Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[AllTheLawz]

I am accepted at HLS, waiting to hear about financial aid, but I know that Harvard typically is not very generous. I have also been accepted at Columbia as a Hamilton fellow, which offers full tuition (worth $174 000) for all three years. I am considering between the 2 schools. Any advice from current students?

Wait and see how much money you get from HLS, return here and tell us how much you get.

Im going to disagree... take the Hamilton and don't look back. Harvard has nothing for you worth the Hamilton.

[ph14]

I am accepted at HLS, waiting to hear about financial aid, but I know that Harvard typically is not very generous. I have also been accepted at Columbia as a Hamilton fellow, which offers full tuition (worth $174 000) for all three years. I am considering between the 2 schools. Any advice from current students?

Wait and see how much money you get from HLS, return here and tell us how much you get.

Im going to disagree... take the Hamilton and don't look back. Harvard has nothing for you worth the Hamilton.

This is probably credited but what I meant to say was there's no point debating this now.

[Mista Bojangles]

I am accepted at HLS, waiting to hear about financial aid, but I know that Harvard typically is not very generous. I have also been accepted at Columbia as a Hamilton fellow, which offers full tuition (worth $174 000) for all three years. I am considering between the 2 schools. Any advice from current students?

HLS 1L probably not perfectly qualified to answer this question, but if i had been lucky enough to be in your shoes, a hamilton vs. HLS at sticker is not a question i'd think twice about (as i stare down $180k+ in debt)

if it ends up being hamilton vs. the maximum need-based grant from HLS, then i might feel i was facing a real decision worth the research and due diligence. due diligence i never needed to give, as i was never in your position - but seriously, congratulations

[tirakon]

According to the SPIF website, judicial internships (which are typically unpaid) are apparently not eligible for summer funding:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... yment.html

How do HLS students pursue these opportunities? Is there another source through Harvard for funding?

[ph14]

According to the SPIF website, judicial internships (which are typically unpaid) are apparently not eligible for summer funding:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... yment.html

How do HLS students pursue these opportunities? Is there another source through Harvard for funding?

Nope. Outside resources or pay their own living expenses for the summer. I definitely think that if they are going to be funding other public interest and government jobs they should fund judicial internships, but apparently HLS disagrees.

[DoubleChecks]

I am accepted at HLS, waiting to hear about financial aid, but I know that Harvard typically is not very generous. I have also been accepted at Columbia as a Hamilton fellow, which offers full tuition (worth $174 000) for all three years. I am considering between the 2 schools. Any advice from current students?

Wait and see how much money you get from HLS, return here and tell us how much you get.

Im going to disagree... take the Hamilton and don't look back. Harvard has nothing for you worth the Hamilton.

This is probably credited but what I meant to say was there's no point debating this now.

Yes, it is a better way to state a blanket statement without it being as blanket

At least see how much HLS offers first.

[tomwatts]

Nope. Outside resources or pay their own living expenses for the summer. I definitely think that if they are going to be funding other public interest and government jobs they should fund judicial internships, but apparently HLS disagrees.

I asked about this last year, and I was told that SPIF is intended to help students pursue things that they might eventually have a career in, and the judicial internships are just internships, not stepping stones to a career as a judicial intern. Thus, they're not covered, because they're outside the scope of SPIF.

I didn't think this really made sense, but it was what someone who would know said.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Nope. Outside resources or pay their own living expenses for the summer. I definitely think that if they are going to be funding other public interest and government jobs they should fund judicial internships, but apparently HLS disagrees.

I asked about this last year, and I was told that SPIF is intended to help students pursue things that they might eventually have a career in, and the judicial internships are just internships, not stepping stones to a career as a judicial intern. Thus, they're not covered, because they're outside the scope of SPIF.

I didn't think this really made sense, but it was what someone who would know said.

Also as a matter of policy, I think not for profit organizations that most students end up going to are in more dire need of volunteer legal help than judges.

[anela00]

I am accepted at HLS, waiting to hear about financial aid, but I know that Harvard typically is not very generous. I have also been accepted at Columbia as a Hamilton fellow, which offers full tuition (worth $174 000) for all three years. I am considering between the 2 schools. Any advice from current students?

HLS 1L probably not perfectly qualified to answer this question, but if i had been lucky enough to be in your shoes, a hamilton vs. HLS at sticker is not a question i'd think twice about (as i stare down $180k+ in debt)

if it ends up being hamilton vs. the maximum need-based grant from HLS, then i might feel i was facing a real decision worth the research and due diligence. due diligence i never needed to give, as i was never in your position - but seriously, congratulations

What about Darrow at Michigan vs. Harvard? Like the previous poster, I haven't received any financial aid info from Harvard yet (the application doesn't even open until the 15th). But I doubt I will get much need-based aid from Harvard.

[AllTheLawz]

I am accepted at HLS, waiting to hear about financial aid, but I know that Harvard typically is not very generous. I have also been accepted at Columbia as a Hamilton fellow, which offers full tuition (worth $174 000) for all three years. I am considering between the 2 schools. Any advice from current students?

HLS 1L probably not perfectly qualified to answer this question, but if i had been lucky enough to be in your shoes, a hamilton vs. HLS at sticker is not a question i'd think twice about (as i stare down $180k+ in debt)

if it ends up being hamilton vs. the maximum need-based grant from HLS, then i might feel i was facing a real decision worth the research and due diligence. due diligence i never needed to give, as i was never in your position - but seriously, congratulations

What about Darrow at Michigan vs. Harvard? Like the previous poster, I haven't received any financial aid info from Harvard yet (the application doesn't even open until the 15th). But I doubt I will get much need-based aid from Harvard.

Turned down Darrow and equivalent scholarships at most of the top 15 or schools for H w/ about 35k/yr aid (which will decrease after my 2L summer) and I still wonder if I made the right decision. If it was Darrow vs. H with little or no aid I wouldn't think twice about taking the Darrow.

[DoubleChecks]

Turned down Darrow and equivalent scholarships at most of the top 15 or schools for H w/ about 35k/yr aid (which will decrease after my 2L summer) and I still wonder if I made the right decision. If it was Darrow vs. H with little or no aid I wouldn't think twice about taking the Darrow.

Really? If you don't mind me asking, any specific reason for this semi-regret? Are you currently a 1L or a 2L? I can't imagine taking Michigan over HLS (assuming nothing personally tying me to Michigan) just to save $15k a yr for 3 yrs, but I guess I'm a risk-averse prestige whore lol.

[AllTheLawz]

Turned down Darrow and equivalent scholarships at most of the top 15 or schools for H w/ about 35k/yr aid (which will decrease after my 2L summer) and I still wonder if I made the right decision. If it was Darrow vs. H with little or no aid I wouldn't think twice about taking the Darrow.

Really? If you don't mind me asking, any specific reason for this semi-regret? Are you currently a 1L or a 2L? I can't imagine taking Michigan over HLS (assuming nothing personally tying me to Michigan) just to save $15k a yr for 3 yrs, but I guess I'm a risk-averse prestige whore lol.

The difference was actually something like 15k year 1, 21k year 2 (there is a second year stipend), and 32k year 3 (SA kills need-based aid). Thats a probable 68k before you even consider COL differences. In all likelihood I would have graduated Michigan with 25k or less in law school debt versus the 125k Harvard will end up costing me. Given that I now have no interest in clerking and zero interest in academia (in fact, law school has pushed me to hate legal academia with a passion).

I mean, I almost certainly would not have ended up at the firm I am going to this summer from Michigan (one of the top 3 boston firms) but I am pretty confident I would have ended up with something market paying. I think that if all you are looking for is a market paying firm job then you should take a hard look at the top scholarships from any of the top 10 schools.

[delusional]

Turned down Darrow and equivalent scholarships at most of the top 15 or schools for H w/ about 35k/yr aid (which will decrease after my 2L summer) and I still wonder if I made the right decision. If it was Darrow vs. H with little or no aid I wouldn't think twice about taking the Darrow.

Really? If you don't mind me asking, any specific reason for this semi-regret? Are you currently a 1L or a 2L? I can't imagine taking Michigan over HLS (assuming nothing personally tying me to Michigan) just to save $15k a yr for 3 yrs, but I guess I'm a risk-averse prestige whore lol.

The difference was actually something like 15k year 1, 21k year 2 (there is a second year stipend), and 32k year 3 (SA kills need-based aid). Thats a probable 68k before you even consider COL differences. In all likelihood I would have graduated Michigan with 25k or less in law school debt versus the 125k Harvard will end up costing me. Given that I now have no interest in clerking and zero interest in academia (in fact, law school has pushed me to hate legal academia with a passion).

I mean, I almost certainly would not have ended up at the firm I am going to this summer from Michigan (one of the top 3 boston firms) but I am pretty confident I would have ended up with something market paying. I think that if all you are looking for is a market paying firm job then you should take a hard look at the top scholarships from any of the top 10 schools.

You don't know that you would have gotten a market paying job at Michigan - about half the class doesn't. And if you didn't get it at Harvard, a much lower possibility, you wouldn't have had to worry about the debt as much. It's easy to say that an insurance policy was a waste of money after it expires and your building didn't explode.

[ph14]

Really? If you don't mind me asking, any specific reason for this semi-regret? Are you currently a 1L or a 2L? I can't imagine taking Michigan over HLS (assuming nothing personally tying me to Michigan) just to save $15k a yr for 3 yrs, but I guess I'm a risk-averse prestige whore lol.

The difference was actually something like 15k year 1, 21k year 2 (there is a second year stipend), and 32k year 3 (SA kills need-based aid). Thats a probable 68k before you even consider COL differences. In all likelihood I would have graduated Michigan with 25k or less in law school debt versus the 125k Harvard will end up costing me. Given that I now have no interest in clerking and zero interest in academia (in fact, law school has pushed me to hate legal academia with a passion).

I mean, I almost certainly would not have ended up at the firm I am going to this summer from Michigan (one of the top 3 boston firms) but I am pretty confident I would have ended up with something market paying. I think that if all you are looking for is a market paying firm job then you should take a hard look at the top scholarships from any of the top 10 schools.

You don't know that you would have gotten a market paying job at Michigan - about half the class doesn't. And if you didn't get it at Harvard, a much lower possibility, you wouldn't have had to worry about the debt as much. It's easy to say that an insurance policy was a waste of money after it expires and your building didn't explode.

Yeah, but if you didn't get the market paying job on a full scholarship you aren't in debt, you just have the time commitment. And if you get a market paying job while on full scholarship then you are taking home a lot more money. Plus on a full ride you have much more freedom to pursue alternative job opportunities besides firms or even leave law entirely.

[AllTheLawz]

Really? If you don't mind me asking, any specific reason for this semi-regret? Are you currently a 1L or a 2L? I can't imagine taking Michigan over HLS (assuming nothing personally tying me to Michigan) just to save $15k a yr for 3 yrs, but I guess I'm a risk-averse prestige whore lol.

The difference was actually something like 15k year 1, 21k year 2 (there is a second year stipend), and 32k year 3 (SA kills need-based aid). Thats a probable 68k before you even consider COL differences. In all likelihood I would have graduated Michigan with 25k or less in law school debt versus the 125k Harvard will end up costing me. Given that I now have no interest in clerking and zero interest in academia (in fact, law school has pushed me to hate legal academia with a passion).

I mean, I almost certainly would not have ended up at the firm I am going to this summer from Michigan (one of the top 3 boston firms) but I am pretty confident I would have ended up with something market paying. I think that if all you are looking for is a market paying firm job then you should take a hard look at the top scholarships from any of the top 10 schools.

You don't know that you would have gotten a market paying job at Michigan - about half the class doesn't. And if you didn't get it at Harvard, a much lower possibility, you wouldn't have had to worry about the debt as much. It's easy to say that an insurance policy was a waste of money after it expires and your building didn't explode.

Ehh.. taking HYS over a full scholarship from a top 10 school is more like paying to earthquake proof a building in Tennessee. My case was somewhat unique since I would receive the maximum need-based aid available for a single student at any of HYS. One thing that isn't mentioned much is that the people who get full scholarships typically have a number of things that would make them attractive candidates for jobs beyond grades and test scores. As a result the risk of them "striking out" is often significantly less than the 30-40% you would attach to a random member of the class. If you are the type of person that strikes out at a top 10 school after receiving that type of scholarship, the truth is that you might have been in danger of doing the same at H.

In the end I chose H partially due to personal reasons beyond money (there is a certain symbolism to the place when you come from the type of background that gets you max aid). For anyone for which money is a significant factor I would never recommend HYS over a full scholarship at any of the top 10ish schools unless you absolutely know that you have a very, very strong interest in clerking and academia. HYS definitely provides a buffer and if you have a decent resume and interpersonal skills biglaw is close to an absolute guarantee. But for 90% of the people that get these top scholarships it would difficult to find a risk-tolerance level that would really make that buffer worth $100k+

[delusional]

The difference was actually something like 15k year 1, 21k year 2 (there is a second year stipend), and 32k year 3 (SA kills need-based aid). Thats a probable 68k before you even consider COL differences. In all likelihood I would have graduated Michigan with 25k or less in law school debt versus the 125k Harvard will end up costing me. Given that I now have no interest in clerking and zero interest in academia (in fact, law school has pushed me to hate legal academia with a passion).

I mean, I almost certainly would not have ended up at the firm I am going to this summer from Michigan (one of the top 3 boston firms) but I am pretty confident I would have ended up with something market paying. I think that if all you are looking for is a market paying firm job then you should take a hard look at the top scholarships from any of the top 10 schools.

You don't know that you would have gotten a market paying job at Michigan - about half the class doesn't. And if you didn't get it at Harvard, a much lower possibility, you wouldn't have had to worry about the debt as much. It's easy to say that an insurance policy was a waste of money after it expires and your building didn't explode.

Ehh.. taking HYS over a full scholarship from a top 10 school is more like paying to earthquake proof a building in Tennessee. My case was somewhat unique since I would receive the maximum need-based aid available for a single student at any of HYS. One thing that isn't mentioned much is that the people who get full scholarships typically have a number of things that would make them attractive candidates for jobs beyond grades and test scores. As a result the risk of them "striking out" is often significantly less than the 30-40% you would attach to a random member of the class. If you are the type of person that strikes out at a top 10 school after receiving that type of scholarship, the truth is that you might have been in danger of doing the same at H.

In the end I chose H partially due to personal reasons beyond money (there is a certain symbolism to the place when you come from the type of background that gets you max aid). For anyone for which money is a significant factor I would never recommend HYS over a full scholarship at any of the top 10ish schools unless you absolutely know that you have a very, very strong interest in clerking and academia. HYS definitely provides a buffer and if you have a decent resume and interpersonal skills biglaw is close to an absolute guarantee. But for 90% of the people that get these top scholarships it would difficult to find a risk-tolerance level that would really make that buffer worth $100k+

Okay. I felt the opposite - I could get scholarships based on numbers but employers wouldn't care for my LSAT and GPA. And there also tends to be a correlation between the "symbolism" aspect and need based aid; or at least there was for me. I don't think that we disagree so much as our experiences put us on different ends of the same answer.

[DoubleChecks]

Turned down Darrow and equivalent scholarships at most of the top 15 or schools for H w/ about 35k/yr aid (which will decrease after my 2L summer) and I still wonder if I made the right decision. If it was Darrow vs. H with little or no aid I wouldn't think twice about taking the Darrow.

Really? If you don't mind me asking, any specific reason for this semi-regret? Are you currently a 1L or a 2L? I can't imagine taking Michigan over HLS (assuming nothing personally tying me to Michigan) just to save $15k a yr for 3 yrs, but I guess I'm a risk-averse prestige whore lol.

The difference was actually something like 15k year 1, 21k year 2 (there is a second year stipend), and 32k year 3 (SA kills need-based aid). Thats a probable 68k before you even consider COL differences. In all likelihood I would have graduated Michigan with 25k or less in law school debt versus the 125k Harvard will end up costing me. Given that I now have no interest in clerking and zero interest in academia (in fact, law school has pushed me to hate legal academia with a passion).

I mean, I almost certainly would not have ended up at the firm I am going to this summer from Michigan (one of the top 3 boston firms) but I am pretty confident I would have ended up with something market paying. I think that if all you are looking for is a market paying firm job then you should take a hard look at the top scholarships from any of the top 10 schools.

I get what you're saying, esp. in your later post (unquoted), but Boston is THAT much more expensive than Ann Arbor? It costs twice as much in COL, to go from 25k or less debt to 125k (68k of which is tuition) HLS debt? I sort of want to challenge you a bit on those figures lol, since that would make Ann Arbor significantly cheaper than even TX, and TX is pretty cheap lol. I feel like the Michigan numbers would be a bit higher, and the HLS ones a bit lower. All this is rather moot, of course, since it doesn't change your ultimate point about not wanting to clerk or do academia.

But maybe you're right -- maybe for 90% looking for market paying jobs anywhere, full ride to T10 is better than HLS w/ max or near max aid. If you said T10 full ride vs. HLS no $$$, I would say yes, easy answer that you could generalize...but for max/near max aid? Again, maybe I'm just more risk averse lol.

[AllTheLawz]

I get what you're saying, esp. in your later post (unquoted), but Boston is THAT much more expensive than Ann Arbor? It costs twice as much in COL, to go from 25k or less debt to 125k (68k of which is tuition) HLS debt? I sort of want to challenge you a bit on those figures lol, since that would make Ann Arbor significantly cheaper than even TX, and TX is pretty cheap lol. I feel like the Michigan numbers would be a bit higher, and the HLS ones a bit lower. All this is rather moot, of course, since it doesn't change your ultimate point about not wanting to clerk or do academia.

But maybe you're right -- maybe for 90% looking for market paying jobs anywhere, full ride to T10 is better than HLS w/ max or near max aid. If you said T10 full ride vs. HLS no $$$, I would say yes, easy answer that you could generalize...but for max/near max aid? Again, maybe I'm just more risk averse lol.

Sorry, I should've been more clear about the numbers. I believe my original numbers assumed zero COL loans 3L year at Michigan (due to 2L SA savings) vs the usual COL loans at H plus a 5-7% annual tuition increase at H that you wouldn't have to deal with at Michigan (the "base loan" for calculating finaid at Harvard increases every year). For financial aid recipients, SA positions have a huge impact at Harvard that I don't think enough people realize. You basically net only a little less than 8k in the summer b/c of the reduction in grant aid and, after summer spending, really dont have much, if anything, left to defray COL expenses for the year. Once you account for that the difference between the two schools definitely approaches 100k.

[PriOSky]

Other than corporations, what are some good black letter law classes (strict bbl, little or no policy stuff, ideally 3-hour final exam) for 2Ls?

[AllTheLawz]

Other than corporations, what are some good black letter law classes (strict bbl, little or no policy stuff, ideally 3-hour final exam) for 2Ls?

Varies by professor just as much as class... even for corporations, some professors are more policy focused than others. One of the most strict black letter classes is probably tax and even that usually has a policy question or two.

[ph14]

Other than corporations, what are some good black letter law classes (strict bbl, little or no policy stuff, ideally 3-hour final exam) for 2Ls?

Varies by professor just as much as class... even for corporations, some professors are more policy focused than others. One of the most strict black letter classes is probably tax and even that usually has a policy question or two.

Agree completely. One class that might be good is evidence, but if you take it with Nesson, for example, your exam will probably be all policy. I get the sense that generally professors are more BLL heavy though in that class.

[DoubleChecks]

I get what you're saying, esp. in your later post (unquoted), but Boston is THAT much more expensive than Ann Arbor? It costs twice as much in COL, to go from 25k or less debt to 125k (68k of which is tuition) HLS debt? I sort of want to challenge you a bit on those figures lol, since that would make Ann Arbor significantly cheaper than even TX, and TX is pretty cheap lol. I feel like the Michigan numbers would be a bit higher, and the HLS ones a bit lower. All this is rather moot, of course, since it doesn't change your ultimate point about not wanting to clerk or do academia.

But maybe you're right -- maybe for 90% looking for market paying jobs anywhere, full ride to T10 is better than HLS w/ max or near max aid. If you said T10 full ride vs. HLS no $$$, I would say yes, easy answer that you could generalize...but for max/near max aid? Again, maybe I'm just more risk averse lol.

Sorry, I should've been more clear about the numbers. I believe my original numbers assumed zero COL loans 3L year at Michigan (due to 2L SA savings) vs the usual COL loans at H plus a 5-7% annual tuition increase at H that you wouldn't have to deal with at Michigan (the "base loan" for calculating finaid at Harvard increases every year). For financial aid recipients, SA positions have a huge impact at Harvard that I don't think enough people realize. You basically net only a little less than 8k in the summer b/c of the reduction in grant aid and, after summer spending, really dont have much, if anything, left to defray COL expenses for the year. Once you account for that the difference between the two schools definitely approaches 100k.

Sorry, I'm not too adept that calculating/understanding finaid, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance on this topic. So what you're essentially saying is, long story short, at UMich you'd be able to "keep" all the 2L SA money you made whereas at HLS it somewhat "cancels" out with the finaid you're given. Add that amount to the $68k and you're at roughly $100k. Gotcha.

[DoubleChecks]

Other than corporations, what are some good black letter law classes (strict bbl, little or no policy stuff, ideally 3-hour final exam) for 2Ls?

Above answers credited. HLS also seems to do more policy type questions than other T14 law schools (or outside of T10 law schools at least; I have no specific information on the others). There, bll and rote memorization are a bit more common.

[KaNa1986]

Other than corporations, what are some good black letter law classes (strict bbl, little or no policy stuff, ideally 3-hour final exam) for 2Ls?

Above answers credited. HLS also seems to do more policy type questions than other T14 law schools (or outside of T10 law schools at least; I have no specific information on the others). There, bll and rote memorization are a bit more common.

What are ways to do well on those policy questions? I had a professor (he had Yale JD) 1L fall who told us that there are only two types of questions on the exams: issues spotters and bs questions. He said he didn't gave bs questions, and he had all issue spotters on his final exam.

[ph14]

Other than corporations, what are some good black letter law classes (strict bbl, little or no policy stuff, ideally 3-hour final exam) for 2Ls?

Above answers credited. HLS also seems to do more policy type questions than other T14 law schools (or outside of T10 law schools at least; I have no specific information on the others). There, bll and rote memorization are a bit more common.

What are ways to do well on those policy questions? I had a professor (he had Yale JD) 1L fall who told us that there are only two types of questions on the exams: issues spotters and bs questions. He said he didn't gave bs questions, and he had all issue spotters on his final exam.

Read the policy section on Getting to Maybe. I think that issue spotters are generally worth a larger portion of your grade however, and are easier to differentiate yourself on. I'd guess the spread is much more concentrated on policy questions.