So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[PeanutsNJam]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

How do you convince yourself to go T14 --> BigLaw? By believing that happiness in the field exists.

Have you ever worked in biglaw? What is your exposure to the field.

[Rahviveh]

I've been an M&A lawyer for 15 years. There are pluses:

- you get to work with executives in some of the most important moments of their careers
- you get to work with smart people
- you get to work on challenging problems (or at a minimum, be challenged by arduous tasks)
- the intensity of the work can give rise to strong relationships with clients and co-workers from having done battle together
- the practice is increasingly global
- there is less bureaucracy and time spent in meetings than I think in most corporate jobs
- there is less travel than consulting or banking, meaning that after the junior associate years it's possible to eat healthy and exercise
- given low overall economic growth, globalization and technological disruption, seems like there will be work to do for a while
- if you stick with it at the right firm, it's special to work alongside the same team of professional colleagues over the long-term

There are also many downsides, chief among them being the unpredictability of the work. It feels like working as an emergency first responder, prepared to drop everything at a moment's notice. That requires one's life to be re-configured around flexibility as the organizing principle. It's easy to look back and see different alternatives as superior, but the ideal alternative occupation changes over time -- perhaps investment banking fifteen years ago, PE ten years ago, tech startups last year, maybe computer programming/AI today. But as I look at my colleagues from college and law school today, I see a lot of difficulties encountered in other professions too. Overall I'm satisfied with my career.

(Equity partner satisfied with his career)

[Tls2016]

Tuition at Harvard is $59,550 for 2016-2017
Tuition at Harvard was $26,745 for 2000-2001 ($36,768 in 2014 dollars)

https://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpres ... w%20School

[jbagelboy]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

I'm not a corp associate and this isn't really directed at me, but I do have a lot of regrets and I think many of my peers outside law are in a geniunely better position. Here are a few differences:

(1) they are more interested in what they do, and have generally studied more interesting subjects at a graduate level/still can.

(2) they have far greater flexibility with their time and schedule on both a day to day leisure and practical planning level.

(3) they are wealthier, in terms of net worth and consumption potential, and can better exercise consumptive wealth when they need to compensate for some other failure or personal unhappiness.

(4) they have more personal freedom, in that they are not subject to a licensing agency (the bar association) for employment eligibility; I've had to become a more risk-averse, and thus less happy, person, since I cannot consume substances or commit breaches of ethical or legal standards without much greater threat to my direct livelihood.

(5) they have more career flexibility in just about every way.

Many of my close friends who are not in law school are happier in their chosen profession or line of work than I am or will be, even when I am equally or more successful within my field than they are within theirs. I would say most, but I don't know that as an empirical fact, although it's likely true. If I broaden the scope to include all former friends, even those I'm not close to any more, there are probably more unhappy/unsuccessful people, but I wouldn't really know--I didn't keep up with people who stayed in my hometown and coached high school lacrosse while pretending to be real estate agents.

[Nantucket84]

Thought I would chime in- Graduated in the depths of the recession from a regional law school and heard very similar sentiments echoed by the OP. I agree with some points, but overall you can absolutely make a non-legal career move, if you have the desire and dedication. I did not go to an ivy league school or have any family contacts or connections, but found a way to break into PE and now manage my own mid-market growth equity fund.

Long story short, I took a job with a small fledgling private equity fund out of law school for minimal pay eating shit at the absolute bottom of the totem pole. I learned the business, understood the importance of deal sourcing, structuring deals and finding good, off-market proprietary investments. Anyone with exposure to middle market PE will understand what I am talking about. I did good work for the partners and became close with the family office that originally capitalized the fund. Fast forward to today, I now manage my own fund capitalized by the same family office and the founders that I started working for out of law school.

There were no short cuts or magic too it, a little luck and a vision for where I wanted my law degree to take me. My one criticism of the OP is the same mentality I see with a lot of practicing attorneys (partners twice my age asking how to break into PE), and it's a cynical attitude that it simply can't be done. It can be, you just have to bite the bullet, eat shit and dedicate yourself....

[Tls2016]

I've been an M&A lawyer for 15 years. There are pluses:

- you get to work with executives in some of the most important moments of their careers
- you get to work with smart people
- you get to work on challenging problems (or at a minimum, be challenged by arduous tasks)
- the intensity of the work can give rise to strong relationships with clients and co-workers from having done battle together
- the practice is increasingly global
- there is less bureaucracy and time spent in meetings than I think in most corporate jobs
- there is less travel than consulting or banking, meaning that after the junior associate years it's possible to eat healthy and exercise
- given low overall economic growth, globalization and technological disruption, seems like there will be work to do for a while
- if you stick with it at the right firm, it's special to work alongside the same team of professional colleagues over the long-term

There are also many downsides, chief among them being the unpredictability of the work. It feels like working as an emergency first responder, prepared to drop everything at a moment's notice. That requires one's life to be re-configured around flexibility as the organizing principle. It's easy to look back and see different alternatives as superior, but the ideal alternative occupation changes over time -- perhaps investment banking fifteen years ago, PE ten years ago, tech startups last year, maybe computer programming/AI today. But as I look at my colleagues from college and law school today, I see a lot of difficulties encountered in other professions too. Overall I'm satisfied with my career.

OP is talking about the hours which you gloss over as "flexibility as the organizing principle" and the tedious nature of drafting documents for a decade which you don't directly address.
You don't address the near impossibility of making partner either.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

you sound like you have very preftigious friends. my friends are working dead end 40 hour per week 9 to 5 jobs making 35k with a ceiling of probably 45k (and thats after working like 7~8 years). living with 3-4 roommates. and those are just the employed ones.

[star fox]

you sound like you have very preftigious friends. my friends are working dead end 40 hour per week 9 to 5 jobs making 35k with a ceiling of probably 45k (and thats after working like 7~8 years). living with 3-4 roommates. and those are just the employed ones.

Same

[jbagelboy]

you sound like you have very preftigious friends. my friends are working dead end 40 hour per week 9 to 5 jobs making 35k with a ceiling of probably 45k (and thats after working like 7~8 years). living with 3-4 roommates. and those are just the employed ones.

If you're referring to me, its not prestige, its just happiness and making one good decision in life not to go to law school. I'm talking about a theater actor, a chef at a restaurant, a screenwriter, many journalists, a folk band pianist, a neuroscientist, an AI researcher, a historian, a union organizer, a programmer, a management consultant, a policymaker in the mayor's office of a major city, a teacher, a state geologist, a personal aid to a famous magazine owner, a quantum physicist, to name a few. They all did fine in college and could have taken the LSAT or MCAT and gone to some great school but took a leap of faith to try something else. They might have roomates, they might work 9-5, they might make less money without a promise of a lot more, but they don't have debt so compensation matters a lot less, and they are excited about what they do and hopeful for the future so they are happier.

I'm not saying I don't or won't enjoy what I do, or at least some of it, but it's not the same. My excitement isn't lasting and I have a very bleak outlook on the future.

[TheGoat18]

So yeah, OP is miserable and NYC BigLaw sucks. There must be gradations between firms though right? Are all big firms similarly soul crushing? What is the sweet spot between preftige/exit options and not wanting to kill yourself?

OP if you were a 1L at MVP with stellar grades a NYC big law ambitions what would you do? Assume hefty debt and a no other professional options.

[zot1]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

How do you convince yourself to go T14 --> BigLaw? By believing that happiness in the field exists.

Have you ever worked in biglaw? What is your exposure to the field.

I didn't have the pleasure, peanuts. I am however fortunate enough to know over 30 BigLaw junior associates and handful of more senior associates in the California market (mostly SoCal but a handful of Bay Area as well). The people I know in BigLaw, specially in the more "laid back" market in California, are not very happy. We either talk about their experiences or I get to read lengthy rants on Facebook. The people who I know are sticking it out are doing so because of money. Because they took out debt to get there and now they feel BigLaw is the only way to repay it.

At least two of those BigLaw associates have told me they've considered suicide. I'm only really really close to one of them, so the second revelation came as a surprise.

Their stories are eerily similar to what I've read on TLS although there are more NY BigLaw people in here or so it seems like it.

My problem with the thinking of "oh that whiny person couldn't handle BigLaw but I can" is that it sets certain people, but definitely not all, in a path of unhappiness. If you're gonna call me out because I'm not actually in BigLaw, I'll take it if that means that maybe someone questioning this path will be more careful because I'm pointing out the problems with it.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

you sound like you have very preftigious friends. my friends are working dead end 40 hour per week 9 to 5 jobs making 35k with a ceiling of probably 45k (and thats after working like 7~8 years). living with 3-4 roommates. and those are just the employed ones.

If you're referring to me, its not prestige, its just happiness and making one good decision in life not to go to law school. I'm talking about a theater actor, a chef at a restaurant, a screenwriter, many journalists, a folk band pianist, a neuroscientist, an AI researcher, a historian, a union organizer, a programmer, a management consultant, a policymaker in the mayor's office of a major city, a teacher, a state geologist, a personal aid to a famous magazine owner, a quantum physicist, to name a few. They all did fine in college and could have taken the LSAT or MCAT and gone to some great school but took a leap of faith to try something else. They might have roomates, they might work 9-5, they might make less money without a promise of a lot more, but they don't have debt so compensation matters a lot less, and they are excited about what they do and hopeful for the future so they are happier.

I'm not saying I don't or won't enjoy what I do, or at least some of it, but it's not the same. My excitement isn't lasting and I have a very bleak outlook on the future.

well if not preftige, then your friends at least sound like very motivated and driven people. my friends are not like that at all lol. probably says something about my prole background, but im literally like the most successful/driven dude amongst my close group of friends, and im just in fucking law school. fuck. thats sad. FML

[jbagelboy]

you sound like you have very preftigious friends. my friends are working dead end 40 hour per week 9 to 5 jobs making 35k with a ceiling of probably 45k (and thats after working like 7~8 years). living with 3-4 roommates. and those are just the employed ones.

If you're referring to me, its not prestige, its just happiness and making one good decision in life not to go to law school. I'm talking about a theater actor, a chef at a restaurant, a screenwriter, many journalists, a folk band pianist, a neuroscientist, an AI researcher, a historian, a union organizer, a programmer, a management consultant, a policymaker in the mayor's office of a major city, a teacher, a state geologist, a personal aid to a famous magazine owner, a quantum physicist, to name a few. They all did fine in college and could have taken the LSAT or MCAT and gone to some great school but took a leap of faith to try something else. They might have roomates, they might work 9-5, they might make less money without a promise of a lot more, but they don't have debt so compensation matters a lot less, and they are excited about what they do and hopeful for the future so they are happier.

I'm not saying I don't or won't enjoy what I do, or at least some of it, but it's not the same. My excitement isn't lasting and I have a very bleak outlook on the future.

well if not preftige, then your friends at least sound like very motivated and driven people. my friends are not like that at all lol. probably says something about my prole background, but im literally like the most successful/driven dude amongst my close group of friends, and im just in fucking law school. fuck. thats sad. FML

I think law school requires drive, sacrifice, and some raw intellect, but not creativity or genius or true dedication. Idk. I'm sure you're very driven and smart and I'm not trying to make you feel bad or pity myself for that matter.

Obviously as I said I'm sure there are ppl I knew in high school selling phones at verizon and coaching high school sports but I guess I'm just not in touch with them that much. That sounds super snooty its more just that I don't get home a lot since my folks moved so I mostly see people from college.

I know a lot of people that are in medical school/residency or finance and I wouldn't say those people are much happier or more fulfilled than law students, so I didn't include them.

[PeanutsNJam]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

How do you convince yourself to go T14 --> BigLaw? By believing that happiness in the field exists.

Have you ever worked in biglaw? What is your exposure to the field.

I didn't have the pleasure, peanuts. I am however fortunate enough to know over 30 BigLaw junior associates and handful of more senior associates in the California market (mostly SoCal but a handful of Bay Area as well). The people I know in BigLaw, specially in the more "laid back" market in California, are not very happy. We either talk about their experiences or I get to read lengthy rants on Facebook. The people who I know are sticking it out are doing so because of money. Because they took out debt to get there and now they feel BigLaw is the only way to repay it.

At least two of those BigLaw associates have told me they've considered suicide. I'm only really really close to one of them, so the second revelation came as a surprise.

Their stories are eerily similar to what I've read on TLS although there are more NY BigLaw people in here or so it seems like it.

My problem with the thinking of "oh that whiny person couldn't handle BigLaw but I can" is that it sets certain people, but definitely not all, in a path of unhappiness. If you're gonna call me out because I'm not actually in BigLaw, I'll take it if that means that maybe someone questioning this path will be more careful because I'm pointing out the problems with it.

I was questioning the credibility of your posts. I know of attorneys who tell me that while their work sucks at times, they're generally happy with their life. I'm not going to consider that dispositive information either. I just see in this thread people who find every reason to discredit the posters who are in biglaw and say their job isn't that bad (or isn't the hellhole that OP depicts it as). I'm just skeptical as to the per se horrible nature of biglaw.

For example, in my case, my ugpa was a 2.45. I had 0 options coming out of undergrad. Now I'm going to graduate from law school debt free and have a SA this summer at a market paying firm in a secondary market. I have no desire to use "substances" or commit breaches of ethical or legal standards (so far as I know).

While it may be true that I might not love my work the way a chef does (actually, I'd bet my favorite pair of pants there are cooks who are suicidal and hate cooking but have to keep cooking because they're stuck there), I do have a hopeful outlook on my life and I think I can be happy doing what I do. I don't need to compare myself to others; happiness is not zero sum. I am also skeptical as to the "career flexibility" angle. It's not like an actor can just decide to become a neuroscientist, or vice versa (if they could, it wouldn't be any easier than if a lawyer wanted to make that switch). Doctors specialize too, and I don't think an MD would help you get into private equity, but I just don't see the same complaints about the medical field. Hell, a cardiac surgeon couldn't become a neurologist if he wanted to. Like a historian couldn't become a programmer with any less effort than a lawyer who wants to become a programmer.

I believe OP and others are miserable in their job for sure. I just am not convinced that their experience is universal, or even the expected outcome, nor do I believe the alternatives are that much better.

[jbagelboy]

Yea, I'm not miserable, I'm actually pretty happy, I was just responding to 2014's query about non-law peers. I love it that these people have diverse interests and trajectories and I can learn so much about so many things. I also love my law school friends who are all brilliant and dedicated and I'm not digging them at all; they will be extraordinary litigators, prosecutors, academics, advocates, and yes, deal-makers.

The point is, it's a mere fiction that law is justified as "not worse than the other shitty options" and that there's nothing out there but lawyers doctors and bankers. Every year I learn how less and less true that is.

[zot1]

I was questioning the credibility of your posts. I know of attorneys who tell me that while their work sucks at times, they're generally happy with their life. I'm not going to consider that dispositive information either. I just see in this thread people who find every reason to discredit the posters who are in biglaw and say their job isn't that bad (or isn't the hellhole that OP depicts it as). I'm just skeptical as to the per se horrible nature of biglaw.

For example, in my case, my ugpa was a 2.45. I had 0 options coming out of undergrad. Now I'm going to graduate from law school debt free and have a SA this summer at a market paying firm in a secondary market. I have no desire to use "substances" or commit breaches of ethical or legal standards (so far as I know).

While it may be true that I might not love my work the way a chef does (cooking is pretty awesome), I do have a hopeful outlook on my life and I think I can be happy doing what I do. I don't need to compare myself to others; happiness is not zero sum. I am also skeptical as to the "career flexibility" angle. It's not like an actor can just decide to become a neuroscientist, or vice versa (if they could, it wouldn't be any easier than if a lawyer wanted to make that switch). Doctors specialize too, and I don't think an MD won't help you get into private equity, but I just don't see the same complaints about the medical field.

I believe OP and others are miserable in their job for sure. I just am not convinced that their experience is universal, or even the expected outcome.

I completely understand where you're coming from. But that's the thing, most people now in BigLaw, just like you, thought it wouldn't be that bad. That maybe they would find joy in the work, in the money, in the prestige. But it doesn't seem to be that way. I think about this in a statistical way. The fact that the people I know in BigLaw seem universally miserable. Yes, I'm an imperfect sample, but you'd think there should be people in my pool who are happy in BigLaw.

I'm not saying this won't be you. Heck, I hope this is you. I hope you'll come back and tell us that you've never been happier once you become a junior associate.

I worry though for the people that could have done other things yet choose to do this for all the wrong reasons. Or who get into a lot of debt to do it and then get stuck.

[jbagelboy]

I was questioning the credibility of your posts. I know of attorneys who tell me that while their work sucks at times, they're generally happy with their life. I'm not going to consider that dispositive information either. I just see in this thread people who find every reason to discredit the posters who are in biglaw and say their job isn't that bad (or isn't the hellhole that OP depicts it as). I'm just skeptical as to the per se horrible nature of biglaw.

For example, in my case, my ugpa was a 2.45. I had 0 options coming out of undergrad. Now I'm going to graduate from law school debt free and have a SA this summer at a market paying firm in a secondary market. I have no desire to use "substances" or commit breaches of ethical or legal standards (so far as I know).

While it may be true that I might not love my work the way a chef does (cooking is pretty awesome), I do have a hopeful outlook on my life and I think I can be happy doing what I do. I don't need to compare myself to others; happiness is not zero sum. I am also skeptical as to the "career flexibility" angle. It's not like an actor can just decide to become a neuroscientist, or vice versa (if they could, it wouldn't be any easier than if a lawyer wanted to make that switch). Doctors specialize too, and I don't think an MD won't help you get into private equity, but I just don't see the same complaints about the medical field.

I believe OP and others are miserable in their job for sure. I just am not convinced that their experience is universal, or even the expected outcome.

I completely understand where you're coming from. But that's the thing, most people now in BigLaw, just like you, thought it wouldn't be that bad. That maybe they would find joy in the work, in the money, in the prestige. But it doesn't seem to be that way. I think about this in a statistical way. The fact that the people I know in BigLaw seem universally miserable. Yes, I'm an imperfect sample, but you'd think there should be people in my pool who are happy in BigLaw.

I'm not saying this won't be you. Heck, I hope this is you. I hope you'll come back and tell us that you've never been happier once you become a junior associate.

I worry though for the people that could have done other things yet choose to do this for all the wrong reasons. Or who get into a lot of debt to do it and then get stuck.

Exactly.

[PeanutsNJam]

To be clear, I'm not saying that biglaw is going to be just working hard every now and then and rolling in the dough. Personally, it's the best possible option I have available to me. If I could start my life over from high school, I'd have gone for a double major in EE and Comp Sci, and worked my ass off in undergrad. I'd want to work on design teams for advanced machinery, or maybe pursue a PhD in a specialized area of physics. But being the dumbass slacker that I was, there's no point to it.

All that said, I agree it's possible biglaw will be hell for me, but even if it is, at least for me, there was no better alternative at the time.

[2014]

I'm personally in the not competitive for any sort of lucrative business side job boat coming out of UG and basically all of my non law friends are teachers so I really lack exposure to peers who are happier in other sectors that I would/should have considered. That's probably relevant though because there's less dissonance floating around about the road not taken. I also am too junior to make any sort of meaningful satisfaction comparison amongst my peers at a firm.

The main point of the original question to OP or other miserable senior Corp associates in NY was that if you broadly define senior as 6-8 year and include the large groups (M&A, banking, capital markets) then those people work with probably 50 others who are in similar positions. What about the people in the top [x]% of those 50 makes them actually satisfied where OP and others are not?

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

law is so depressing.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The point is, it's a mere fiction that law is justified as "not worse than the other shitty options" and that there's nothing out there but lawyers doctors and bankers. Every year I learn how less and less true that is.

I completely agree with this. I think traditional education is terrible at exposing people to the options out there.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

can OP give us a detailed account of his day just so we can vicariously experience how shitty it is

[Tls2016]

I'm personally in the not competitive for any sort of lucrative business side job boat coming out of UG and basically all of my non law friends are teachers so I really lack exposure to peers who are happier in other sectors that I would/should have considered. That's probably relevant though because there's less dissonance floating around about the road not taken. I also am too junior to make any sort of meaningful satisfaction comparison amongst my peers at a firm.

The main point of the original question to OP or other miserable senior Corp associates in NY was that if you broadly define senior as 6-8 year and include the large groups (M&A, banking, capital markets) then those people work with probably 50 others who are in similar positions. What about the people in the top [x]% of those 50 makes them actually satisfied where OP and others are not?

I liked biglaw but I was a serious workaholic. I prefer working with really smart but not so nice people to working with less smart but nice people. I also lived where I grew up and had friends and family so I didn't have to create a new support system. People who get their identity from their work, who are smart and ambitious, who can work quickly and accurately and who don't need much sleep will be ok. (But only a tiny percentage of those people will make partner.)

Most important, I had no debt. Borrowing so much money to work in biglaw has never made sense to me.

[jbagelboy]

Most important, I had no debt. Borrowing so much money to work in biglaw has never made sense to me.

Ya it seems like a total shit racket.

I can't fucking BELIEVED I debt-pwned myself

[ticklemesilly]

If you're in it for a stable 120K job, do litigation, pay off your loans and work for a big company in-house or for government. If you like business and/or want to chase money, it gets harder, and you end up where I am. Do it for a few years, get broad experience and get out early. I think you're right in your classification of the pros and cons, but the downside to corporate exit options is that you're still reading long, boring contracts all day.

Isn't it hard to go in-house if you do litigation?