WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[Kabuo]

So any bets on how many spots we will drop in the rankings this year, as per the Dean's statement?

?

Because of the new ABA reporting standards, we may drop slightly in the rankings. I would imagine it would be a slight drop and nothing to worry about. Our dean shared with us that hiring is up for the school, but because of the new reporting guidelines, we may go down a bit. We're still a great school and any drop wouldn't change that.

Supremely unconcerned. Our LSAT still went up, and last time I paid attention to how USNews worked, that was weighted heaviest. Plus, even if we do drop, it will only be a couple spots, should not have much effect on this incoming class, and will generate nothing but great press.

There is going to be a ton of pressure on peer schools to follow suit in how to report next year, and in the meantime ATL, campos, most of TLS, and the NYT will generate only positive reviews. The NYT has a guy who pretty much does nothing but report on LS stuff now. He would love to portray a school "doing the right thing" as a martyr.

[TatteredDignity]

But if we drop out of the all-important T20, how can we get the jerbs?

[bouakedojo]

Plus, even if we do drop, it will only be a couple spots

Ya, that's what I'm thinking.

But if we drop out of the all-important T20, how can we get the jerbs?

lol.

[JCougar]

I'd rather be part of an honest and forthright institution than gain a couple of ranking points by bending the truth.

I realize that the US News is like a non-cooperative game of prisoner's dilemma, where the party that operates in the most self-interested and dishonest fashion wins, and the party that tries to be cooperative and honest loses. But I think we're at the point where a reputation for being honest, fair and direct with our students will outweigh a few rankings points.

[bouakedojo]

I'd rather be part of an honest and forthright institution than gain a couple of ranking points by bending the truth.

I realize that the US News is like a non-cooperative game of prisoner's dilemma, where the party that operates in the most self-interested and dishonest fashion wins, and the party that tries to be cooperative and honest loses. But I think we're at the point where a reputation for being honest, fair and direct with our students will outweigh a few rankings points.

I couldn't agree more.

[stolli]

I missed the talk today. Can somebody fill me in? Wont the new ABA reporting standards effect all schools or is WUSTL taking the initiative and volunteering for this? Realistically, will dropping out of the top 20 effect employment prospects? I know that it shouldnt but there is a psychological factor that might make a difference

also, what else did the dean say? anything important?

[seatown12]

I missed the talk today. Can somebody fill me in? Wont the new ABA reporting standards effect all schools or is WUSTL taking the initiative and volunteering for this? Realistically, will dropping out of the top 20 effect employment prospects? I know that it shouldnt but there is a psychological factor that might make a difference

also, what else did the dean say? anything important?

every student in the 3L class gets a CSO advisor and a faculty advisor to help with employment

they are trying to get the faculty to approve a program so that individual students can arrange externships for semester credit in cities other than StL, NY, or DC (where Wash U has formal externship programs)

2L public interest stipend will be reevaluated and potentially changed in the future to include more students

But if we drop out of the all-important T20, how can we get the jerbs?

lol.

not sure why Syverud seemed to care/think any one else cared so much about this

[romothesavior]

not sure why Syverud seemed to care/think any one else cared so much about this

I do think (some) prospective students will care. There are always threads on TLS where people say, "I was thinking about going to XYZ Law, but they are on a downward trajectory in USNWR." It's an insanely stupid argument, but people certainly will think about it. I also do think some of the less TLS/law school savvy students here will potentially take issue with it. Overall though I think it will have very little impact on the school if we do drop. Dean S seems to think we will, but if our other data is the same or better, this might not hurt us much, if at all.

I will say, whoever asked that question about placement in Chicago/St. Louis/the Midwest is a very sharp guy. And devilishly handsome.

[TatteredDignity]

I will say, whoever asked that question about placement in Chicago/St. Louis/the Midwest is a very sharp guy. And devilishly handsome.

Crap, bummed that I missed that. What did you ask and how did he answer? Was it something along the lines of "why don't you boost our placement in the Midwest instead of focusing so much on the coasts?"

[Michael Bluth]

Crap, bummed that I missed that. What did you ask and how did he answer? Was it something along the lines of "why don't you boost our placement in the Midwest instead of focusing so much on the coasts?"

I doubt the answer will substantially affect you. Midwest biglaw is more of your dominion.

[TatteredDignity]

Crap, bummed that I missed that. What did you ask and how did he answer? Was it something along the lines of "why don't you boost our placement in the Midwest instead of focusing so much on the coasts?"

I doubt the answer will substantially affect you. Midwest biglaw is more of your dominion.

#1- wtf, are you being a creepy stalker or something? I don't who your real-life persona is.

#2- I care less about the answer than that I missed romo ask a pointed question to the dean.

[romothesavior]

I will say, whoever asked that question about placement in Chicago/St. Louis/the Midwest is a very sharp guy. And devilishly handsome.

Crap, bummed that I missed that. What did you ask and how did he answer? Was it something along the lines of "why don't you boost our placement in the Midwest instead of focusing so much on the coasts?"

I didn't ask anything. It was some very scholarly, dapper-looking young man in a green polo shirt and a buzzcut to hide his receding hairline.

But yes, the question was along those lines. Said it was great that we're doing well in distant markets and branding ourselves nationally, but we lack a stranglehold in St. Louis and Chicago is basically a bloodbath. Kati Scannell got up and gave sort of a boilerplate answer about networking and such, and how they have been trying to convince employers around STL to take more of our students. Dean Bolin talked about the outreach they have been doing in Chicago and the outreach they've been trying to do with government employers up there in particular, which was sort of encouraging. There is also an upcoming alumni event in Chicago, so she encouraged people to try to get up there for it.

IMO, they need to devote more resources to the Midwest, particularly the four nearby cities (KC, St. Louis, Chicago, and Indy). If you weren't top 10-15%, you had virtually no shot in Chicago at OCI. Cool, we get Sidley, K&E, Skadden, Jones Day, etc. to come to OCI, but they are only seriously looking at top 5-10% people. What about the rest of us? I know a guy with solid (20-30%) grades and LR who was targeting Chicago and was from there originally, and the CSO gave him contacts at like Skadden, K&E, and Jones Day. The Skadden guy straight up told him there was no way he could work there with his grades. He needs to be guided to firms where he has a legit shot, not to firms that are only taking maybe 1-2 WUSTL students who are in the top 5%. Telling him to talk to a Skadden bigshot is not helpful.

I also think some sort of semester externship program up there would do wonders for networking and establishing our brand in the city. The NYC and D.C. programs both sound awesome, but I'll bet Chicago would be the most popular if we could pull it off. We have a lot of students who came here to get into Chicago, but now they are essentially shut out of the market.

A lot of our placement issues stem from the fact that the Midwest is 1) a smaller market and 2) really hurting right now. That's not something that the CSO or administration can really do anything about. Overall, I think we have a competent CSO and our administration is excellent. But I do worry that we aren't getting ourselves established in the right markets, and we need to become a Midwestern powerhouse before we are a national school.

[Michael Bluth]

Crap, bummed that I missed that. What did you ask and how did he answer? Was it something along the lines of "why don't you boost our placement in the Midwest instead of focusing so much on the coasts?"

I doubt the answer will substantially affect you. Midwest biglaw is more of your dominion.

#1- wtf, are you being a creepy stalker or something? I don't who your real-life persona is.

#2- I care less about the answer than that I missed romo ask a pointed question to the dean.

Whoosh. And the two inside jokes go clear over his head.

[TatteredDignity]

Crap, bummed that I missed that. What did you ask and how did he answer? Was it something along the lines of "why don't you boost our placement in the Midwest instead of focusing so much on the coasts?"

I doubt the answer will substantially affect you. Midwest biglaw is more of your dominion.

#1- wtf, are you being a creepy stalker or something? I don't who your real-life persona is.

#2- I care less about the answer than that I missed romo ask a pointed question to the dean.

Whoosh. And the two inside jokes go clear over his head.

Now I feel so ashamed. That was subtly done, in my defense.

I knew you'd out yourself to me eventually. And I should have known there aren't that many other arrested fans at school. Also, you told me you watch that British show in your tar.

[TatteredDignity]

A lot of our placement issues stem from the fact that the Midwest is 1) a smaller market and 2) really hurting right now. That's not something that the CSO or administration can really do anything about. Overall, I think we have a competent CSO and our administration is excellent. But I do worry that we aren't getting ourselves established in the right markets, and we need to become a Midwestern powerhouse before we are a national school.

Yeah, this.

[mountaintime]

we need to become a Midwestern powerhouse before we are a national school.

Totally agree. WUSTL needs to assert itself as the dominant school in the midwest (not including the Chicago schools, of course). This seems like a much more attainable short term goal than getting big placement on the coasts.

[bouakedojo]

Now I feel so ashamed. That was subtly done, in my defense.

I knew you'd out yourself to me eventually. And I should have known there aren't that many other arrested fans at school. Also, you told me you watch that British show in your tar.

I'm an arrested fan, although I don't know either of you.

I think we should have a TLS bar review night or something. We have a lot of posters at the school.

[TatteredDignity]

Now I feel so ashamed. That was subtly done, in my defense.

I knew you'd out yourself to me eventually. And I should have known there aren't that many other arrested fans at school. Also, you told me you watch that British show in your tar.

I'm an arrested fan, although I don't know either of you.

I think we should have a TLS bar review night or something. We have a lot of posters at the school.

I'm in.

[notedgarfigaro]

we need to become a Midwestern powerhouse before we are a national school.

Totally agree. WUSTL needs to assert itself as the dominant school in the midwest (not including the Chicago schools, of course). This seems like a much more attainable short term goal than getting big placement on the coasts.

But what can they really do to shore up WUSTL's position in the Midwest? When a majority of each class is effectively shut out from the St. Louis market before they even start classes, there's not a whole lot CSO can do.

[StlCards50]

So how does everyone commute? If I matriculate I might find a cheap place in south city and take the metro to campus.

and how many of you guys that have already been admitted are St Louis natives?

[thexfactor]

we need to become a Midwestern powerhouse before we are a national school.

Totally agree. WUSTL needs to assert itself as the dominant school in the midwest (not including the Chicago schools, of course). This seems like a much more attainable short term goal than getting big placement on the coasts.

But what can they really do to shore up WUSTL's position in the Midwest? When a majority of each class is effectively shut out from the St. Louis market before they even start classes, there's not a whole lot CSO can do.

If Vandy can do it in Nashville and Michigan can do it in Detroit, I think WUSTL can be the dominate player in STL. RIght now, that is simply not the case. I think last year, Bryan Cave hired 6 from SLu and 5 from WUSTL. Vandy would never get outplaced in Nashville by another regional school and Michigan would never get outplaced in Detroit.

Maybe WUSTL needs to actively recruit more kids from Mo. Maybe try to make 1/2 the class from the STL area?

[punkyg0608]

This may be more for JCougar than the rest of you, but what's up with this talk of foreign language classes? Is it possible/practical to audit undergrad language classes while in law school? And I'm guessing this would cost quite a bit of money, right? I'm just asking because I've studied quite a bit of French and Spanish and would love to keep improving while in law school!

[romothesavior]

So how does everyone commute? If I matriculate I might find a cheap place in south city and take the metro to campus.

and how many of you guys that have already been admitted are St Louis natives?

I took the bus my first year because I was near a stop. We get free Metro passes as students. This year I bought a pass and will probably drive next year too. So convenient.

[stratocophic]

we need to become a Midwestern powerhouse before we are a national school.

Totally agree. WUSTL needs to assert itself as the dominant school in the midwest (not including the Chicago schools, of course). This seems like a much more attainable short term goal than getting big placement on the coasts.

But what can they really do to shore up WUSTL's position in the Midwest? When a majority of each class is effectively shut out from the St. Louis market before they even start classes, there's not a whole lot CSO can do.

If Vandy can do it in Nashville and Michigan can do it in Detroit, I think WUSTL can be the dominate player in STL. RIght now, that is simply not the case. I think last year, Bryan Cave hired 6 from SLu and 5 from WUSTL. Vandy would never get outplaced in Nashville by another regional school and Michigan would never get outplaced in Detroit.

Maybe WUSTL needs to actively recruit more kids from Mo. Maybe try to make 1/2 the class from the STL area?

My thoughts on all of this -

It's a different situation from the examples you listed IMO. Closest non-Vandy law school to Nashville is UTK (like 3 hours away, which doesn't seem like much until you remember that Vandy's been developing a rep in the city with no local competition since its law school opened), and Michigan's basically the only decent law school (quiet, MSU) in its state in the first place.

SLU's right in town, has a rep in STL that equates to that of a decent regional school, and has a head start because pretty much the entire class stays in the area so it turns into a nepotism-type deal. Don't people say that ~75% of practicing attorneys in STL are SLU grads? We aren't going to squeeze SLU out completely, they're too big and entrenched. The NLJ numbers for STL are so tiny that even halving their numbers at the likes of BC/TC/HBS probably only gives us 10-15 more spots - that's less than 5% of the class.

Unfortunately, taking 50% of grads from MO weakens entering stats, drops us in the rankings, and takes the legs out of what appears to be our long term goal - building a rep equal to that of the Vandy/UT/USC tier and getting placement numbers to match. While ordinarily the rankings don't matter, I think they can if you stick around and get your brand out there long enough. WUSTL's in the middle of that process now, from what I can see, and I think the results are beginning to follow that. We got hammered in the NLJ this past year as expected, but we were still ahead of the non-major market T25s (Emory etc.) except for ND by a slim margin, even though we have a pretty large class and then put transfers on top of it. Shame we can't shrink the class size more, it's a disadvantage b/c a lot of firms aren't going to give WUSTL people spots that go to other schools so we can only expand so much. We aren't there yet, but I doubt we'd be competing with ND and other solid T25s in terms of placement %s if we were still #45 or whatever we were 15-20 years ago given WUSTL's geographic disadvantage.

[JCougar]

The reason WUSTL can't place people into St. Louis firms is that people who really want NYC or Chicago go here, strike out, take the St. Louis job as backup, and then bail for NYC/Chicago after three years when they have a good enough resume to lateral. STL firms get sick of this, because it costs them a lot of money to have to train you only to have you bail before you get really productive. They'd rather just take the SLU grad who couldn't lateral even if he/she wanted to.

When, as a graduate, you do that kind of stuff, you leave a reputation behind that ruins it for everyone else who would legitimately like to work here.

I'm not saying people don't have a right to lateral. Just trying to state the facts. Employers aren't going to hire from here unless you have major St. Louis ties.