Law Grads: Did you regret turning down an Ivy? Forum

[landshoes]

But why would they need someone over the 75th percentile if that is not reported?

I think employers in Entertainment/IP or PI law would want you to have not only relevant coursework, but more importantly relevant experience. Like I said, the attorneys I know who make contracts for Vogue and other world renowned magazines/companies, went to Cardozo/Brooklyn and just took lots of internships in entertainment law in NYC in order to hone their skills and have that experience (and connections) that will be necessary in the job they want.

they are willing to train "good" people who don't have a lot of experience, and they think good people come from "good" schools. Law people are snobby as fuck.

You see people who went to Cardozo having to do a bunch of internships just to get their foot in the door, and you are thinking "oh everyone has to do it and Cardozo lets you do that!"

no. what you are seeing is people from those schools having to do a bunch of free/underpaid work, ON TOP of their law school education, ON TOP of passing the bar etc., just to get their foot in the door.

people from schools with better reputations literally get hired with three months of summer work experience, sometimes less. the evidence is showing the complete opposite of what you seem to think it's showing.

also what are you talking about with the 75th percentile thing? If your LSAT is high it could bring up their median or it could bring up their 75th percentile. or it could give them a little bit of insurance in case another 75th percentile+ person gets off the waitlist at another school. Your LSAT doesn't have to be RIGHT ON the 75th percentile and then after that they tell you to fuck off because your LSAT is too high.

I see. That is a good point. But in that case, why is it that Cornell people do not go into fields that are not BigLaw? I get that it may be self-selection because those tend to be the highest paying jobs, but many people seem to go into BigLaw in order to pay off their loans and then stay because there are no "exit strategies."

It pays a ton of money and can make you a lot of excellent connections. I think that there are exit strategies; a lot of people leave biglaw!

What I do think you're right about is that there is a certain "type" that goes to a school like Cornell---relatively risk-averse and wanting to do a boring, safe, job. I get that you are not that person.

Honestly, Cornell is a great school, but what I hear you saying is that going to school in NYC or in an entertainment-centric place is probably better for you. Fordham is giving you a shitty deal; 40k is going to mean you will pay 20k a year in tuition (right?) and the cost of living in NYC. That is too much.

Take a year off. Keep making connections. Pre-law-school connections do help. Re-take the LSAT for a school that will get you closer to your goals. Think about something like UCLA if you want to be somewhere you can network. Fordham at night might actually be a decent bet but I don't know enough about it to say either way.

Starting law school at 26 is nothing. It's not like college where you'd be the weird one...it's normal to be a little older. No one cares.

[landshoes]

Also, honestly, the major reason people go into biglaw is because that's where the jobs are.

The legal market is not great and biglaw is...big.

[HamlinMcgill]

From reading this thread and the other one posted by OP, I get the sense that this is really about fear of leaving the familiarity of NYC. Everything else seems like rationalization. Niche course offerings, the number of months of maternity leave available under LRAP, etc don't really matter in the bigger scheme of things. Debt, of course, should be a major consideration -- but the fact that OP is talking about trying to transfer to NYU for sticker makes me think that's not even the main thing. If fear of moving away is really the main factor here, then at least acknowledge that so you can be honest with yourself and stop searching for other reasons to turn down Cornell.

I think people would be much more sympathetic if the choice were Cornell at sticker vs. a full-ride at a slightly lower ranked school. But Cornell at half-price is a really good outcome. It's hard for people to understand why you would turn that down for Fordham, especially less than a full ride at Fordham. It's a big gamble (in terms of the higher chance of being unemployed or employed at some miserable doc review job) without that big of a payoff (in terms of reduced debt).

I'm also confused how you're still debating these offers in late June. Were you allowed to double or triple deposit? When is your deadline?

[pancakes3]

even if OP isn't intentionally trolling, he/she might as well be.

school starts in 2 months and he/she already lapsed in his Cornell deposit. inertia is going to carry him to Fordham or Cardozo. Just leave it be, TLS (landshoes). You can't save everyone.

[BizBro]

nah im at a firm with HLS and columbia kids and i had shitty below median grades, winning.

[silverdoe91]

nah im at a firm with HLS and columbia kids and i had shitty below median grades, winning.

Which law school did you go to?

[lavarman84]

Yes, I agree that connections and experience are important for a lot of jobs, especially outside of biglaw. I just don't agree that somehow Cornell students are hamstring in getting experience and making connections. A lot of that is on the individual student anyway.

It definitely won't. Like I said, I agree with Landshoes advice. I was just correcting it as far as making the point that you still have to hustle and work a lot of internships to get your foot in the door because of how competitive those jobs are. Going to a better school will make getting those internships easier. Which is why it's sound advice.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes, I agree that connections and experience are important for a lot of jobs, especially outside of biglaw. I just don't agree that somehow Cornell students are hamstring in getting experience and making connections. A lot of that is on the individual student anyway.

It definitely won't. Like I said, I agree with Landshoes advice. I was just correcting it as far as making the point that you still have to hustle and work a lot of internships to get your foot in the door because of how competitive those jobs are. Going to a better school will make getting those internships easier. Which is why it's sound advice.

Yeah, I should have made clear I was disagreeing with the OP's disdain of Cornell, not your overall point. I think we're on the same page.

[silverdoe91]

It pays a ton of money and can make you a lot of excellent connections. I think that there are exit strategies; a lot of people leave biglaw!

What I do think you're right about is that there is a certain "type" that goes to a school like Cornell---relatively risk-averse and wanting to do a boring, safe, job. I get that you are not that person.

Honestly, Cornell is a great school, but what I hear you saying is that going to school in NYC or in an entertainment-centric place is probably better for you. Fordham is giving you a shitty deal; 40k is going to mean you will pay 20k a year in tuition (right?) and the cost of living in NYC. That is too much.

Take a year off. Keep making connections. Pre-law-school connections do help. Re-take the LSAT for a school that will get you closer to your goals. Think about something like UCLA if you want to be somewhere you can network. Fordham at night might actually be a decent bet but I don't know enough about it to say either way.

Starting law school at 26 is nothing. It's not like college where you'd be the weird one...it's normal to be a little older. No one cares.

I'm not that adamant about entertainment law, it just bothers me that there's NO intellectual property at Cornell at all...what if I end up liking that field and would like to go into it? I would have no way of knowing by taking just one class at Cornell...

Fordham's tuition is 54k a year, so with a 40k scholarship I would be paying $14k a year. I would not have living expenses, as I could live at home if I stay in the city. Altogether Fordham's price would be 1/3 of Cornell, with a wider range of classes and opportunities to intern in New York City (BigLaw, Public Interest, Government, Intellectual Property, etc.) Plus I could get a shot at prestigious roles like government honors positions or fellowships that I might not get at a tier 2 school like Cardozo. Let me know if I'm missing something.

[silverdoe91]

Yeah, I should have made clear I was disagreeing with the OP's disdain of Cornell, not your overall point. I think we're on the same page.

I don't have disdain for Cornell! I just don't think it is a very practical option given my goals and desires.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There is absolutely no way that Cornell doesn't offer intellectual property law. None.

Edit: here you go -

LAW 6511 Intellectual Property
LAW 6742 Patent Law
LAW 6053 Advanced Legal Research in Intellectual Property Law
LAW 6893 Technology Transactions
LAW 7156 Copyright Litigation Lawyering
LAW 7783 Topics in Intellectual Property
LAW 6201 First Amendment Law

[JenDarby]

~50k at Fordham all in if you really won't have much living expenses is a point where it does start to look attractive. You could manage that debt as a starbucks barista

[Meow Meowsworth]

It pays a ton of money and can make you a lot of excellent connections. I think that there are exit strategies; a lot of people leave biglaw!

What I do think you're right about is that there is a certain "type" that goes to a school like Cornell---relatively risk-averse and wanting to do a boring, safe, job. I get that you are not that person.

Honestly, Cornell is a great school, but what I hear you saying is that going to school in NYC or in an entertainment-centric place is probably better for you. Fordham is giving you a shitty deal; 40k is going to mean you will pay 20k a year in tuition (right?) and the cost of living in NYC. That is too much.

Take a year off. Keep making connections. Pre-law-school connections do help. Re-take the LSAT for a school that will get you closer to your goals. Think about something like UCLA if you want to be somewhere you can network. Fordham at night might actually be a decent bet but I don't know enough about it to say either way.

Starting law school at 26 is nothing. It's not like college where you'd be the weird one...it's normal to be a little older. No one cares.

I'm not that adamant about entertainment law, it just bothers me that there's NO intellectual property at Cornell at all...what if I end up liking that field and would like to go into it? I would have no way of knowing by taking just one class at Cornell...

Fordham's tuition is 54k a year, so with a 40k scholarship I would be paying $14k a year. I would not have living expenses, as I could live at home if I stay in the city. Altogether Fordham's price would be 1/3 of Cornell, with a wider range of classes and opportunities to intern in New York City (BigLaw, Public Interest, Government, Intellectual Property, etc.) Plus I could get a shot at prestigious roles like government honors positions or fellowships that I might not get at a tier 2 school like Cardozo. Let me know if I'm missing something.

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

[A. Nony Mouse]

~50k at Fordham all in if you really won't have much living expenses is a point where it does start to look attractive. You could manage that debt as a starbucks barista

It's not a terrible idea at all. The OP just has some weird ideas about why not Cornell.

[BizBro]

nah im at a firm with HLS and columbia kids and i had shitty below median grades, winning.

Which law school did you go to?

Granted it's NYU, but I know people who turned down full rides here for HYS.

[JenDarby]

nah im at a firm with HLS and columbia kids and i had shitty below median grades, winning.

Which law school did you go to?

Granted it's NYU, but I know people who turned down full rides here for HYS.

most people frivolously spend on less valuable things than prestige

[silverdoe91]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

[silverdoe91]

~50k at Fordham all in if you really won't have much living expenses is a point where it does start to look attractive. You could manage that debt as a starbucks barista

I'm considering staying at my current job (entertainment law) and taking night classes at Fordham...I think that would be more than enough to cover my costs. But I am worried about how my grades might take a dive due to working full time & studying simultaneously.

[silverdoe91]

nah im at a firm with HLS and columbia kids and i had shitty below median grades, winning.

Which law school did you go to?

Granted it's NYU, but I know people who turned down full rides here for HYS.

Well, as an NYU grad you still went to an Ivy, so you have plenty of the same career options open to you as HYS. I'm talking more about passing on an Ivy for schools that are not in the T14.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

[silverdoe91]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

[A. Nony Mouse]

The Ivy League is a totally different thing from the T14. The T14 is based on law school rankings/employment opportunities. The Ivy League is an athletic conference including Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, UPenn, Princeton, and Yale. (By now it has lots of connotations outside of being a sports league, but that's its technical meaning.) More of the T14 is not in the Ivy League than is.

Also, OP, another possibility would be to go to Cornell but spend your 3L year as visiting student at Fordham or Cardozo.

[ronanOgara]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

Seriously?

[Hildegard15]

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

[silverdoe91]

The Ivy League is a totally different thing from the T14. The T14 is based on law school rankings/employment opportunities. The Ivy League is an athletic conference including Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, UPenn, Princeton, and Yale. (By now it has lots of connotations outside of being a sports league, but that's its technical meaning.) More of the T14 is not in the Ivy League than is.

Also, OP, another possibility would be to go to Cornell but spend your 3L year as visiting student at Fordham or Cardozo.

Thanks for the explanation! Hmm...that does seem like an interesting option. I was thinking of doing that at NYU, but I don't know what are the odds for them accepting me into their program, since all the schools I got into are lower ranked...also when I am a visiting student do I pay tuition to the school I am visiting or my "home" school?