William Mitchell Graduate, taking questions. Forum

[Slimpee]

Looks like I'm staying in Minneapolis. I'm not looking forward the commute, but the roommates were not interested at all in moving to St.Paul. Hopefully it will be a healthy thing to have a little distance between school and my personal life.

So Minneapolis is cooler anyway...

[waitingsux]

As we saw above, it's not the norm at all. These T6 grads with bristling resumes aren't exactly overrunning all the top 100 schools. So If I went to a school whose faculty was completely stuffed with these kinds of people, I'd feel pretty fortunate.

Yes, they are. Ask one of your professors, or anyone who attends a real law school. T6 professors are the norm.

It is important to note that most HYS grads would generally be critical of their law school in some regard. Heck, most students at my law school would be critical in some regard. You guys are defending William Mitchell like you are the Dean of Admissions. I either:

a) Question your intelligence.

b) Question your motives.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this for you. I just displayed the full-time faculty stats for Maine and Gonzaga, two top 100 law schools, neither of which have a majority of professors who graduated from T6 schools. Maine has seven of twenty-five and Gonzaga has four of thirty-nine. Hell, look further up the rankings and it's still not "the norm." Iowa, #26 in USNWR, has eighteen full-time faculty members that graduated from T6 schools and thirty-one that didn't. (Then again, can we objectively define "the norm?" Is it 90%? 75%? 66%? 50%?) Now I don't make any judgments on the quality of schooling at these institutions based upon those numbers. I simply want to underscore the fact that your claim is at best a gross generalization and at worst inaccurate, unless you don't think these three count as "real law schools."

I defend William Mitchell to those who, like yourself, analogize its graduates to garbage men and construction workers. My intelligence is adequate, thank you very much, and my motives are genuine. I simply offer information to those who request it.

So if you have a tier two legal education, Joe, why don't you show it by engaging in a nuanced discussion rather than calling me a liar and storming off in a huff when others challenge your assertions.

You would have been better off going to Vegas and playing craps than attending WM.

Joe's back! I thought you gave up attacking Mitchell's reputation.

[waitingsux]

Looks like I'm staying in Minneapolis. I'm not looking forward the commute, but the roommates were not interested at all in moving to St.Paul. Hopefully it will be a healthy thing to have a little distance between school and my personal life.

So Minneapolis is cooler anyway...

My thoughts exactly!

[waitingsux]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Personally, I wouldn't go without the guarantee of a sizable scholarship.

By the way, what did you study at UMD? I graduated from UMD myself fall semester 07/08.

[ohnowtf]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Retake and apply again. A few more points and you should get a nice scholarship offer at WM. I don't think its in your best interest to accept now at full price.

[tvink]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Personally, I wouldn't go without the guarantee of a sizable scholarship.

By the way, what did you study at UMD? I graduated from UMD myself fall semester 07/08.

Political Science and Criminology. We probably have met, haha. I just don't want to wait another year and have to worry about paying back student loans that I have already accrued in between, but it may be the best path.

[tvink]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Retake and apply again. A few more points and you should get a nice scholarship offer at WM. I don't think its in your best interest to accept now at full price.

Yeah, it is tough waiting.

[waitingsux]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Personally, I wouldn't go without the guarantee of a sizable scholarship.

By the way, what did you study at UMD? I graduated from UMD myself fall semester 07/08.

Political Science and Criminology. We probably have met, haha. I just don't want to wait another year and have to worry about paying back student loans that I have already accrued in between, but it may be the best path.

I was a Political Science/ International Studies major. Who was your favorite poli sci professor? (tie between Powers and Sharp for me)

I took a year off and it really paid. I have good undergraduate grades (3.87) but a not so hot lsat score (155). But in my year off i really put a lot of time and thought into my application and personal statement. I used the year to talk to lawyers in the area of law I'm interested in and I volunteered one morning at a non profit legal organizations. This helped me put together a solid application that showed the admission staff that I took the decision seriously. To my suprise they awarded me a 85% scholarship.

No need to rush things just because of student loans. I really enjoyed being out of school for a year. I'm ready to hit it hard this fall and am not feeling burnt out on school like i would have last fall. Best of luck to you.

[tvink]

Thanks for the kind words. I will take your advice seriously. I actually never had Sharp as a professor, but I was a fan of Percival. I took quite a few classes with him and really enjoyed them.

[waitingsux]

Thanks for the kind words. I will take your advice seriously. I actually never had Sharp as a professor, but I was a fan of Percival. I took quite a few classes with him and really enjoyed them.

I never had him, but i heard good things. I had his wife for a bunch of classes and she wasn't bad.

[tamlyric]

If the OP is still out there taking questions, ...

I was wondering how WM and WM students are dealing with the terrible economy. Any insight would be much appreciated.

[MSP1]

Quite honestly, it's a mixed bag.

None of my friends in BigLaw have been stealthed yet. None of my friends doing government work have been let go. On the other hand, I do know one person who was recently cut from her firm (small boutique) and I'm aware of a few out there stuck doing doc review.

The people who are really screwed are the classes of 2009 and 2010. With four law schools in the Metro area, and Minnesota only being a medium-sized state anyway, competition is pretty fierce for what jobs there are. It's unclear to me whether one school's grads are MORE screwed than the others. I've heard of unemployed grads from all four schools desperately seeking work.

As far as the actual institution's response to the legal apocalypse, I have to say that it's a bit puzzling. Mitchell is advertising the opportunity for alumni to audit regular classes, free of charge. That seems to be the very least that the school could do, but the tenor of the advertisements indicate that they think it's a viable solution. "Take Bankruptcy since you skipped it in law school! You might be able to fool a bankruptcy attorney into taking you on." My guess is that with very limited control over the direction of the legal market (and without billions at its disposal), Mitchell is trying to put some sort of positive spin on a shitty situation.

Networking is key. It's always networking. I know several people who've struck out with career services and instead found jobs through a prof's personal connections. But still, it's ugly out there.

[tamlyric]

Thanks so much for your perspective!

I have some more questions if you don't mind.

First, any tips on networking effectively in the legal world, specifically in the Twin Cities, or more specifically coming from Mitchell. I assume some of this may become obvious if/when one gets into a position to do any such networking, but I think that I (and others) could gain from any practical wisdom you might have about things to do (or not do) in terms of networking.

Second, do you have any thoughts on how the bad economy will impact students starting law this fall or next? I will be applying this cycle for next fall, so I am curious about the extent to which there will be a glut of desperate lawyers on the market from previous years and how this will impact those of us coming out in (say) 2013.

Cheers!

[interestedbyestander]

Never heard of this school. Who could care less here about this TTT.

[WallyGator12000]

Just keep moving through you moron, no need to post your meaningless perspective...

[interestedbyestander]

Just keep moving through you moron, no need to post your meaningless perspective...

It's only when comments hit close to home that they receive such a response. But I guess even crappy schools get fans too.

[MSP1]

Thanks so much for your perspective!

I have some more questions if you don't mind.

First, any tips on networking effectively in the legal world, specifically in the Twin Cities, or more specifically coming from Mitchell. I assume some of this may become obvious if/when one gets into a position to do any such networking, but I think that I (and others) could gain from any practical wisdom you might have about things to do (or not do) in terms of networking.

Second, do you have any thoughts on how the bad economy will impact students starting law this fall or next? I will be applying this cycle for next fall, so I am curious about the extent to which there will be a glut of desperate lawyers on the market from previous years and how this will impact those of us coming out in (say) 2013.

Cheers!

Mitchell has a fair number of influential/highly-placed graduates in the Twin Cities' public and private sectors. Contacting an alumnus/a and expressing interest in discussing their practice area will often be enough to merit a half-hour meeting and a cup of coffee. It's no guarantee of anything, however. If you're looking for something more, I'd recommend identifying profs who teach in your favored area of the law and asking after those alumni who they know and have relationships with. Those alumni will most often be the people willing to invest in you. I can't emphasize enough the value of the professorial connection and point of reference.

Other general networking rules always apply. Be friendly and engaging. If your new acquaintance wants to talk about something other than the law, follow his or her lead. Do your homework about their company beforehand.

My thoughts on the economy reflect what I read in the papers. Since I'm not an economist, I tend to put credence in what the economists say is happening. (On the other hand, their accuracy can sometimes be compared to that of meteorologists, so it's not foolproof.)

The economy may turn around by 2013 or so, but whether or not the legal employment landscape will ever be like it was remains a point of debate. I think things have really changed. I think the days of easy summer associate gigs are over. I think the days of big money for associates may be on their way out. I think schools in the third and fourth tiers of US News need to take a good hard look at themselves and ask whether it's right to charge $120K for a legal education when statistics predict that their worst graduate might not ever see that kind of money. If they don't think it's right, they need to find ways to build a niche for themselves in their area and vault over competitors, giving all their graduates the best possible chance of success. I hope Mitchell does that and continues to do that.

I'm not trying to scare with this little speech. I just want students to have their eyes open on the way in. If you want to be a lawyer, do it. You just need to know that the landscape has changed radically, and perhaps permanently. Time will tell. In the meantime, challenge Mitchell professors and administrators to always innovate and improve. Complacency is the enemy.

[Joe Biden]

Yes, they are. Ask one of your professors, or anyone who attends a real law school. T6 professors are the norm.

It is important to note that most HYS grads would generally be critical of their law school in some regard. Heck, most students at my law school would be critical in some regard. You guys are defending William Mitchell like you are the Dean of Admissions. I either:

a) Question your intelligence.

b) Question your motives.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this for you. I just displayed the full-time faculty stats for Maine and Gonzaga, two top 100 law schools, neither of which have a majority of professors who graduated from T6 schools. Maine has seven of twenty-five and Gonzaga has four of thirty-nine. Hell, look further up the rankings and it's still not "the norm." Iowa, #26 in USNWR, has eighteen full-time faculty members that graduated from T6 schools and thirty-one that didn't. (Then again, can we objectively define "the norm?" Is it 90%? 75%? 66%? 50%?) Now I don't make any judgments on the quality of schooling at these institutions based upon those numbers. I simply want to underscore the fact that your claim is at best a gross generalization and at worst inaccurate, unless you don't think these three count as "real law schools."

I defend William Mitchell to those who, like yourself, analogize its graduates to garbage men and construction workers. My intelligence is adequate, thank you very much, and my motives are genuine. I simply offer information to those who request it.

So if you have a tier two legal education, Joe, why don't you show it by engaging in a nuanced discussion rather than calling me a liar and storming off in a huff when others challenge your assertions.

You would have been better off going to Vegas and playing craps than attending WM.

Joe's back! I thought you gave up attacking Mitchell's reputation.

WM doesn't really need anyone to attack its reputation. It is pretty much a given that WM is a toilet law school.

[Joe Biden]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Retake and apply again. A few more points and you should get [strike]a nice scholarship offer at WM[/strike] into a real law school. I don't think its in your best interest to accept now at full price.

Fixed.

[greyarea]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

Retake and apply again. A few more points and you should get [strike]a nice scholarship offer at WM[/strike] into a real law school. I don't think its in your best interest to accept now at full price.

Fixed.

Were you molested by some WM staffer when you were growing up in MN or something? You seem way too invested in this debate for a someone who could care less about a TTTT. (I'm an OL planning on going to a LS relatively close to a warm beach, so no, I'm not WM trolling)

[MSP1]

Haven't posted in this thread for a while, but felt compelled to do so because of the extended conversation in the middle of it regarding rank.

William Mitchell has moved into the Top 100 in U.S. News' law school rankings (T-98) for 2011. Upward and onward.

[tamlyric]

Haven't posted in this thread for a while, but felt compelled to do so because of the extended conversation in the middle of it regarding rank.

William Mitchell has moved into the Top 100 in U.S. News' law school rankings (T-98) for 2011. Upward and onward.

Heck yeah!