or so, you basically have no shot at OCI. Saying it'd be tough was a euphemism. Could be different if IP, diverse, etc.

Even if you're above that, and do receive preselect interviews, it's possible and maybe probable to strike out at OCI. I would not feel confident that OCI itself would get me a job offer below the top 10%, possibly top 5% if you're straight through and not that cool of a person.

Mass mail. Network. Now.

[stratocophic]

Quote: The reality at Wash U is that unless you're in the top 25%ish of the class, OCI is going to be tough. I wouldn't depend on offers out of OCI unless I was in the top 10% at a minimum, maybe even top 5%, barring special circumstances.

A little confused here. OCI isn't tough in the top 25%, but don't expect an offer unless you're top 5%?

Sorry, allow me to clarify. Unless you're in the top 25% or so, you basically have no shot at OCI. Saying it'd be tough was a euphemism. Could be different if IP, diverse, etc.

Even if you're above that, and do receive preselect interviews, it's possible and maybe probable to strike out at OCI. I would not feel confident that OCI itself would get me a job offer below the top 10%, possibly top 5% if you're straight through and not that cool of a person.

Mass mail. Network. Now.

Cosigned. No chance isn't literal, but it's close enough that people should be afraid and then use that fear as motivation to work hard at getting a job outside of OCI, whether it be through mass mailing or a job fair. Most of the people I know with "summer associate" next to their names on Facebook or LinkedIn have that phrase immediately followed by a firm that didn't come to OCI. I'm one of them - the selection just isn't that great, as 1Ls reading this will have seen by now, and it doesn't get a whole lot better in later rounds. You can make that up through mass mailing - I interviewed with several heavy hitters in a smaller market that's dominated by a better law school than WashU, and it was because I had ties and mass mailed (and not because of IPSECURE, for the record, as there's basically no IP work in that market). You should all be looking to take advantage of your ties, particularly if you're from a smaller market, and this is your chance to do it. I'd have gotten 0 of those interviews otherwise.

Also, I never used Martindale much because I already knew about most of the firms in my preferred markets, but I think it might be useful in hunting down midsized firms to target in your mailings (others probably know better than me). Everyone knows the big firms and everyone is applying to them - you should too, but putting all of your eggs in that basket is asking for trouble See, e.g., <50 SA spots in big STL firms, probably >1000 applicants for them.

[stratocophic]

another good source is stratocophic because of 50bajillion completed interviews. stat is your firm encyclopedia.

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

Also, I love having a job where I can post or w/e from work and they don't care - I see that you do too lol

yes my firm gives zero fucks as long as we get done what we say we will get done.

The perfect number to give, and for the perfect reason. Re: dat picture: 180

[dietcoke0]

I have a question about the Quadrangle housing at Wash U. Is it a good deal? They look decent on paper, but I seem to remember someone steering people away from them in this thread (could be wrong)

Thank you in advance.

[Wooostl2012]

I have a question about the Quadrangle housing at Wash U. Is it a good deal? They look decent on paper, but I seem to remember someone steering people away from them in this thread (could be wrong)

Thank you in advance.

I think this is really dependent on the building. Quadrangle itself is pretty responsive and easy to work with, but some of the buildings are old and in bad shape. I know of someone who had to be moved mid-year because his apartment wasn't up to code. At the same time, some are really nice.

I think the best answer is that Quadrangle isn't at all necessary in St. Louis, but it might be worth looking at if it's price competitive and you like one of their buildings.

[stratocophic]

I have a question about the Quadrangle housing at Wash U. Is it a good deal? They look decent on paper, but I seem to remember someone steering people away from them in this thread (could be wrong)

Thank you in advance.

I think this is really dependent on the building. Quadrangle itself is pretty responsive and easy to work with, but some of the buildings are old and in bad shape. I know of someone who had to be moved mid-year because his apartment wasn't up to code. At the same time, some are really nice.

I think the best answer is that Quadrangle isn't at all necessary in St. Louis, but it might be worth looking at if it's price competitive and you like one of their buildings.

Agree. I had good experiences with their Castlereagh building - searching this thread for that name should turn up my thoughts on it.

[Kabuo]

Stratocophic,

Is there a way to see which firms are pre-select and which are lotto? Are the ones that are pre-select the ones that list grade cutoffs?

[stratocophic]

Stratocophic,

Is there a way to see which firms are pre-select and which are lotto? Are the ones that are pre-select the ones that list grade cutoffs?

Pretty sure they're all pre-select with some % of interviews taken as lotto picks (30% iirc, but I may not). That's how it was last year, may have changed for you guys but I don't think so.

In light of that fact, let me answer your second question in anticipation of what I suspect you'll want to know next. Here's where it gets frustrating - there's basically no way to tell about grade cutoffs for pre-selects, so far as I know. Obviously Skadden and Kirkland mean it when they say top 10%, but for more regional firms like Husch? Who knows. I think this is where ties and networking come into play. IMO, you stand a better chance at a firm that's in your hometown or where you went to undergrad or where you know somebody than you do with a "lesser" firm where you have none of those things. Bid accordingly, and also bid on Texas because its economy is good and they might believe you if they like you and you come up with a good story for why you want to be in Texas. Worked for me, though I didn't end up in Texas.

The good news is it probably doesn't matter, because there aren't enough firms at OCI to where you can easily leave off 10 firms in your home market that you have a great shot at. The bad news is, well, see the above sentence. Disclaimer: it's the same for the other top 25ish schools, so trolls can save their breath. We've all seen the NLJ numbers.

PS: So help me, Lord Randolph Macduff or whatever your name is, if you're reading this and come in here to start talking about how ties are BS I'll wage a campaign to be made a moderator just so I can banhammer you. This is ARE THRED.

PPS: IP guys, caveat - bid wherever you like. You've got as good a shot as anyone at any firm (within reason - bid away at solid firms like Foley because I think you've got a legit shot, but probably don't waste a bid on Jones Day or Skadden from top 1/3 IMO, etc), just don't double bid on firms that interview you at PLIP.

Aaaand back to work.

[Kabuo]

Bid accordingly, and also bid on Texas because its economy is good and they might believe you if they like you and you come up with a good story for why you want to be in Texas. Worked for me, though I didn't end up in Texas.

Does liking Dirk Nowitzki work? I think I could impersonate a Mavs fan pretty well, actually.

Anyway, I emailed Career Services a couple questions. If they have anything helpful to say, I'll post it here.

[stratocophic]

Bid accordingly, and also bid on Texas because its economy is good and they might believe you if they like you and you come up with a good story for why you want to be in Texas. Worked for me, though I didn't end up in Texas.

Does liking Dirk Nowitzki work? I think I could impersonate a Mavs fan pretty well, actually.

Anyway, I emailed Career Services a couple questions. If they have anything helpful to say, I'll post it here.

Mine was along the lines of "I always figured I'd end up in Texas after undergrad because you've got a lot of engineering work, so I've been prepared to be here since then." That's just laughably bad, so sky's the limit

[soccerfreak]

Bid accordingly, and also bid on Texas because its economy is good and they might believe you if they like you and you come up with a good story for why you want to be in Texas. Worked for me, though I didn't end up in Texas.

Does liking Dirk Nowitzki work? I think I could impersonate a Mavs fan pretty well, actually.

Anyway, I emailed Career Services a couple questions. If they have anything helpful to say, I'll post it here.

Mine was along the lines of "I always figured I'd end up in Texas after undergrad because you've got a lot of engineering work, so I've been prepared to be here since then." That's just laughably bad, so sky's the limit

Without ties, though, I can't really think of much else you would say. Similar to "Why our firm?"

[notedgarfigaro]

Bid accordingly, and also bid on Texas because its economy is good and they might believe you if they like you and you come up with a good story for why you want to be in Texas. Worked for me, though I didn't end up in Texas.

Does liking Dirk Nowitzki work? I think I could impersonate a Mavs fan pretty well, actually.

Anyway, I emailed Career Services a couple questions. If they have anything helpful to say, I'll post it here.

Mine was along the lines of "I always figured I'd end up in Texas after undergrad because you've got a lot of engineering work, so I've been prepared to be here since then." That's just laughably bad, so sky's the limit

Without ties, though, I can't really think of much else you would say. Similar to "Why our firm?"

I know I'm going to talk up how much I hate the BBQ of my homeland, and that beef is far superior.

I'd be lying through my teeth, but jerbs are jerbs.

[Kabuo]

What are people doing for writing samples? I've drafted a few motions for the prosecutor's office I'm working for, and I'm wondering if those are better than the brief or memo we wrote in LP. They're definitely not as long, but is there something to be said for them being real? My boss mentioned to me, unsolicited, that I could use some of them as writing samples as long as I cleared it with her first.

There are some neat legal arguments in a few of them, but none are quite as in depth as in the open brief. I guess I really just don't want to look at my LP assignments ever again to revise them, but I will if those make better writing samples.

[fl0w]

What are people doing for writing samples? I've drafted a few motions for the prosecutor's office I'm working for, and I'm wondering if those are better than the brief or memo we wrote in LP. They're definitely not as long, but is there something to be said for them being real? My boss mentioned to me, unsolicited, that I could use some of them as writing samples as long as I cleared it with her first.

There are some neat legal arguments in a few of them, but none are quite as in depth as in the open brief. I guess I really just don't want to look at my LP assignments ever again to revise them, but I will if those make better writing samples.

I personally used my LP memo because I worked for a judge and was not allowed to use anything from the court as a writing sample. Shame, because it was good stuff since freaking federal clerks were reviewing. In terms of length, I trimmed the LP memo to a 5pg sample that only focused on the most interesting argument.

I know a lot of people say 10 page limit but that, by no means, indicates they actually need you to give them 10 pages. I went with my strongest 5 and it served me well.

Advantage of using LP memo? Presumeably your prof spent more time on it than would a reviewing atty on something you do this summer. You have spent more time on it. Prof has presumeably given you the areas to improve to make it into a writing sample (they all know that's what these get used for).

Advantages for using summer work? It's more recent. You think it's cooler because it's not class.

I would really consider how meticulously your reviewer may or may not have looked at whatever you choose. For me, the TA and LP prof were really great and I was happy with what I turned in. I would have considered using something from the court because clerks are extremely meticulous; however the court also uses stock language and I probably would have opted for my own "voice" anyway.

Not sure if this is the kind of advice you are looking for. I have a really good template for trimming your LP memo if that interests you. Feel free to get in touch if you know me, or PM me if you don't.

[bjsesq]

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

Also, I love having a job where I can post or w/e from work and they don't care - I see that you do too lol

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

I'm a veritable suppository.

I cannot stop laughing. <3 you, dude.

[stratocophic]

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

Also, I love having a job where I can post or w/e from work and they don't care - I see that you do too lol

More a function of having read 50 bajillion gigs of data on firms IMO, but I suppose the two things are intertwined. I'm a veritable suppository of firm information now.

I'm a veritable suppository.

I cannot stop laughing. <3 you, dude.

*Fistbump* Love that joke. I was beginning to get offended that my hilarity went unappreciated for so long, thx for saving it