Is Law School Worth it? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Almost no one has a passion for the law you do in biglaw. Without biglaw, law school is a financial scam for the vast majority of people. Even with biglaw, it takes over a decade to break even on your investment.

I went to CCN with $$$$ and it will take me 3 years of biglaw to payoff my debt, 5 years to be where I would be making 20-40k/yr from my TTT UG or 8 years to make enough money to save a nest egg and find a passion and try to make money off it. That's 11 years of my life wasted to save up a bit of money to do what I could have just done at age 21.

If I could give you advice, unless you really know you love law (very unlikely), spend your youth finding your passion, regardless of the income.

[Anonymous User]

4. If you're really worried about the ROI for your law school education, consider working at a market-paying firm in Texas or Chicago. It is nonsensical that compensation in e.g., Houston is the same as in Manhattan/California right now. Perhaps not ideal places to live for some, but it's financially sensible if you want to rapidly pay off your loans and earn enough money to buy a house and live comfortably. (Don't think for a second, though, that cheap credit is not the culprit for the housing market trends in those locales as well: Houston property prices have risen 25-40% over the past few years despite widespread job losses in the oil and gas sector and a generally poor long-term outlook.)

It's not entirely true that compensation in Texas is the same as NYC. While the headline first year starting salaries are the same, many firms in Texas don't really match all the way through to the senior associate level (either in bonus, salary, or both). Partner compensation tends to be lower as well.

I probably get 6k in Seamless benefits you don't get in TX. You save on car and insurance payments. However, the city and state tax just make the difference unsurmountable

[sparty99]

I am a law school applicant. I was running some numbers and most schools seem to run around approximately 48-50k a year. This translates to about 150K sticker price plus undergraduate loans and any additional loans needed to attend for living costs etc for a total of about 200-250K upon completion of the JD paying sticker price. Six (6) percent interest on 250K is 15K annually in just interest. Assuming a starting lawyer will make a 65K Salary minus taxes clearing about 50K - 50K minus 15K interest is $35K/yearly for a JD degree. Those numbers are somewhat intimidating to look at and that is without paying back the student loan balance at all only keeping up with the interest. Does anyone have thoughts on this? The debt appears to be substantial and most starting lawyers do not seem to make six figures.

I would not attend law school if I facing a debt load above $100k.

[Npret]

As far as other jobs, maybe I’m lucky I live In New York and have friends doing all kinds of interesting and fulfilling work that allows them to have fulfilling lives as well. Some make a lot of money, some have family money and some just do what they love. As you mentioned anthropology, my sister studied that, paid nothing and got a PhD doing incredibly fascinating work that took her all over the world. She has a real job. My mom even got a cheap masters degree in environmental education from the Bronx zoo and Miami university and she’s actually going to do research in the Galapagos and Australia. Another friend writes music for virtual reality games. I have friends that are bartenders and servers and they make enough money to live and then take off for Mexico to work in the winter and they have jobs when they come back. Another girl is a professional artist making a very substantial living in NYC. One of my good friends is a full time twitch streamer; another does entertainment videos on YouTube. Even my younger sister (a piano and English major) has written and directed a pilot that has an excellent shot of being a web series. Even my cousin in accounting in big 4 and my other cousin in real estate brokerage firm here in the city (she was a liberal arts student who went to State school in New Jersey) make great money, have supportive teams and don’t work 24/7.

Those types of jobs - becoming an anthropologist, writing music for VR games, Youtube partner, or environmentalist requires two things the vast majority of attorneys lack: 1. optomistic long term planning; 2. passion aside from "biglaw $180 salary."

In case you haven't noticed being on TLS or other law forums, they don't exactly draw that type of crowd. Instead, many attorneys, especially the ones on TLS-esque like forums, are extremely resistant to taking risks and generally pessimistic.

Committing to years of studying anthropology or playing music well or stuff like running a good business online - it requires the willingness to work really hard with uncertain returns in the future. I've said it many times on this forum, in order to hit it big, you need to take big risks.

That's not a thing here. People want to see there 70% or 90% placement rate in Biglaw. It's Biglaw $180,000 salaries or bust. Any other outcome like getting a JD and becoming successful at running/owning a business or finding your passion doesn't exist, unless that passion is listed and ranked on Vault/US News. Or it's a clerkship that leads to biglaw.

Your friends are just more intelligent and have actual passions. It's a bad comparison. I'm guessing they'd never hangout or want to have a convo longer than 10 minutes with some of the lifers on some of these forums (this one actually gotten much better since some of the lifers left). Many of the successful entrepreneurs I know, engineers, startup founders, artists - you think they like talking to most attorneys when they don't have to?

I'm guessing your successful buddies don't start law forums ranking the "t14 online video website for entertainers" or the Vault 100 of most successful environmentalists and make their career decisions based on that. Just like I'm guessing Marc Jacobs isn't sitting there wondering whether he or Tom Ford is ranked higher on lists no one reads.

Yeah, when you have passion, plan well, and do great work people see the enthusiasm and money will come. You've just preaching to the wrong crowd. You're trying to sell a Christina Aguilera album at a Marilyn Manson concert.

I guess so, but maybe people just need to understand there are thousands of jobs they could do instead of either lawyer or coder. My cousin the real estate broker has a great income and life and barely graduated state college. My bartender/server friends like the freedom and the money. They don’t have passion. Or they do have passion to create the live they want in all aspects, not just income. None of these people are at all interested in discussing salaries or using it as a measure of someone’s worth as a person.

I mentioned anthropology because someone sneered at it as a way to have a good career.

I’m not sure why people here have such limited views of what’s possible. Maybe you’re right, it’s a brain/personality thing and not just lack of looking at the world and seeing what’s out there?

I don’t see law as risk averse because of the huge debt people incur. Borrowing that much undischargable debt for an intangible asset is a much bigger gamble than I would ever consider. Law school is a risk, not a guarantee. You don’t get a biglaw job handed to you when you walk through the door at a top school.

It’s even more of a disconnect to me that people see biglaw salary because money is what they strive for but they fail to calculate the cost they input to get it. All people keep saying is it’s the most money they can earn at a young age.

[anon sequitur]

Crazy how people on a law school message board are so focused on careers in law school.

[Npret]

Crazy how people on a law school message board are so focused on careers in law school.

They are focused on salary. Not careers in law. At least a good number of people seem to only care about what they can make. That’s not a career discussion.

[Anonymous User]

As far as other jobs, maybe I’m lucky I live In New York and have friends doing all kinds of interesting and fulfilling work that allows them to have fulfilling lives as well. Some make a lot of money, some have family money and some just do what they love. As you mentioned anthropology, my sister studied that, paid nothing and got a PhD doing incredibly fascinating work that took her all over the world. She has a real job. My mom even got a cheap masters degree in environmental education from the Bronx zoo and Miami university and she’s actually going to do research in the Galapagos and Australia. Another friend writes music for virtual reality games. I have friends that are bartenders and servers and they make enough money to live and then take off for Mexico to work in the winter and they have jobs when they come back. Another girl is a professional artist making a very substantial living in NYC. One of my good friends is a full time twitch streamer; another does entertainment videos on YouTube. Even my younger sister (a piano and English major) has written and directed a pilot that has an excellent shot of being a web series. Even my cousin in accounting in big 4 and my other cousin in real estate brokerage firm here in the city (she was a liberal arts student who went to State school in New Jersey) make great money, have supportive teams and don’t work 24/7.

Those types of jobs - becoming an anthropologist, writing music for VR games, Youtube partner, or environmentalist requires two things the vast majority of attorneys lack: 1. optomistic long term planning; 2. passion aside from "biglaw $180 salary."

In case you haven't noticed being on TLS or other law forums, they don't exactly draw that type of crowd. Instead, many attorneys, especially the ones on TLS-esque like forums, are extremely resistant to taking risks and generally pessimistic.

Committing to years of studying anthropology or playing music well or stuff like running a good business online - it requires the willingness to work really hard with uncertain returns in the future. I've said it many times on this forum, in order to hit it big, you need to take big risks.

That's not a thing here. People want to see there 70% or 90% placement rate in Biglaw. It's Biglaw $180,000 salaries or bust. Any other outcome like getting a JD and becoming successful at running/owning a business or finding your passion doesn't exist, unless that passion is listed and ranked on Vault/US News. Or it's a clerkship that leads to biglaw.

Your friends are just more intelligent and have actual passions. It's a bad comparison. I'm guessing they'd never hangout or want to have a convo longer than 10 minutes with some of the lifers on some of these forums (this one actually gotten much better since some of the lifers left). Many of the successful entrepreneurs I know, engineers, startup founders, artists - you think they like talking to most attorneys when they don't have to?

I'm guessing your successful buddies don't start law forums ranking the "t14 online video website for entertainers" or the Vault 100 of most successful environmentalists and make their career decisions based on that. Just like I'm guessing Marc Jacobs isn't sitting there wondering whether he or Tom Ford is ranked higher on lists no one reads.

Yeah, when you have passion, plan well, and do great work people see the enthusiasm and money will come. You've just preaching to the wrong crowd. You're trying to sell a Christina Aguilera album at a Marilyn Manson concert.

I guess so, but maybe people just need to understand there are thousands of jobs they could do instead of either lawyer or coder. My cousin the real estate broker has a great income and life and barely graduated state college. My bartender/server friends like the freedom and the money. They don’t have passion. Or they do have passion to create the live they want in all aspects, not just income. None of these people are at all interested in discussing salaries or using it as a measure of someone’s worth as a person.

I mentioned anthropology because someone sneered at it as a way to have a good career.

I’m not sure why people here have such limited views of what’s possible. Maybe you’re right, it’s a brain/personality thing and not just lack of looking at the world and seeing what’s out there?

I don’t see law as risk averse because of the huge debt people incur. Borrowing that much undischargable debt for an intangible asset is a much bigger gamble than I would ever consider. Law school is a risk, not a guarantee. You don’t get a biglaw job handed to you when you walk through the door at a top school.

It’s even more of a disconnect to me that people see biglaw salary because money is what they strive for but they fail to calculate the cost they input to get it. All people keep saying is it’s the most money they can earn at a young age.

Do you think a majority of people earn $180K or something? That’s great about your Ivy League friends. Most of my friends make like $60K after bonus in boring office jobs. But they get to leave 5-6 so that’s the tradeoff.

[Npret]

As far as other jobs, maybe I’m lucky I live In New York and have friends doing all kinds of interesting and fulfilling work that allows them to have fulfilling lives as well. Some make a lot of money, some have family money and some just do what they love. As you mentioned anthropology, my sister studied that, paid nothing and got a PhD doing incredibly fascinating work that took her all over the world. She has a real job. My mom even got a cheap masters degree in environmental education from the Bronx zoo and Miami university and she’s actually going to do research in the Galapagos and Australia. Another friend writes music for virtual reality games. I have friends that are bartenders and servers and they make enough money to live and then take off for Mexico to work in the winter and they have jobs when they come back. Another girl is a professional artist making a very substantial living in NYC. One of my good friends is a full time twitch streamer; another does entertainment videos on YouTube. Even my younger sister (a piano and English major) has written and directed a pilot that has an excellent shot of being a web series. Even my cousin in accounting in big 4 and my other cousin in real estate brokerage firm here in the city (she was a liberal arts student who went to State school in New Jersey) make great money, have supportive teams and don’t work 24/7.

Those types of jobs - becoming an anthropologist, writing music for VR games, Youtube partner, or environmentalist requires two things the vast majority of attorneys lack: 1. optomistic long term planning; 2. passion aside from "biglaw $180 salary."

In case you haven't noticed being on TLS or other law forums, they don't exactly draw that type of crowd. Instead, many attorneys, especially the ones on TLS-esque like forums, are extremely resistant to taking risks and generally pessimistic.

Committing to years of studying anthropology or playing music well or stuff like running a good business online - it requires the willingness to work really hard with uncertain returns in the future. I've said it many times on this forum, in order to hit it big, you need to take big risks.

That's not a thing here. People want to see there 70% or 90% placement rate in Biglaw. It's Biglaw $180,000 salaries or bust. Any other outcome like getting a JD and becoming successful at running/owning a business or finding your passion doesn't exist, unless that passion is listed and ranked on Vault/US News. Or it's a clerkship that leads to biglaw.

Your friends are just more intelligent and have actual passions. It's a bad comparison. I'm guessing they'd never hangout or want to have a convo longer than 10 minutes with some of the lifers on some of these forums (this one actually gotten much better since some of the lifers left). Many of the successful entrepreneurs I know, engineers, startup founders, artists - you think they like talking to most attorneys when they don't have to?

I'm guessing your successful buddies don't start law forums ranking the "t14 online video website for entertainers" or the Vault 100 of most successful environmentalists and make their career decisions based on that. Just like I'm guessing Marc Jacobs isn't sitting there wondering whether he or Tom Ford is ranked higher on lists no one reads.

Yeah, when you have passion, plan well, and do great work people see the enthusiasm and money will come. You've just preaching to the wrong crowd. You're trying to sell a Christina Aguilera album at a Marilyn Manson concert.

I guess so, but maybe people just need to understand there are thousands of jobs they could do instead of either lawyer or coder. My cousin the real estate broker has a great income and life and barely graduated state college. My bartender/server friends like the freedom and the money. They don’t have passion. Or they do have passion to create the live they want in all aspects, not just income. None of these people are at all interested in discussing salaries or using it as a measure of someone’s worth as a person.

I mentioned anthropology because someone sneered at it as a way to have a good career.

I’m not sure why people here have such limited views of what’s possible. Maybe you’re right, it’s a brain/personality thing and not just lack of looking at the world and seeing what’s out there?

I don’t see law as risk averse because of the huge debt people incur. Borrowing that much undischargable debt for an intangible asset is a much bigger gamble than I would ever consider. Law school is a risk, not a guarantee. You don’t get a biglaw job handed to you when you walk through the door at a top school.

It’s even more of a disconnect to me that people see biglaw salary because money is what they strive for but they fail to calculate the cost they input to get it. All people keep saying is it’s the most money they can earn at a young age.

Do you think a majority of people earn $180K or something? That’s great about your Ivy League friends. Most of my friends make like $60K after bonus in boring office jobs. But they get to leave 5-6 so that’s the tradeoff.

No, I gave a list of people that have jobs and lives they enjoy without being focused on 180,000 or 200,000. They also don’t have debt or work 24/7/365.

I’m giving up the discussion because so far the only examples of jobs people have are lawyer, coder or boring office jobs.

If those are the only 3 possible jobs in the world, then taking on nondischargeable debt and betting your future on getting the biglaw job makes more sense to me.

[denmarkwahlberg]

NO

[Anonymous User]

As far as other jobs, maybe I’m lucky I live In New York and have friends doing all kinds of interesting and fulfilling work that allows them to have fulfilling lives as well. Some make a lot of money, some have family money and some just do what they love. As you mentioned anthropology, my sister studied that, paid nothing and got a PhD doing incredibly fascinating work that took her all over the world. She has a real job. My mom even got a cheap masters degree in environmental education from the Bronx zoo and Miami university and she’s actually going to do research in the Galapagos and Australia. Another friend writes music for virtual reality games. I have friends that are bartenders and servers and they make enough money to live and then take off for Mexico to work in the winter and they have jobs when they come back. Another girl is a professional artist making a very substantial living in NYC. One of my good friends is a full time twitch streamer; another does entertainment videos on YouTube. Even my younger sister (a piano and English major) has written and directed a pilot that has an excellent shot of being a web series. Even my cousin in accounting in big 4 and my other cousin in real estate brokerage firm here in the city (she was a liberal arts student who went to State school in New Jersey) make great money, have supportive teams and don’t work 24/7.

Those types of jobs - becoming an anthropologist, writing music for VR games, Youtube partner, or environmentalist requires two things the vast majority of attorneys lack: 1. optomistic long term planning; 2. passion aside from "biglaw $180 salary."

In case you haven't noticed being on TLS or other law forums, they don't exactly draw that type of crowd. Instead, many attorneys, especially the ones on TLS-esque like forums, are extremely resistant to taking risks and generally pessimistic.

Committing to years of studying anthropology or playing music well or stuff like running a good business online - it requires the willingness to work really hard with uncertain returns in the future. I've said it many times on this forum, in order to hit it big, you need to take big risks.

That's not a thing here. People want to see there 70% or 90% placement rate in Biglaw. It's Biglaw $180,000 salaries or bust. Any other outcome like getting a JD and becoming successful at running/owning a business or finding your passion doesn't exist, unless that passion is listed and ranked on Vault/US News. Or it's a clerkship that leads to biglaw.

Your friends are just more intelligent and have actual passions. It's a bad comparison. I'm guessing they'd never hangout or want to have a convo longer than 10 minutes with some of the lifers on some of these forums (this one actually gotten much better since some of the lifers left). Many of the successful entrepreneurs I know, engineers, startup founders, artists - you think they like talking to most attorneys when they don't have to?

I'm guessing your successful buddies don't start law forums ranking the "t14 online video website for entertainers" or the Vault 100 of most successful environmentalists and make their career decisions based on that. Just like I'm guessing Marc Jacobs isn't sitting there wondering whether he or Tom Ford is ranked higher on lists no one reads.

Yeah, when you have passion, plan well, and do great work people see the enthusiasm and money will come. You've just preaching to the wrong crowd. You're trying to sell a Christina Aguilera album at a Marilyn Manson concert.

I guess so, but maybe people just need to understand there are thousands of jobs they could do instead of either lawyer or coder. My cousin the real estate broker has a great income and life and barely graduated state college. My bartender/server friends like the freedom and the money. They don’t have passion. Or they do have passion to create the live they want in all aspects, not just income. None of these people are at all interested in discussing salaries or using it as a measure of someone’s worth as a person.

I mentioned anthropology because someone sneered at it as a way to have a good career.

I’m not sure why people here have such limited views of what’s possible. Maybe you’re right, it’s a brain/personality thing and not just lack of looking at the world and seeing what’s out there?

I don’t see law as risk averse because of the huge debt people incur. Borrowing that much undischargable debt for an intangible asset is a much bigger gamble than I would ever consider. Law school is a risk, not a guarantee. You don’t get a biglaw job handed to you when you walk through the door at a top school.

It’s even more of a disconnect to me that people see biglaw salary because money is what they strive for but they fail to calculate the cost they input to get it. All people keep saying is it’s the most money they can earn at a young age.

Do you think a majority of people earn $180K or something? That’s great about your Ivy League friends. Most of my friends make like $60K after bonus in boring office jobs. But they get to leave 5-6 so that’s the tradeoff.

No, I gave a list of people that have jobs and lives they enjoy without being focused on 180,000 or 200,000. They also don’t have debt or work 24/7/365.

I’m giving up the discussion because so far the only examples of jobs people have are lawyer, coder or boring office jobs.

If those are the only 3 possible jobs in the world, then taking on nondischargeable debt and betting your future on getting the biglaw job makes more sense to me.

Well people are primarily talking about money. Yes it’s obvious that there are other jobs. I think people know they are trading their precious free time for a higher salary so if it’s worth it then that’s really up to you to decide for yourself.

[Anonymous User]

As far as other jobs, maybe I’m lucky I live In New York and have friends doing all kinds of interesting and fulfilling work that allows them to have fulfilling lives as well. Some make a lot of money, some have family money and some just do what they love. As you mentioned anthropology, my sister studied that, paid nothing and got a PhD doing incredibly fascinating work that took her all over the world. She has a real job. My mom even got a cheap masters degree in environmental education from the Bronx zoo and Miami university and she’s actually going to do research in the Galapagos and Australia. Another friend writes music for virtual reality games. I have friends that are bartenders and servers and they make enough money to live and then take off for Mexico to work in the winter and they have jobs when they come back. Another girl is a professional artist making a very substantial living in NYC. One of my good friends is a full time twitch streamer; another does entertainment videos on YouTube. Even my younger sister (a piano and English major) has written and directed a pilot that has an excellent shot of being a web series. Even my cousin in accounting in big 4 and my other cousin in real estate brokerage firm here in the city (she was a liberal arts student who went to State school in New Jersey) make great money, have supportive teams and don’t work 24/7.

Those types of jobs - becoming an anthropologist, writing music for VR games, Youtube partner, or environmentalist requires two things the vast majority of attorneys lack: 1. optomistic long term planning; 2. passion aside from "biglaw $180 salary."

In case you haven't noticed being on TLS or other law forums, they don't exactly draw that type of crowd. Instead, many attorneys, especially the ones on TLS-esque like forums, are extremely resistant to taking risks and generally pessimistic.

Committing to years of studying anthropology or playing music well or stuff like running a good business online - it requires the willingness to work really hard with uncertain returns in the future. I've said it many times on this forum, in order to hit it big, you need to take big risks.

That's not a thing here. People want to see there 70% or 90% placement rate in Biglaw. It's Biglaw $180,000 salaries or bust. Any other outcome like getting a JD and becoming successful at running/owning a business or finding your passion doesn't exist, unless that passion is listed and ranked on Vault/US News. Or it's a clerkship that leads to biglaw.

Your friends are just more intelligent and have actual passions. It's a bad comparison. I'm guessing they'd never hangout or want to have a convo longer than 10 minutes with some of the lifers on some of these forums (this one actually gotten much better since some of the lifers left). Many of the successful entrepreneurs I know, engineers, startup founders, artists - you think they like talking to most attorneys when they don't have to?

I'm guessing your successful buddies don't start law forums ranking the "t14 online video website for entertainers" or the Vault 100 of most successful environmentalists and make their career decisions based on that. Just like I'm guessing Marc Jacobs isn't sitting there wondering whether he or Tom Ford is ranked higher on lists no one reads.

Yeah, when you have passion, plan well, and do great work people see the enthusiasm and money will come. You've just preaching to the wrong crowd. You're trying to sell a Christina Aguilera album at a Marilyn Manson concert.

I guess so, but maybe people just need to understand there are thousands of jobs they could do instead of either lawyer or coder. My cousin the real estate broker has a great income and life and barely graduated state college. My bartender/server friends like the freedom and the money. They don’t have passion. Or they do have passion to create the live they want in all aspects, not just income. None of these people are at all interested in discussing salaries or using it as a measure of someone’s worth as a person.

I mentioned anthropology because someone sneered at it as a way to have a good career.

I’m not sure why people here have such limited views of what’s possible. Maybe you’re right, it’s a brain/personality thing and not just lack of looking at the world and seeing what’s out there?

I don’t see law as risk averse because of the huge debt people incur. Borrowing that much undischargable debt for an intangible asset is a much bigger gamble than I would ever consider. Law school is a risk, not a guarantee. You don’t get a biglaw job handed to you when you walk through the door at a top school.

It’s even more of a disconnect to me that people see biglaw salary because money is what they strive for but they fail to calculate the cost they input to get it. All people keep saying is it’s the most money they can earn at a young age.

Do you think a majority of people earn $180K or something? That’s great about your Ivy League friends. Most of my friends make like $60K after bonus in boring office jobs. But they get to leave 5-6 so that’s the tradeoff.

No, I gave a list of people that have jobs and lives they enjoy without being focused on 180,000 or 200,000. They also don’t have debt or work 24/7/365.

I’m giving up the discussion because so far the only examples of jobs people have are lawyer, coder or boring office jobs.

If those are the only 3 possible jobs in the world, then taking on nondischargeable debt and betting your future on getting the biglaw job makes more sense to me.

Add doctors and bankers. Can't imagine living in NYC on five figures is fun or sustainable.

[nixy]

Completely agree with Npret that the problem is that people have a really narrow vision/limited knowledge of what jobs are out there. There are SO MANY different possible jobs that provide people a reasonable living and a good life. I’m not saying they are all accessible to all of you at this very moment, but there are a lot of ways to structure/plan a career and “making 6 figures 4 years out of undergrad” is a super narrow, short-term one.

[Anonymous User]

Add doctors and bankers. Can't imagine living in NYC on five figures is fun or sustainable.

I know a few girls that use to work as waitresses and bartenders in NYC in their early/mid 20s. They lived with like a few roommates in an apartment, would go out all the time, partied lots. Still had money for travel. They worked at pretty hip restaurants and go out after. Seemed like people that worked at other restaurants, bars and clubs knew each other and would just let each other in no line/no cover. Lots of free drinks, and even at concerts or other events, they knew people from the service industry and could just get in for free.

They told me that I should definitely try it and should experience it for a year, so I did in another city more expensive than NYC (I had 6 roommates). It was great, compared to now as an Attorney, I partied a lot more, had a much better dating life, and more fun. The food/hospitality/service industry is full of attractive people that like to go out. Industry nights were a lot of fun.

A lot of them make more than you think, especially bartenders and servers at nightclubs. They probably take in more on a weekend than a lot of attorneys with loans getting by in general litigation/bankruptcy/collections or low-bono family/criminal firms. I know some servers at nightclubs that take in $4000+ a weekend.

Most people who think "living on five figures" is difficult in the city are just thinking way long term - about family, kids, owning a house, paying off their debt.

If you're single, plan to stay single for awhile, and don't have large loans to pay off, it's actually pretty fantastic to work a chill job in the city. I still know some people doing in into their 30s.

Just depends on if you want to settle down or not. Some people are fun staying single, partying, and dating new people versus settling down in the suburbs.

[Anonymous User]

Add doctors and bankers. Can't imagine living in NYC on five figures is fun or sustainable.

I know a few girls that use to work as waitresses and bartenders in NYC in their early/mid 20s. They lived with like a few roommates in an apartment, would go out all the time, partied lots. Still had money for travel. They worked at pretty hip restaurants and go out after. Seemed like people that worked at other restaurants, bars and clubs knew each other and would just let each other in no line/no cover. Lots of free drinks, and even at concerts or other events, they knew people from the service industry and could just get in for free.

They told me that I should definitely try it and should experience it for a year, so I did in another city more expensive than NYC (I had 6 roommates). It was great, compared to now as an Attorney, I partied a lot more, had a much better dating life, and more fun. The food/hospitality/service industry is full of attractive people that like to go out. Industry nights were a lot of fun.

A lot of them make more than you think, especially bartenders and servers at nightclubs. They probably take in more on a weekend than a lot of attorneys with loans getting by in general litigation/bankruptcy/collections or low-bono family/criminal firms. I know some servers at nightclubs that take in $4000+ a weekend.

Most people who think "living on five figures" is difficult in the city are just thinking way long term - about family, kids, owning a house, paying off their debt.

If you're single, plan to stay single for awhile, and don't have large loans to pay off, it's actually pretty fantastic to work a chill job in the city. I still know some people doing in into their 30s.

Just depends on if you want to settle down or not. Some people are fun staying single, partying, and dating new people versus settling down in the suburbs.

It sounds like they were pulling down six figures or pretty close, especially after factoring in perks. I wasn't suggesting that only bankers, doctors, and the people you mentioned were able to make six figures.

[Anonymous User]

It sounds like they were pulling down six figures or pretty close, especially after factoring in perks. I wasn't suggesting that only bankers, doctors, and the people you mentioned were able to make six figures.

I doubt they were in six figures, hence the multiple roommates in small apartment.

Knowing what I know about the service/food/hospitality industry, I would guess they were $70,000s. It's possible to make 6 digits as a server, but it's really rare. They were not working at ultra fancy, expensive restaurants.

Also, "difficult" to live is really a relative term. To me, it's less difficult to live in NYC on $75,000, work a low pressure job, not owe any loans, and have plenty of time to have fun, than it is to make $175,000 at a 60 hour a week, annoying desk job around people that stress me out, while owing $150,000 in student loans.


Most Attorneys just highly value upper middle-class lifestyle with the dream of being a millionaire (either as a biglaw partner or winning a tort case) - especially the ones that congregate on law school forums. The men want to feel high powered and think it'll increase their chances with better looking women, meanwhile the women think it'll give them higher social status and they'll feel fancier. Which is why they'll spend a year or more prepping and retaking the LSATs.

They want their BMW, suits, the dream of a nice house, and for people to think they're status because they work a 6 digit job. The chance of making partner so they can buy that Maybach or Porsche, and live in the Hamptons, and do their Harvey Specter impression keeps that dream alive.

There are plenty of happy people that have a lots of fun and enjoy life that make less than 6 digits - and yes, plenty of them live in NYC or other expensive cities. It's only difficult if you're actually poor or you make it difficult by overspending on dumb, un-necessary things (which attorneys are also good at doing).

[Anonymous User]

It sounds like they were pulling down six figures or pretty close, especially after factoring in perks. I wasn't suggesting that only bankers, doctors, and the people you mentioned were able to make six figures.

I doubt they were in six figures, hence the multiple roommates in small apartment.

Knowing what I know about the service/food/hospitality industry, I would guess they were $70,000s. It's possible to make 6 digits as a server, but it's really rare. They were not working at ultra fancy, expensive restaurants.

Also, "difficult" to live is really a relative term. To me, it's less difficult to live in NYC on $75,000, work a low pressure job, not owe any loans, and have plenty of time to have fun, than it is to make $175,000 at a 60 hour a week, annoying desk job around people that stress me out, while owing $150,000 in student loans.


Most Attorneys just highly value upper middle-class lifestyle with the dream of being a millionaire (either as a biglaw partner or winning a tort case) - especially the ones that congregate on law school forums. The men want to feel high powered and think it'll increase their chances with better looking women, meanwhile the women think it'll give them higher social status and they'll feel fancier. Which is why they'll spend a year or more prepping and retaking the LSATs.

They want their BMW, suits, the dream of a nice house, and for people to think they're status because they work a 6 digit job. The chance of making partner so they can buy that Maybach or Porsche, and live in the Hamptons, and do their Harvey Specter impression keeps that dream alive.

There are plenty of happy people that have a lots of fun and enjoy life that make less than 6 digits - and yes, plenty of them live in NYC or other expensive cities. It's only difficult if you're actually poor or you make it difficult by overspending on dumb, un-necessary things (which attorneys are also good at doing).

Are you factoring in not having to pay taxes on much of that?

[MillllerTime]

It sounds like they were pulling down six figures or pretty close, especially after factoring in perks. I wasn't suggesting that only bankers, doctors, and the people you mentioned were able to make six figures.

I doubt they were in six figures, hence the multiple roommates in small apartment.

Knowing what I know about the service/food/hospitality industry, I would guess they were $70,000s. It's possible to make 6 digits as a server, but it's really rare. They were not working at ultra fancy, expensive restaurants.

Also, "difficult" to live is really a relative term. To me, it's less difficult to live in NYC on $75,000, work a low pressure job, not owe any loans, and have plenty of time to have fun, than it is to make $175,000 at a 60 hour a week, annoying desk job around people that stress me out, while owing $150,000 in student loans.


Most Attorneys just highly value upper middle-class lifestyle with the dream of being a millionaire (either as a biglaw partner or winning a tort case) - especially the ones that congregate on law school forums. The men want to feel high powered and think it'll increase their chances with better looking women, meanwhile the women think it'll give them higher social status and they'll feel fancier. Which is why they'll spend a year or more prepping and retaking the LSATs.

They want their BMW, suits, the dream of a nice house, and for people to think they're status because they work a 6 digit job. The chance of making partner so they can buy that Maybach or Porsche, and live in the Hamptons, and do their Harvey Specter impression keeps that dream alive.

There are plenty of happy people that have a lots of fun and enjoy life that make less than 6 digits - and yes, plenty of them live in NYC or other expensive cities. It's only difficult if you're actually poor or you make it difficult by overspending on dumb, un-necessary things (which attorneys are also good at doing).

I understand that there are plenty of lawyers out there chasing prestige and keeping up with the Joneses, but most biglaw attorneys I know are not making six figures just so they can go spend said six figures on bottle service and BMWs. Most are buying homes (I'm in Chi, not NYC/SF where this would be crazy) and otherwise saving six figures per year so that we can retire relatively-young and stop hustling all the time. I'm excited for a $15k raise and a summer bonus because I can throw it in a Vanguard account and watch my expected retirement date jump forward 9 months, not so I can go spend 50% of it on Dom.

I lived that low-income, 5-roommate life for a few years in my 20s and loved it, but it isn't sustainable for most personalities. It's stressful in its own way and gets less and less satisfying as you get older and friends around you settle down. Law school was the best way for me to transition into a corporate job that allowed me to save money and "settle down." Again, that was the case because I went to a top school and took out minimal (less than $50k) debt, which I can't preach enough.

[Anonymous User]

I lived that low-income, 5-roommate life for a few years in my 20s and loved it, but it isn't sustainable for most personalities. It's stressful in its own way and gets less and less satisfying as you get older and friends around you settle down. Law school was the best way for me to transition into a corporate job that allowed me to save money and "settle down." Again, that was the case because I went to a top school and took out minimal (less than $50k) debt, which I can't preach enough.

I think that's a misconception, that it isn't sustainable for "most personalities." Most Americans I know, they plan to marry, get an office/day job, move to the suburbs, and have a family. Then live out the rest of their lives until they die. That's what's expected, it's normalcy.

Yet, the majority of these people end up divorced, and few people actually stay in 1 career let alone 1 job anymore. Some end up divorced, fighting over custody or spousal support, unhappy with their work lives, unable to pay off their large debts because they over consume thinking they'll love their unhappiness. In certain professions, the stress of all this might make them pick up a drinking problem or drugs.

Look at Asian Americans, they're the most educated demographic in the U.S., and they also have the highest average annual salaries. Asian American attorneys have all that, are over-represented at top schools, and have the lowest student debt, yet still have a higher rate of leaving their profession or big law firms. They also have above average depression rates, despite being better than the average Americans at achieving the American dream.

Most Americans would probably do better doing the exact opposite of what you said. They should take a more relaxing job, cut down their commute, have less student debt, worrying less about "keeping up with the joneses", date and have fun longer. Most of the people I know who married in their 20s, settled into office jobs, have kids, are now in their late 30s and regret their decisions. I currently live in a major city, and I've met plenty of women who tell me they had kids too early, wish they never married. I'm guessing if they got this out of their system later before trying to achieve what was expected, they'd be a lot happier.

[BasilHallward]

I lived that low-income, 5-roommate life for a few years in my 20s and loved it, but it isn't sustainable for most personalities. It's stressful in its own way and gets less and less satisfying as you get older and friends around you settle down. Law school was the best way for me to transition into a corporate job that allowed me to save money and "settle down." Again, that was the case because I went to a top school and took out minimal (less than $50k) debt, which I can't preach enough.

I think that's a misconception, that it isn't sustainable for "most personalities." Most Americans I know, they plan to marry, get an office/day job, move to the suburbs, and have a family. Then live out the rest of their lives until they die. That's what's expected, it's normalcy.

Yet, the majority of these people end up divorced, and few people actually stay in 1 career let alone 1 job anymore. Some end up divorced, fighting over custody or spousal support, unhappy with their work lives, unable to pay off their large debts because they over consume thinking they'll love their unhappiness. In certain professions, the stress of all this might make them pick up a drinking problem or drugs.

Look at Asian Americans, they're the most educated demographic in the U.S., and they also have the highest average annual salaries. Asian American attorneys have all that, are over-represented at top schools, and have the lowest student debt, yet still have a higher rate of leaving their profession or big law firms. They also have above average depression rates, despite being better than the average Americans at achieving the American dream.

Most Americans would probably do better doing the exact opposite of what you said. They should take a more relaxing job, cut down their commute, have less student debt, worrying less about "keeping up with the joneses", date and have fun longer. Most of the people I know who married in their 20s, settled into office jobs, have kids, are now in their late 30s and regret their decisions. I currently live in a major city, and I've met plenty of women who tell me they had kids too early, wish they never married. I'm guessing if they got this out of their system later before trying to achieve what was expected, they'd be a lot happier.

Great anon.