So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[jkpolk]

Obviously ex ante if you want to be in consulting, business side F500, banking, etc. you should just hustle or go M7. But once you have significant experience managing junior lawyers on huge deals at an elite firm, there must be some way to spin that and a GMAT score into HBS (assuming you know you want out), right? Understandably it would suck to go back to square 1, incur debt and lose two years of earnings - but if it's that or beat your head against the wall seems like an obvious (albeit difficult) choice.

[nealric]

Second, I need to talk about the work itself. It's the most tedious thing on earth. Some areas (M&A) are better than others (capital markets, bank finance, tax), but ultimately there are 20 points the people actually care about in any deal, and you're not responsible for any of them. You're also not responsible for the points people *don't* care about. You're a scribe.

Why on earth would you come to this conclusion about tax? It's nothing like you describe. The tax structure can significantly impact the underlying economics of a deal. They care very much.

[7a1]

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[fliptrip]

OP, thanks for doing this. It does a great job of making clear exactly what the job entails and anyone who still follows your path after reading this can definitely be said to have been fairly warned.

[nealric]

Obviously ex ante if you want to be in consulting, business side F500, banking, etc. you should just hustle or go M7. But once you have significant experience managing junior lawyers on huge deals at an elite firm, there must be some way to spin that and a GMAT score into HBS (assuming you know you want out), right? Understandably it would suck to go back to square 1, incur debt and lose two years of earnings - but if it's that or beat your head against the wall seems like an obvious (albeit difficult) choice.

I would point out that people have similar complaints about to law for those alternatives. Consulting is just building meaningless "decks" (after taking the 3AM red eye to BFE). Banking is just excel monkey work and assembling stupid pitch books. Business side F500 just combines the banking excel monkey work with the consulting deck construction. Consulting and banking are all up or out just like law. Business a much more uncertain path towards advancement and plenty of politics.

The bottom line is that any profession has the potential to make you miserable doing too many hours of boring work. Ultimately, you have to be the author of your own happiness.

[fliptrip]

Obviously ex ante if you want to be in consulting, business side F500, banking, etc. you should just hustle or go M7. But once you have significant experience managing junior lawyers on huge deals at an elite firm, there must be some way to spin that and a GMAT score into HBS (assuming you know you want out), right? Understandably it would suck to go back to square 1, incur debt and lose two years of earnings - but if it's that or beat your head against the wall seems like an obvious (albeit difficult) choice.

I would point out that people have similar complaints about to law for those alternatives. Consulting is just building meaningless "decks" (after taking the 3AM red eye to BFE). Banking is just excel monkey work and assembling stupid pitch books. Business side F500 just combines the banking excel monkey work with the consulting deck construction. Consulting and banking are all up or out just like law. Business a much more uncertain path towards advancement and plenty of politics.

The bottom line is that any profession has the potential to make you miserable doing too many hours of boring work. Ultimately, you have to be the author of your own happiness.

MBB alum here. I'll say that yes, the work is endless obsessing over one killer slide that you're hoping makes it into the deck, but the work is most certainly not rote, and you are expected and required to use your brain to come up with insights and solutions. But, travel expectations depend heavily on the firm you work for (don't like travel=don't work for McK) and also the office/practice area you're in. And yes, it is up or out, but it's a shorter and very clearly defined track and if you do exit, your options are generally pretty damn good.

[nealric]

Obviously ex ante if you want to be in consulting, business side F500, banking, etc. you should just hustle or go M7. But once you have significant experience managing junior lawyers on huge deals at an elite firm, there must be some way to spin that and a GMAT score into HBS (assuming you know you want out), right? Understandably it would suck to go back to square 1, incur debt and lose two years of earnings - but if it's that or beat your head against the wall seems like an obvious (albeit difficult) choice.

I would point out that people have similar complaints about to law for those alternatives. Consulting is just building meaningless "decks" (after taking the 3AM red eye to BFE). Banking is just excel monkey work and assembling stupid pitch books. Business side F500 just combines the banking excel monkey work with the consulting deck construction. Consulting and banking are all up or out just like law. Business a much more uncertain path towards advancement and plenty of politics.

The bottom line is that any profession has the potential to make you miserable doing too many hours of boring work. Ultimately, you have to be the author of your own happiness.

MBB alum here. I'll say that yes, the work is endless obsessing over one killer slide that you're hoping makes it into the deck, but the work is most certainly not rote, and you are expected and required to use your brain to come up with insights and solutions. But, travel expectations depend heavily on the firm you work for (don't like travel=don't work for McK) and also the office/practice area you're in. And yes, it is up or out, but it's a shorter and very clearly defined track and if you do exit, your options are generally pretty damn good.

Not really any different from my biglaw experience- just replace "decks" with "memos and opinions".

[favabeansoup]

I guess I'll throw my experiences into this thread.

I definitely agree with BernieTrump's description. Corporate work can be grueling and soul crushing and pointless.

I think it is really important to law students and others to realize though that this isn't an across the board experience. There are plenty of other markets besides NY, and cultures in firms can differ greatly. To emphasis what OP has already said his desire to stay in NY, which is completely fine, and his desire not to practice law anymore are significant factors in him not finding other work. If you aren't interested in NY and you want the law to be your career (even if it is soul crushing), you may not have the same experience as him.

I work in TX, and no one at my firm at least is working the hours that OP is describing, even senior associates. Nor are we expected to be at the office if work is slow that day. We are expected to be on call, but we don't have anything like OP's facetime requirements. I would say higher end is around 2100-2200 for billables (not the 2400-2500 OP was doing). Yes there are cancelled plans and trips, but I've found that to be the rare case actually. Curious to hear how others in Chicago/LA/SF/other markets feel about craziness of their hours/facetime requirements vs. NYC's.

My overall comp is a decent amount less than NYC firms, and honestly I'm probably not working on deals the size that OP is, so that might help explain some of the differences.

I think it is also important for law students to know that what you'll make as a biglaw associate is the most you'll likely make in your career for a long time, possibly ever. I'm still relatively junior, but I know that I'm going to take a significant paycut when I try and move in house in a few years. I've been paying off my loans, building a nice nest egg, and keeping my spending in check in light of this. I don't expect to put on any GC path if I move, and my while work hours/load might not significantly change, my anxiety levels from the sometimes crippling law firm atmosphere will go down at least. I've talked to numerous in house attorneys who have pointed to the decreased anxiety as a huge plus for them.

If you aren't looking to make $$$ and are willing to live in a variety of places besides NY, there are plenty of options for lawyers to lead solid middle-upper middle class lifestyles after a biglaw career.

[Rahviveh]

I guess I'll throw my experiences into this thread.

I definitely agree with BernieTrump's description. Corporate work can be grueling and soul crushing and pointless.

I think it is really important to law students and others to realize though that this isn't an across the board experience. There are plenty of other markets besides NY, and cultures in firms can differ greatly. To emphasis what OP has already said his desire to stay in NY, which is completely fine, and his desire not to practice law anymore are significant factors in him not finding other work. If you aren't interested in NY and you want the law to be your career (even if it is soul crushing), you may not have the same experience as him.

I work in TX, and no one at my firm at least is working the hours that OP is describing, even senior associates. Nor are we expected to be at the office if work is slow that day. We are expected to be on call, but we don't have anything like OP's facetime requirements. I would say higher end is around 2100-2200 for billables (not the 2400-2500 OP was doing). Yes there are cancelled plans and trips, but I've found that to be the rare case actually. Curious to hear how others in Chicago/LA/SF/other markets feel about craziness of their hours/facetime requirements vs. NYC's.

My overall comp is a decent amount less than NYC firms, and honestly I'm probably not working on deals the size that OP is, so that might help explain some of the differences.

I think it is also important for law students to know that what you'll make as a biglaw associate is the most you'll likely make in your career for a long time, possibly ever. I'm still relatively junior, but I know that I'm going to take a significant paycut when I try and move in house in a few years. I've been paying off my loans, building a nice nest egg, and keeping my spending in check in light of this. I don't expect to put on any GC path if I move, and my while work hours/load might not significantly change, my anxiety levels from the sometimes crippling law firm atmosphere will go down at least. I've talked to numerous in house attorneys who have pointed to the decreased anxiety as a huge plus for them.

If you aren't looking to make $$$ and are willing to live in a variety of places besides NY, there are plenty of options for lawyers to lead solid middle-upper middle class lifestyles after a biglaw career.

Pretty sure OP is at cravath which is a special kind of hellhole. He wouldn't have this attitude if he was at wachtell. Solution in NY is to go to a chill v15 firm instead

[Rahviveh]

Obviously ex ante if you want to be in consulting, business side F500, banking, etc. you should just hustle or go M7. But once you have significant experience managing junior lawyers on huge deals at an elite firm, there must be some way to spin that and a GMAT score into HBS (assuming you know you want out), right? Understandably it would suck to go back to square 1, incur debt and lose two years of earnings - but if it's that or beat your head against the wall seems like an obvious (albeit difficult) choice.

LOL at going from biglaw to bschool so you can go to fucking BANKING. Most MBAs avoid banking like the plague

[ManOurHouseisGreat]

I read through the entire thread and I still don't understand why you don't just quit.

[nealric]

I read through the entire thread and I still don't understand why you don't just quit.

By the time you are a senior associate any other job is probably going to be a pretty significant pay cut, and that partnership carrot is just in front of your nose. Plus, a some people are going to be miserable anywhere they go. Might as well stay with the devil you know.

[Budfox55]

Why did you decide to leave banking to go to law school only to head into corporate?

I come from essentially the same background as you pre-LS (0L now),OP, but the reason why I'm going to LS is to head into lit with the eventual goal of government. I feel like going into corporate only really makes sense if you didn't go to a highly ranked UG and couldn't get a good finance/consulting/industry job out of school, but you still wanted something in that realm that paid well. Most of my friends from college who went/are going into LS are also following this gov/PI route with a few who want to head into corporate bc they want to head back to their small market hometowns and being corporate lawyer is essentially the best job there is in those markets (or their parents are partners and will hook them up). I don't mean to sound condescending in this post or anything, but I'm just really curious about the elite UG-->LS-->corporate law in NY move. Just doesn't really make sense to me, but it seems like a decent amount of people do it.

[AdamDeMamp]

I guess I'll throw my experiences into this thread.

I definitely agree with BernieTrump's description. Corporate work can be grueling and soul crushing and pointless.

I think it is really important to law students and others to realize though that this isn't an across the board experience. There are plenty of other markets besides NY, and cultures in firms can differ greatly. To emphasis what OP has already said his desire to stay in NY, which is completely fine, and his desire not to practice law anymore are significant factors in him not finding other work. If you aren't interested in NY and you want the law to be your career (even if it is soul crushing), you may not have the same experience as him.

I work in TX, and no one at my firm at least is working the hours that OP is describing, even senior associates. Nor are we expected to be at the office if work is slow that day. We are expected to be on call, but we don't have anything like OP's facetime requirements. I would say higher end is around 2100-2200 for billables (not the 2400-2500 OP was doing). Yes there are cancelled plans and trips, but I've found that to be the rare case actually. Curious to hear how others in Chicago/LA/SF/other markets feel about craziness of their hours/facetime requirements vs. NYC's.

My overall comp is a decent amount less than NYC firms, and honestly I'm probably not working on deals the size that OP is, so that might help explain some of the differences.

I think it is also important for law students to know that what you'll make as a biglaw associate is the most you'll likely make in your career for a long time, possibly ever. I'm still relatively junior, but I know that I'm going to take a significant paycut when I try and move in house in a few years. I've been paying off my loans, building a nice nest egg, and keeping my spending in check in light of this. I don't expect to put on any GC path if I move, and my while work hours/load might not significantly change, my anxiety levels from the sometimes crippling law firm atmosphere will go down at least. I've talked to numerous in house attorneys who have pointed to the decreased anxiety as a huge plus for them.

If you aren't looking to make $$$ and are willing to live in a variety of places besides NY, there are plenty of options for lawyers to lead solid middle-upper middle class lifestyles after a biglaw career.

Pretty sure OP is at cravath which is a special kind of hellhole. He wouldn't have this attitude if he was at wachtell. Solution in NY is to go to a chill v15 firm instead

I don't think OP is at cravath; I assumed sullcrom. Cravath has the rotation system, and supposedly every corp associate rotates once through each of their corporate practice groups before even considering specialization. Given one of OP's complaints was about early specialization and being forced to specialize instead of being a generalist, I would assume he's at a place where he was actually forced to specialize. Of course all this is caveated because maybe Cravath is lying about their rotations and they force you to specialize early.

[DanteAlighieri]

I really do want to echo the OP. Law is a great decision for some people but for most, jamming away on a dozen NDAs or reviewing some junior's work product at 3am just is not worth it. It's not the quantity of hours, its the quality of them and the complete lack of control at any level.

I grew up in the heartland on food stamps and law school was always a goal. Graduated high at a small undergrad and got a 1/2 scholly at a CCN. Hated corporate at one firm and I lateraled a little over a year ago to see if a new place made it better (and to a degree it did) but I am still at a V10 and it sounds weird to say but I am trapped. I have made it to 2nd or 3rd rounds with ibanks and consulting firms but I never had (or really have) the quant skills to blow anyone away and working 70hrs a week I don't really have the time to learn.

You hear stories like the OP's all the time and in a way I feel bad for complaining b/c I never had options out of UG. Law School vaulted me to a place financially I had never thought I would be and has provided me with some cool experiences (the first time your in a negotiation and a guy you read about in book or saw on CNBC is at the table you get a little ego boost...but that fades) but it has also ruined me b/c I think I can do more with this experience then I really can. [I am in NYC and SO is here.]

tl:dr A T14 can take you from poverty to 250k a year but the trade off is autonomy and mobility.

[PeanutsNJam]

OP what job would you have taken out of undergrad had you skipped out on law school?

[favabeansoup]

I have made it to 2nd or 3rd rounds with ibanks and consulting firms but I never had (or really have) the quant skills to blow anyone away and working 70hrs a week I don't really have the time to learn.

You hear stories like the OP's all the time and in a way I feel bad for complaining b/c I never had options out of UG. Law School vaulted me to a place financially I had never thought I would be and has provided me with some cool experiences (the first time your in a negotiation and a guy you read about in book or saw on CNBC is at the table you get a little ego boost...but that fades) but it has also ruined me b/c I think I can do more with this experience then I really can. [I am in NYC and SO is here.]

tl:dr A T14 can take you from poverty to 250k a year but the trade off is autonomy and mobility.

To echo a point with OP's post. Have you ever considered going in-house ? If not, is it because you simply want out of the law?

[2014]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

[DanteAlighieri]

I have made it to 2nd or 3rd rounds with ibanks and consulting firms but I never had (or really have) the quant skills to blow anyone away and working 70hrs a week I don't really have the time to learn.

You hear stories like the OP's all the time and in a way I feel bad for complaining b/c I never had options out of UG. Law School vaulted me to a place financially I had never thought I would be and has provided me with some cool experiences (the first time your in a negotiation and a guy you read about in book or saw on CNBC is at the table you get a little ego boost...but that fades) but it has also ruined me b/c I think I can do more with this experience then I really can. [I am in NYC and SO is here.]

tl:dr A T14 can take you from poverty to 250k a year but the trade off is autonomy and mobility.

To echo a point with OP's post. Have you ever considered going in-house ? If not, is it because you simply want out of the law?

I get calls (mid level associate) but most sound awful and - I have heard - are usually not easy to get. I am very much willing to trade money for autonomy and an ability to make a jump to the business side. Most jobs are "park the bus" roles reviewing commercial contracts at f500s or cya roles at financial institutions...neither seem to give you chances to grow/challenge you. I personally know of 2 people who have accepted in-house roles at my level that left me jealous (1) was at a large PE shop where they got to work with the deal team as an associate (not in a pure lawyer role) and (2) the other was with a pro sports team. [I am still lucky, just unhappy].

[zot1]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

How do you convince yourself to go T14 --> BigLaw? By believing that happiness in the field exists.

[DanteAlighieri]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

Some really enjoy it (more so litigators it seems) and some just are happy to have any job. It also seems the longer you do it, the harder it is to break free and the more you embrace it (sunk cost fallacy, learning your role in life, etc.). Look eventually I will have a wife and kids and I will just need to pump the breaks on the whole chasing dreams thing and be happy with a steady paycheck from any job that will have me...I am just not there yet.

[PMan99]

To OP or others in agreement - you must have peers who seem to/actually feel more happy with their careers than you do. What do you think makes them different than you?

There is a very specific type that thrives in biglaw. It is hard to put a finger on what exactly it is, though it involves not just drinking the kool aid but chugging it by the gallon.

[jbagelboy]

Whats a v3

Thats like the dumbest designation

[052220152]

What does the OP, and others who can relate, think about saying screw NY and going to a mid-market firm in a city like Portland or Denver, make around 110-130k, and have significantly less billable hours expected of you? It seems like such a better life to me, you can actually enjoy weekend breaks from work, and at least ease several of the negatives you mentioned.

Do those markets really expect significantly fewer billable hours?

speaking from experience they do expect significantly less billable hours. theres also barely any of those jobs. you cant just be like, fuck NYC, ill just do denver/portland--you often dont get the choice

[7a1]

I've been an M&A lawyer for 15 years. There are pluses:

- you get to work with executives in some of the most important moments of their careers
- you get to work with smart people
- you get to work on challenging problems (or at a minimum, be challenged by arduous tasks)
- the intensity of the work can give rise to strong relationships with clients and co-workers from having done battle together
- the practice is increasingly global
- there is less bureaucracy and time spent in meetings than I think in most corporate jobs
- there is less travel than consulting or banking, meaning that after the junior associate years it's possible to eat healthy and exercise
- given low overall economic growth, globalization and technological disruption, seems like there will be work to do for a while
- if you stick with it at the right firm, it's special to work alongside the same team of professional colleagues over the long-term

There are also many downsides, chief among them being the unpredictability of the work. It feels like working as an emergency first responder, prepared to drop everything at a moment's notice. That requires one's life to be re-configured around flexibility as the organizing principle. It's easy to look back and see different alternatives as superior, but the ideal alternative occupation changes over time -- perhaps investment banking fifteen years ago, PE ten years ago, tech startups last year, maybe computer programming/AI today. But as I look at my colleagues from college and law school today, I see a lot of difficulties encountered in other professions too. Overall I'm satisfied with my career.