Law Grads: Did you regret turning down an Ivy? Forum

[cdotson2]

is the Cornell offer still live? Didn't their deadline pass like 2 months ago?

[Barack O'Drama]

LMFAO

Anywhos, dude, you have to let go of the idea of "courses" at a certain school. If you want to work practicing entertaining law, the most important factor that will give you a good shot at this is a top school. It is a common ploy among lower-ranked schools to entice students like yourself in their doors and take their money, lulled in by entertainment law clinics and such. Screw all that. Anything you want will be more obtainable from Cornell. You haven't really said anything new when every poster has addressed your concerns and answered your questions.

Jen is right that clinics and externships matter a lot for PI and other fields. But, in your case, I can't imagine --with the exception of debt-- any other school you've discussed coming anywhere close to giving you the opportunities you'll get from C. I truly admire you being debt-averse, as I am myself, but it's not like you've got a free ride at Fordham which would merit this debate. You have a decent scholly at C, and a little bit of a better one at the other schools, but still man, you're going to regret it. And if it all works out for you if you choose otherwise, I will be happy for ya. But if you're this debt averse, be averse to paying all that money, albeit less, to a school where you might not have the opportunity. The extra money is worth it!

I don't think Cardozo is trying to "lull" me in order to get my money, since they are offering me a full, unconditional scholarship.

Alright man, you do you. You came for advice and yet have only argued against any and all sensible advice you've gotten. You didn't come to get advice, you came to get approval and acceptance of a decision you've already made. Good luck, op.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Lawyers who graduated, say, even 10 years ago graduated into a very different job market than the market that exists now. It's also absolutely true that you might end up with a great job out of Fordham or even Cardozo. But it's less likely - and keep in mind the people you're talking to have a kind of survivor's bias. The point isn't that there aren't any successful Cardozo grads - it's more, what are the people who are not those three people doing?

As for getting entertainment/IP law out of Cornell - entertainment law is very rare and not something anyone anywhere frequently gets as an entry level job out of law school. Also, if you're talking about Conde Nast, that would probably be categorized as in-house rather than entertainment law. Finally, lots of people will do IP out of Cornell, but in the context of big law. I guess I don't know what you mean by IP outside of the biglaw context.

[landshoes]

People from my class got summer internships with MLB, the NBA, and Marvel; we're not in NYC or LA...

Also Cardozo is playing you for a sucker. Introducing you to like the 3 successful people from there in the hope that they'll sway you with anecdotes and you'll ignore the stats...not cool.

[ronanOgara]

I got into Penn and went to a TTT in the same city. Having no debt is the best, but telling people you went to X school because it was free & that you really got into some some good schools but turned them down gets exhausting.

[ronanOgara]

I got into Penn and went to a TTT in the same city. Having no debt is the best, but telling people you went to X school because it was free & that you really got into some some good schools but turned them down gets exhausting.

I should also mention that I was only interested in a career in state-level criminal law when looking at school, not entertainment law.

[silverdoe91]

I got into Penn and went to a TTT in the same city. Having no debt is the best, but telling people you went to X school because it was free & that you really got into some some good schools but turned them down gets exhausting.

Yes, I can imagine! That's the dilemma I'm facing now...which outcome is harder to bear? Having to constantly defend yourself because of the law school you went to (and the better schools you turned down) or having to privately live with at least a decade of debt (depending on what kind of job you get.)

[silverdoe91]

People from my class got summer internships with MLB, the NBA, and Marvel; we're not in NYC or LA...

Also Cardozo is playing you for a sucker. Introducing you to like the 3 successful people from there in the hope that they'll sway you with anecdotes and you'll ignore the stats...not cool.

Which school do you go to and do they have an entertainment law program? Cornell barely appears to have any such program...I think they have like one course on it, and for all I know it may not even be offered when I'm there.

Why do you think Cardozo would want to "play me for a sucker?" Does my score really help them out that much? I know it's factored into their ranking, but I thought only the 75th percentile was reported and not the highest score accepted?

[silverdoe91]

is the Cornell offer still live? Didn't their deadline pass like 2 months ago?

Their first deposit was due 2 months ago, which I paid. I've delayed on my 2nd...

[ronanOgara]

I got into Penn and went to a TTT in the same city. Having no debt is the best, but telling people you went to X school because it was free & that you really got into some some good schools but turned them down gets exhausting.

Yes, I can imagine! That's the dilemma I'm facing now...which outcome is harder to bear? Having to constantly defend yourself because of the law school you went to (and the better schools you turned down) or having to privately live with at least a decade of debt (depending on what kind of job you get.)

It's a little more than that. Where you go to school has a direct impact on what job you can get. You have to examine whether the school you go to is best suited to get you your desired job/career. Luckily, I am working in a field in which where you went to school meant little in recruiting and hiring.

[silverdoe91]

I got into Penn and went to a TTT in the same city. Having no debt is the best, but telling people you went to X school because it was free & that you really got into some some good schools but turned them down gets exhausting.

Yes, I can imagine! That's the dilemma I'm facing now...which outcome is harder to bear? Having to constantly defend yourself because of the law school you went to (and the better schools you turned down) or having to privately live with at least a decade of debt (depending on what kind of job you get.)

It's a little more than that. Where you go to school has a direct impact on what job you can get. You have to examine whether the school you go to is best suited to get you your desired job/career. Luckily, I am working in a field in which where you went to school meant little in recruiting and hiring.

How did you know exactly what field you wanted to get into? For me, I would love to do policy work or civil rights but I would not mind doing regular Public Interest work which really does not care which school you go to, or trying out IP/Entertainment law. I feel like I'd need to do a lot of internships in one area to get a job in those fields though, which might be a problem for me since I don't have one set field in mind. I don't know if it would be worth it to take some more time off to explore other fields of law, because I might not get jobs where I can truly see what each field is like, plus I already took three years off.

[landshoes]

People from my class got summer internships with MLB, the NBA, and Marvel; we're not in NYC or LA...

Also Cardozo is playing you for a sucker. Introducing you to like the 3 successful people from there in the hope that they'll sway you with anecdotes and you'll ignore the stats...not cool.

Which school do you go to and do they have an entertainment law program? Cornell barely appears to have any such program...I think they have like one course on it, and for all I know it may not even be offered when I'm there.

Why do you think Cardozo would want to "play me for a sucker?" Does my score really help them out that much? I know it's factored into their ranking, but I thought only the 75th percentile was reported and not the highest score accepted?

UChi, and no, we have no subject-matter specific programs at all. We have clinics and things like that, of course, but no "___ law" programs. We have a great career services office, and going to a school with a good rep helps a lot.

That's why I think Cardozo is bullshitting you. No one thinks "oh I would hire that person, but they never took Entertainment Law." No one says "well, Cornell is a great school, but without an Entertainment Law program I will never hire from there." It just is not how legal hiring works, at all. It's not like college where you need to have a relevant major. At most, you would be taking things like Tax or taking cross-registered classes at the business school. Any decent school will give you that opportunity, and you don't have to be part of a special program to take advantage of those opportunities.

I think any school wants people above their 75th %ile LSAT and they want their yield to stay high.

[ronanOgara]

I got into Penn and went to a TTT in the same city. Having no debt is the best, but telling people you went to X school because it was free & that you really got into some some good schools but turned them down gets exhausting.

Yes, I can imagine! That's the dilemma I'm facing now...which outcome is harder to bear? Having to constantly defend yourself because of the law school you went to (and the better schools you turned down) or having to privately live with at least a decade of debt (depending on what kind of job you get.)

It's a little more than that. Where you go to school has a direct impact on what job you can get. You have to examine whether the school you go to is best suited to get you your desired job/career. Luckily, I am working in a field in which where you went to school meant little in recruiting and hiring.

How did you know exactly what field you wanted to get into? For me, I would love to do policy work or civil rights but I would not mind doing regular Public Interest work which really does not care which school you go to, or trying out IP/Entertainment law. I feel like I'd need to do a lot of internships in one area to get a job in those fields though, which might be a problem for me since I don't have one set field in mind. I don't know if it would be worth it to take some more time off to explore other fields of law, because I might not get jobs where I can truly see what each field is like, plus I already took three years off.

I worked in the field prior to school and loved it. Loved the direct interaction with people, being in the courtroom, etc.

If I wasn't so sure on criminal law I would've gone to Penn to keep my options open.

[silverdoe91]

People from my class got summer internships with MLB, the NBA, and Marvel; we're not in NYC or LA...

Also Cardozo is playing you for a sucker. Introducing you to like the 3 successful people from there in the hope that they'll sway you with anecdotes and you'll ignore the stats...not cool.

Which school do you go to and do they have an entertainment law program? Cornell barely appears to have any such program...I think they have like one course on it, and for all I know it may not even be offered when I'm there.

Why do you think Cardozo would want to "play me for a sucker?" Does my score really help them out that much? I know it's factored into their ranking, but I thought only the 75th percentile was reported and not the highest score accepted?

UChi, and no, we have no subject-matter specific programs at all. We have clinics and things like that, of course, but no "___ law" programs. We have a great career services office, and going to a school with a good rep helps a lot.

That's why I think Cardozo is bullshitting you. No one thinks "oh I would hire that person, but they never took Entertainment Law." No one says "well, Cornell is a great school, but without an Entertainment Law program I will never hire from there." It just is not how legal hiring works, at all. It's not like college where you need to have a relevant major. At most, you would be taking things like Tax or taking cross-registered classes at the business school. Any decent school will give you that opportunity, and you don't have to be part of a special program to take advantage of those opportunities.

I think any school wants people above their 75th %ile LSAT and they want their yield to stay high.

But why would they need someone over the 75th percentile if that is not reported?

I think employers in Entertainment/IP or PI law would want you to have not only relevant coursework, but more importantly relevant experience. Like I said, the attorneys I know who make contracts for Vogue and other world renowned magazines/companies, went to Cardozo/Brooklyn and just took lots of internships in entertainment law in NYC in order to hone their skills and have that experience (and connections) that will be necessary in the job they want.

[Nachoo2019]

Was the poll that turned out like 150-5 in favor of Cornell not enough for you? Pick Cardozo and stop shitting up this forum over it or take the advice you've been given. This could have been settled in the other 13+ page thread you started about this EXACT topic

[landshoes]

People from my class got summer internships with MLB, the NBA, and Marvel; we're not in NYC or LA...

Also Cardozo is playing you for a sucker. Introducing you to like the 3 successful people from there in the hope that they'll sway you with anecdotes and you'll ignore the stats...not cool.

Which school do you go to and do they have an entertainment law program? Cornell barely appears to have any such program...I think they have like one course on it, and for all I know it may not even be offered when I'm there.

Why do you think Cardozo would want to "play me for a sucker?" Does my score really help them out that much? I know it's factored into their ranking, but I thought only the 75th percentile was reported and not the highest score accepted?

UChi, and no, we have no subject-matter specific programs at all. We have clinics and things like that, of course, but no "___ law" programs. We have a great career services office, and going to a school with a good rep helps a lot.

That's why I think Cardozo is bullshitting you. No one thinks "oh I would hire that person, but they never took Entertainment Law." No one says "well, Cornell is a great school, but without an Entertainment Law program I will never hire from there." It just is not how legal hiring works, at all. It's not like college where you need to have a relevant major. At most, you would be taking things like Tax or taking cross-registered classes at the business school. Any decent school will give you that opportunity, and you don't have to be part of a special program to take advantage of those opportunities.

I think any school wants people above their 75th %ile LSAT and they want their yield to stay high.

But why would they need someone over the 75th percentile if that is not reported?

I think employers in Entertainment/IP or PI law would want you to have not only relevant coursework, but more importantly relevant experience. Like I said, the attorneys I know who make contracts for Vogue and other world renowned magazines/companies, went to Cardozo/Brooklyn and just took lots of internships in entertainment law in NYC in order to hone their skills and have that experience (and connections) that will be necessary in the job they want.

they are willing to train "good" people who don't have a lot of experience, and they think good people come from "good" schools. Law people are snobby as fuck.

You see people who went to Cardozo having to do a bunch of internships just to get their foot in the door, and you are thinking "oh everyone has to do it and Cardozo lets you do that!"

no. what you are seeing is people from those schools having to do a bunch of free/underpaid work, ON TOP of their law school education, ON TOP of passing the bar etc., just to get their foot in the door.

people from schools with better reputations literally get hired with three months of summer work experience, sometimes less. the evidence is showing the complete opposite of what you seem to think it's showing.

also what are you talking about with the 75th percentile thing? If your LSAT is high it could bring up their median or it could bring up their 75th percentile. or it could give them a little bit of insurance in case another 75th percentile+ person gets off the waitlist at another school. Your LSAT doesn't have to be RIGHT ON the 75th percentile and then after that they tell you to fuck off because your LSAT is too high.

EDIT TO ADD THIS DISCLAIMER TO MY ADVICE:

I don't disagree with the advice you're giving but I will say that we need to pump the brakes a bit on this. I don't have intimate knowledge of the entertainment world but I do know the sports industry well and this is not accurate in most cases. The sports industry is very competitive and very network driven. If you want in, you have to know someone or you have to work internships to get your foot in the door. There aren't a lot of jobs available.

It's really not an industry where prestige trumps experience/network. Going to a great school certainly will make getting internships easier but you're not going to typically get hired over a person who spent a lot of time interning for an organization because of the school on your resume.

[pancakes3]

bro. just go ruin your life already. nobody cares.

[silverdoe91]

But why would they need someone over the 75th percentile if that is not reported?

I think employers in Entertainment/IP or PI law would want you to have not only relevant coursework, but more importantly relevant experience. Like I said, the attorneys I know who make contracts for Vogue and other world renowned magazines/companies, went to Cardozo/Brooklyn and just took lots of internships in entertainment law in NYC in order to hone their skills and have that experience (and connections) that will be necessary in the job they want.

they are willing to train "good" people who don't have a lot of experience, and they think good people come from "good" schools. Law people are snobby as fuck.

You see people who went to Cardozo having to do a bunch of internships just to get their foot in the door, and you are thinking "oh everyone has to do it and Cardozo lets you do that!"

no. what you are seeing is people from those schools having to do a bunch of free/underpaid work, ON TOP of their law school education, ON TOP of passing the bar etc., just to get their foot in the door.

people from schools with better reputations literally get hired with three months of summer work experience, sometimes less. the evidence is showing the complete opposite of what you seem to think it's showing.

also what are you talking about with the 75th percentile thing? If your LSAT is high it could bring up their median or it could bring up their 75th percentile. or it could give them a little bit of insurance in case another 75th percentile+ person gets off the waitlist at another school. Your LSAT doesn't have to be RIGHT ON the 75th percentile and then after that they tell you to fuck off because your LSAT is too high.

I see. That is a good point. But in that case, why is it that Cornell people do not go into fields that are not BigLaw? I get that it may be self-selection because those tend to be the highest paying jobs, but many people seem to go into BigLaw in order to pay off their loans and then stay because there are no "exit strategies."

[A. Nony Mouse]

People go into biglaw to make money, because they're interested in the kind of work only available in biglaw, because they want the experience and training biglaw provides, and/or because they ultimately want to get a job for which having working in biglaw is usually a prerequisite (in house, some kinds of government work). Biglaw is an important stepping stone for many people (for instance, for going to work in-house at a large entertainment company).

And in any case if you'd look at the LST reports that were posted, more people from Cornell go into public services jobs than they do from Fordham. So why are you not asking why more people from Fordham don't go into public service jobs?

The thing is, if you really want to go to Fordham (or Cardozo), go to one of those schools. You've articulated reasons for doing so - less debt and being in the city during the school year so you can intern/make connections. If, for you, those things outweigh the improved employment prospects at Cornell, awesome. It's your life and your decision - no one can make the decision for you, and you're the one who will live with it, not anyone posting here. But don't keep asking people here to approve of that choice when people have already said numerous times why they disagree. That doesn't mean everyone here is magically correct about what the right choice is, but you have to be the one to make it. TLS isn't going to give you permission to go to Fordham/Cardozo. Your parents aren't going to give you permission. You have to give you permission.

[lavarman84]

no. what you are seeing is people from those schools having to do a bunch of free/underpaid work, ON TOP of their law school education, ON TOP of passing the bar etc., just to get their foot in the door.

people from schools with better reputations literally get hired with three months of summer work experience, sometimes less. the evidence is showing the complete opposite of what you seem to think it's showing.

I don't disagree with the advice you're giving but I will say that we need to pump the brakes a bit on this. I don't have intimate knowledge of the entertainment world but I do know the sports industry well and this is not accurate in most cases. The sports industry is very competitive and very network driven. If you want in, you have to know someone or you have to work internships to get your foot in the door. There aren't a lot of jobs available.

It's really not an industry where prestige trumps experience/network. Going to a great school certainly will make getting internships easier but you're not going to typically get hired over a person who spent a lot of time interning for an organization because of the school on your resume.

[Jordan Catalano]

You have clearly made up your mind. So, why the delay in depositing?

I gave in my deposit to Fordham on June 1st, but it is refundable (partially.) The next day, I got a call from Cardozo telling me they are willing to offer me a full ride. I was considering going for that, but I got a temp job soon after in order to pay off law school expenses. I don't know how long it will last, but I might want to stay there for a little longer than 2 months, so I am back to considering Fordham because they have night classes. Cornell keeps coming back into the picture literally because it's an Ivy and people say my job outcome is better. I always figured that as long as I'm not at the bottom 20% percent at Cardozo/Fordham I will be able to get a job. The type of job is clearly important, but Fordham has a pretty good rep with BigLaw in NYC and also getting PI fellowships and govt. honors positions. Cardozo keeps coming back into the picture because I wonder if going to school debt free would be a worthy trade off. So I haven't really made my mind up, lol...does it seem like I have?

Speaking of Fordham, I was watching a documentary on student loan debt and one law student profiled is from Fordham...made me think of this thread...Might be interesting to watch...

It's called "Default":
https://youtu.be/wvQR93C6n2E

[cavalier1138]

I still can't get over the fact that your only attorney contacts have been with people who Cardozo put you in touch with.

Did you even bother asking Cornell to put you in contact with working alumni? Or did you stop for a second to think about why literally none of the top schools in the country have specific "____ Law" programs?

[cdotson2]

I still can't get over the fact that your only attorney contacts have been with people who Cardozo put you in touch with.

Did you even bother asking Cornell to put you in contact with working alumni? Or did you stop for a second to think about why literally none of the top schools in the country have specific "____ Law" programs?

OP you have a biased sample. Please ask Cornell to put you in touch with attorneys in each of the areas you are interested. You will get better advice and a better understanding of the differences between the schools.

[landshoes]

no. what you are seeing is people from those schools having to do a bunch of free/underpaid work, ON TOP of their law school education, ON TOP of passing the bar etc., just to get their foot in the door.

people from schools with better reputations literally get hired with three months of summer work experience, sometimes less. the evidence is showing the complete opposite of what you seem to think it's showing.

I don't disagree with the advice you're giving but I will say that we need to pump the brakes a bit on this. I don't have intimate knowledge of the entertainment world but I do know the sports industry well and this is not accurate in most cases. The sports industry is very competitive and very network driven. If you want in, you have to know someone or you have to work internships to get your foot in the door. There aren't a lot of jobs available.

It's really not an industry where prestige trumps experience/network. Going to a great school certainly will make getting internships easier but you're not going to typically get hired over a person who spent a lot of time interning for an organization because of the school on your resume.

Fair enough, thank you for the correction! I appreciate it.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes, I agree that connections and experience are important for a lot of jobs, especially outside of biglaw. I just don't agree that somehow Cornell students are hamstring in getting experience and making connections. A lot of that is on the individual student anyway.