University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions Forum

[Renne Walker]

@ Renne Walker

Everyone has an agenda and LST clearly has an agenda to paint as bleak a picture as possible.

To me, your claim borders on incomprehensible, given the data linked below. I shall leave it at that and let KU applicants sort it out for themselves.

--LinkRemoved--

[jared6180]

@ bjseq We compile data by state, not city. And we certainly don't maintain data on city size. So I think that would be a tough answer to get for you. On our website we list the city and state for every full-time position our students have found in the past five years. You need to click on the link "Employers in Kansas & Missouri" and also "Employers in the U.S. and the World". That should give you a good sense of the types of cities our students end up in.

http://www.law.ku.edu/careerservices/employmentstats

Thank you. I was just attempting to gauge how many students end up in the big city atmosphere and how many had more rural practices. I know that some states, South Dakota being one, was paying graduates to be attorneys in rural towns so a service could be provided to those extremely rural areas.

Im not sure KU offers anything but the State of Kansas offers Rural incentives.
http://www.kansascommerce.com/index.aspx?NID=320

[bjsesq]

@ bjseq We compile data by state, not city. And we certainly don't maintain data on city size. So I think that would be a tough answer to get for you. On our website we list the city and state for every full-time position our students have found in the past five years. You need to click on the link "Employers in Kansas & Missouri" and also "Employers in the U.S. and the World". That should give you a good sense of the types of cities our students end up in.

http://www.law.ku.edu/careerservices/employmentstats

Thank you. I was just attempting to gauge how many students end up in the big city atmosphere and how many had more rural practices. I know that some states, South Dakota being one, was paying graduates to be attorneys in rural towns so a service could be provided to those extremely rural areas.

Im not sure KU offers anything but the State of Kansas offers Rural incentives.
http://www.kansascommerce.com/index.aspx?NID=320

That actually helps. Thanks, dude.

[jared6180]

@ Renne Walker

Everyone has an agenda and LST clearly has an agenda to paint as bleak a picture as possible.

To me, your claim borders on incomprehensible, given the data linked below. I shall leave it at that and let KU applicants sort it out for themselves.

--LinkRemoved--

Nothing personal but my feeling is that many TLSers simply walk to the beat of the TLS drum. Here are two facts that everyone must consider when choosing a school of law and when choosing a career. There are jobs outside of Big Law that require a JD. There are schools outside of the T14 that produce brilliant attorneys that choose NOT to go to BigLaw. Now go weigh the statistics for what is most important to YOU and execute a plan from there.

[taxman128]

Last year 67% of our students found full-time positions in JD required or JD preferred positions within nine months of graduation.

does this include unpaid "positions"? if not where are they shown in the employment statistics?

thanks

[jared6180]

Last year 67% of our students found full-time positions in JD required or JD preferred positions within nine months of graduation.

does this include unpaid "positions"? if not where are they shown in the employment statistics?

thanks

I will be applying to KU, and it is a local favorite, but I was a little surprised by this % myself. I can't see where they would all be paid positions, but I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time...

[JayhawkLaw]

Unpaid positions are not counted in employment stats. I think most schools would report 100% employment if that were the case.

[JCFindley]

Dean Freedman.

Thank you for opening this thread and creating a direct line for questions. Recognizing the importance of sites like this and acting on it shows very progressive thinking on your part and that of KU.

I am going to take just a few lines to do a little politicking for veterans.

First, a little background on myself. I have strong ties to KS and am retired from the Kansas Air National Guard. I am attending law school this fall and never even considered KU in my choice list. It is not that KU didn't have anything to offer but rather what the school offers veterans. More specifically it is what KU fails to offer veterans.

When using Post 911 GI Bill the VA will pay full in state tuition for any state school. That is great IF the vet is a Kansas resident. If the veteran is not a resident then he/she has to cover the difference between in state tuition and the out of state tuition. The VA has a program in place to make up that difference; the Yellow Ribbon Program. Schools choose to participate in the program and they choose how many students they allow in the program and the amount they will contribute. The way it works is the school offers X amount of money to Y number of students and the VA matches X amount for the number of students the school allows.

Kansas offers 25 students this program but it is 25 for the entire university system and not just the law school. That is a rather low number when you consider the number of people attending KU at large. One thing I have found interesting in my law school application cycle is that "red states" that are generally thought of as pro military tend to have very poor options when it comes to the VA Yellow Ribbon Program. If you would like to see exceptional examples of schools with vet friendly YRP take a look at Michigan or Cornell. Even Harvard allows fifty vets to participate in the law school alone.

I don't really have a question for you but wanted to plant a seed for the future. Military veterans NEED strong advocates when schools are making decisions about veteran's programs in general and specifically the YRP. If you are ever a part of these decisions please be a strong advocate for your veterans. It is not a one way street either as a strong veteran presence in your law school can and will add a completely different type of diversity to the school. They will likely help with the rankings especially in the post graduation employment category.

Best Regards

JC Findley,
(KANG Retired)

[jared6180]

As a veteran myself, I would like to thank JCFindley for his observation. I agree that 25 YRP spots for a school the size of Kansas is almost like saying we will do it because we have to, however we really have no desire to help veterans as a group. The Undergrad programs at KU make up the VAST majority of total attendees. It would be much better for the veterans who qualify for the YRP to have a proportional representation based on TOTAL previous academic year enrollment, across the board, say 15% of UG attendance, and 15% of Law attendance, 15% of Med attendance. The other option would be to have a fixed number for each undergrad and graduate program. 100 for undergrad, 25 law, 25 med school, 5 MPA, and so forth based on a larger TOTAL number of YRP slots, that is again based on attendance. I suppose my proposition would be most beneficial to the university as a whole, and not in direct favor of the law school, any of these would be more beneficial to the veterans that have helped keep foreign radicals at bay.

In a way its odd, KU offers YRP to some vets, and we are being critical. But if you offered it to none we would still be critical, and if you offered it to all there is yet another crowd who would be critical.

[JayhawkLaw]

@ jared & jc

Thank you for your service to our country. The Law School and the University support our veterans and our armed forces in a number of substantive ways. Here in the law school admissions office, we view military service quite favorably when evaluating candidates. Our Professor Raj Bhala teaches a course in Sharia Law to Special Forces officers attending the Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth (http://www.army.mil/article/66414/KU_pr ... aw_at_CGSC).

The University takes the lead role in providing services to veterans and the armed services (http://www.veterans.ku.edu). For example, the Unversity maintains an Office of Professional Military Graduate Education to assist the U.S. Armed Forces education goals (http://www.opmge.ku.edu). The University's Army Wounded Warrior Education Initiative, a unique program for wounded soldiers, admits wounded veterans into graduate programs which will prepare them to continue in their army careers. Our University General Counsel Col. James Portoff served as Deputy Staff Judge Advocate at West Point. So we are big supporters of our veterans.

This support has not gone unnoticed as evidenced by our Top 10 "Best for Vets" ranking by the Military Times and repeated recognition as "Military Friendly" by the Military Advanced Education magazine (http://www.news.ku.edu/2010/december/1/ ... ndly.shtml).

Regarding the Yellow Ribbon Program, I would love to have more slots available for law students. The Board of Regents makes that decision and I encourage you to contact them to let them know of your interest in the program.

[JCFindley]

@ jared & jc

Thank you for your service to our country. The Law School and the University support our veterans and our armed forces in a number of substantive ways. Here in the law school admissions office, we view military service quite favorably when evaluating candidates. Our Professor Raj Bhala teaches a course in Sharia Law to Special Forces officers attending the Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth (http://www.army.mil/article/66414/KU_pr ... aw_at_CGSC).

The University takes the lead role in providing services to veterans and the armed services (http://www.veterans.ku.edu). For example, the Unversity maintains an Office of Professional Military Graduate Education to assist the U.S. Armed Forces education goals (http://www.opmge.ku.edu). The University's Army Wounded Warrior Education Initiative, a unique program for wounded soldiers, admits wounded veterans into graduate programs which will prepare them to continue in their army careers. Our University General Counsel Col. James Portoff served as Deputy Staff Judge Advocate at West Point. So we are big supporters of our veterans.

This support has not gone unnoticed as evidenced by our Top 10 "Best for Vets" ranking by the Military Times and repeated recognition as "Military Friendly" by the Military Advanced Education magazine (http://www.news.ku.edu/2010/december/1/ ... ndly.shtml).

Regarding the Yellow Ribbon Program, I would love to have more slots available for law students. The Board of Regents makes that decision and I encourage you to contact them to let them know of your interest in the program.

Thank you for the response and thank you to the school for its support.

My ship has sailed as far as attending KU but I will send a letter to the Board. (I am nothing more than a citizen advocate at this point.)

JC Findley

[mwhitley]

I was born and raised in Kansas (as were the last five generations of my family). It goes without saying that I am a Jayhawk through-and-through. However, my life experiences have made me vastly different than my many Kansan ancestors. I am gay, and growing up in a Kansas molded by Fred Phelps has been incredibly difficult. My passion for justice and equality is parallel in strength solely to my thirst for education.

I would love to have the opportunity to both follow my educational aspirations and live and study in the state that I call home. Largely due to the immense discrimination I have experienced as a homosexual in the Midwest, I am terrified to come-out in my application. It is a significant factor in what makes me who I am and gives me the perspective I have on political philosophy and the justice system. I want to be open about my identity but worry that my orientation could overshadow my strong academic standing and passion.

Is it possible that in coming-out I could be forfeiting scholarship opportunity or even acceptance?

Sincerely,

Madison

[jared6180]

While it may not be an identical situation look at this report. --LinkRemoved--

I don't think coming out on your application will be much of a factor either way. True this may not directly address your specific concern, however it should provide you with some reassurance as it is recognition of the larger GLTG community.

[jtc2012]

I was born and raised in Kansas (as were the last five generations of my family). It goes without saying that I am a Jayhawk through-and-through. However, my life experiences have made me vastly different than my many Kansan ancestors. I am gay, and growing up in a Kansas molded by Fred Phelps has been incredibly difficult. My passion for justice and equality is parallel in strength solely to my thirst for education.

I would love to have the opportunity to both follow my educational aspirations and live and study in the state that I call home. Largely due to the immense discrimination I have experienced as a homosexual in the Midwest, I am terrified to come-out in my application. It is a significant factor in what makes me who I am and gives me the perspective I have on political philosophy and the justice system. I want to be open about my identity but worry that my orientation could overshadow my strong academic standing and passion.

Is it possible that in coming-out I could be forfeiting scholarship opportunity or even acceptance?

Sincerely,

Madison

Madison,

I am a rising 1L at the University of Minnesota Law School and attended The University of Kansas as an undergraduate. KU Law was one of the places to which I applied.

Generally, in NO WAY does coming out on your application negatively impact an offer for admission or scholarships. In fact, it's quite the opposite. If your experience as a non-heterosexual has been a source of motivation for you to excel academically and be active on campus and in your community, you can bet that at least some law schools are going to look at you as a fantastic candidate. As you start the application process, you'll even find that A LOT of law schools make it known that they want very diverse student bodies, and that certainly includes LGBTs. Several schools I applied to asked about my sexual orientation and/or gender identity. It made me feel very welcome to apply.

That said, if being LGBT played little role in your motivation for wanting to attend law school or excelling prior to law school, there would not be much point in writing about that in your personal statement. But, seriously, do not hide something like this if it is important to you; it could actually COST you a scholarship/admission offer by not letting it be known.

If you are passionate about gender, sexuality and the law, my advice would be to do your research on various law schools to see what types of courses, clinics, groups, etc. they offer and discuss them in your application. You'd be amazed.

Here are my recommendations:

Yale Law School (LGBT Litigation Clinic, tons of LGBT-related courses)
Harvard Law School (LGBT Law Clinic and incredibly active LGBT student group, Lambda)
Columbia Law School (Sexuality & Gender Law Clinic)
University of Chicago (offers the Stonewall Scholarship for those who want to advance LGBT legal rights)
University of California, Berkeley, School of Law
University of California, Los Angeles, School of Law (UCLA School of law houses The Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy, a prestigious and high volume research institute)
University of Minnesota Law School (Professor Dale Carpenter is an authority on sexual orientation & the law, perhaps the best school if you want to be an LGBT rights litigator)
Emory University School of Law (They house the Feminist Legal Theory Project, a very active research center)
University of Washington School of Law
Tulane University Law School (offers the only law journal exclusively dedicated to law and sexuality, JOURNAL OF LAW AND SEXUALITY)
Northeastern University School of Law (Probably the most liberal law school on the planet. You will not feel "different" there).


Some of the "gay" cities include: Minneapolis-St. Paul, Atlanta, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York City, Cambridge, Seattle, and Boston. The schools there certainly reflect that.

Remember that admissions committees are comprised of people with their own biases. Some law schools MIGHT care, but I doubt you will find many (good) law schools who wouldn't love a good LGBT applicant.

The Law School Admissions Council publishes survey results of gay friendly schools, based on whether they have such things as LGBT law student groups, LGBT faculty/administration, and LGBT-related courses (http://www.lsac.org/jd/diversity/lgbt-chart.asp). Some places I thought to be, not hostile, but perhaps not the MOST accepting were University of Oklahoma College of Law and Notre Dame Law School, of the ones I looked at. There are also a handful of conservative law schools known for being conservative (For example, Brigham Young). You may not find LGBT student groups/faculty/courses at these schools.

If you want to attend a law school where you will be accepted by the law school community, I will say that hiding who you are in an application is probably the wrong way to go. Do you really want to be somewhere where you have to hide a major part of your identity? That's three years of your life in an intense program where you will build life-long relationships with your classmates and professors; you will want to feel as comfortable in your environment as possible. Furthermore, when you deliberately hide your identity, that is unethical because it's like lying.

Now, you want to attend a school in Kansas, right? While KU Law does not offer much in terms of LGBT-related courses, it is an excellent law school. I have met Dean Freedman and Dean Mazza personally, and I can tell you that they probably do not care too much about your sexuality. They want promising students with good credentials who will be active in law school.

Be honest, and you will love the outcome. Best of luck to you!

- James

[JayhawkLaw]

Madison,

Sometimes I go a few days without checking TLS, so please forgive me for not seeing your post until now.

Please let me reassure you that KU Law is a welcoming, inclusive institution and we encourage students of all different backgrounds to apply to KU Law. We believe a strong community contains many different voices and actively seek out students from the LGBT community to join us. Supporting the LGBT community matches the history and values of KU and KU Law. Since its founding by abolitionists in 1878, KU Law has been admitting students without regard to race, gender or ethnicity. We are particularly proud of the fact that we admitted women nearly 75 years before Harvard.

Also keep in mind that Lawrence is a very progressive city with a sizable LGBT population. Combined with the many student organizations at KU, you will find it easy to make a home here. The law school has its own LGBT student club, Outlaws & Allies, which serves as both a social organization and an advocacy group.

In the next couple of days, I hope to have our Associate Dean for Academic Affairs Melanie Wilson and perhaps one or two LGBT students respond to your posting with encouraging words. Stay tuned, I think they will reassure you that KU Law and Lawrence are great places for LGBT students.

Steve

[taxman128]

Unpaid positions are not counted in employment stats.

so where are these positions shown in the employment statistics and the salary surveys?

thanks

[taxman128]

KU...is a welcoming, inclusive institution...

"Also, before every game, the entire team prays together and repeats the Lord’s Prayer, a tradition at KU. Moreover, they get together to pray when other challenges arise. With all of them focused on Jesus, they will grow both individually and as a team."

http://jesusnsports.wordpress.com/2012/ ... d-in-hand/

[lawguyjake]

I was born and raised in Kansas (as were the last five generations of my family). It goes without saying that I am a Jayhawk through-and-through. However, my life experiences have made me vastly different than my many Kansan ancestors. I am gay, and growing up in a Kansas molded by Fred Phelps has been incredibly difficult. My passion for justice and equality is parallel in strength solely to my thirst for education.

I would love to have the opportunity to both follow my educational aspirations and live and study in the state that I call home. Largely due to the immense discrimination I have experienced as a homosexual in the Midwest, I am terrified to come-out in my application. It is a significant factor in what makes me who I am and gives me the perspective I have on political philosophy and the justice system. I want to be open about my identity but worry that my orientation could overshadow my strong academic standing and passion.

Is it possible that in coming-out I could be forfeiting scholarship opportunity or even acceptance?

Sincerely,
Madison

Madison,

Rising KU Law 1L here. My entire personal statement focused on my experience as a gay person in Kansas and how those experiences led me to study law. I might be able to add some perspective to this discussion. My apologies for the lack of brevity.

I will try and let Dean Freedman’s and James’s advice stand on their own; they are both pretty spot on.

I think you are asking a few different questions here. The first is “How will being out affect my application?” The answer to that question, I think, depends largely on how you choose to frame your sexual orientation inside the application itself. Let me start by saying that your sexual orientation will be at very worst a nonissue for almost all law schools. For example, if you were to casually mention your sexual orientation somewhere in your personal statement, it certainly will not become the most important part of your application (and likely not even the most important part of that particular sentence), neither will it likely help your application.

With that being said, if being a member of the LGBT community is a major reason for your application to law school, then I think it could be very beneficial to talk about. The degree to which being out on your application will help you stand out as an applicant probably depends on your own connection to the LGBT community and LGBT issues. Have you been involved in any campaigns/fundraiser/organizations/protests/etc. that lend themselves to your decision to attend law school? If so, then I think there are perfectly reasonable grounds to spend as much time as you like discussing them. It’s all about context.

The second question you are asking is “Should I come out on my application?” The answer to this question depends entirely on you. If being an LGBT person has affected you in substantive ways or drives you to study the law AND you feel comfortable claiming your orientation to Admissions Committees, then by all means go for it and reap the benefits of having an authentic and courageous story. If you choose not to talk about it in your applications and focus on something else that matters to you, then that is fine, too. Not talking about your sexual orientation in an application is most certainly not a lie and certainly isn’t unethical. It’s just something you chose not to talk about.

The third question that you should be asking is “Can I happily be an LGBT person here?” And here is my KU Law plug. I can’t speak for other areas, but let me tell you that both Lawrence and Kansas City are very gay-friendly. KU has 20,000+ students; there are gay people there. And while there are certainly some cities with higher proportions of LGBT folk than others, that in no way means that those are the only places where LGBT people exist and are happy – just come to my Starbucks in KC; I see plenty every day.

I was offered a very substantial scholarship to UC Davis and a full ride to Hofstra – both of which are in progressive, metropolitan areas – and still chose KU, with credit going to KU Admissions and Career Services. This was not a financial decision, but rather a personal one. Like you, I was interested in advancing LGBT rights in Kansas, and that formed the crux of my personal statement. Could have I come back to Kansas after getting my degree from a school in California or New York? Sure. But Dean Freedman and Assistant Dean Anderson recruited me harder than any other school and were acutely interested in what I could bring to the KU Law classroom as an LGBT applicant. Moreover, KU offers a scholarship that is specific to LGBT students that is given by the Kansas City LEsbian, Gay, and Allied Lawyers ("KC LEGAL") organization. And while I think KU Admissions went above and beyond for me and that KU Law will provide me with an exceptionally inclusive and supportive environment, I believe they are one of many, many law schools that would gladly reach out to and encourage applications from openly gay students.

If you have more questions or would like to talk to me personally about my personal statement or about law school admissions in general, please feel free to send me a personal message. I’d even be happy to chat with you on the phone, if you like.

Best of luck to you. Maybe I’ll see you in Green Hall sometime soon.

-Jake

[pertristis]

KU...is a welcoming, inclusive institution...

"Also, before every game, the entire team prays together and repeats the Lord’s Prayer, a tradition at KU. Moreover, they get together to pray when other challenges arise. With all of them focused on Jesus, they will grow both individually and as a team."

http://jesusnsports.wordpress.com/2012/ ... d-in-hand/

Wait, what? I'm not sure how a single athletic team deciding it wants to pray before games affects that statement that you quoted. I can't speak of the law school, but I am confident in saying that KU as a whole is more welcoming and inclusive place.

Signed,
(non-religious KU alumnus)

[Sauer Grapes]

...growing up in a Kansas molded by Fred Phelps has been incredibly difficult.

Madison, I wish you the best of luck in your law studies but this one line bothered me. While I have no love lost for the state of KS or their university, to say KS has been "molded" by Fred Phelps is disingenuous. No one in KS gives the Phelps family or their church the time of day and everyone thinks that they are wackos.

[lawguyjake]

I was born and raised in Kansas (as were the last five generations of my family). It goes without saying that I am a Jayhawk through-and-through. However, my life experiences have made me vastly different than my many Kansan ancestors. I am gay, and growing up in a Kansas molded by Fred Phelps has been incredibly difficult. My passion for justice and equality is parallel in strength solely to my thirst for education.

I would love to have the opportunity to both follow my educational aspirations and live and study in the state that I call home. Largely due to the immense discrimination I have experienced as a homosexual in the Midwest, I am terrified to come-out in my application. It is a significant factor in what makes me who I am and gives me the perspective I have on political philosophy and the justice system. I want to be open about my identity but worry that my orientation could overshadow my strong academic standing and passion.

Is it possible that in coming-out I could be forfeiting scholarship opportunity or even acceptance?

Sincerely,
Madison

Madison,

Here are just a few links that I found in about 10 seconds through google. It should also be noted that KU just created a Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies PhD program (one of only a handful in the nation). Pretty slick if you ask me. Finally, I don't think that the LSAC Law School LGBT Survey is 100% updated in regards to KU Law. There is at least one LGBT faculty member on staff, and while there aren't any courses with "LGBT" expressly stated in the course title, there are a decent handful of classes in which LGBT issues will surely show up. Anyhow, peruse these links at your leisure.

Being LGBT At KU - From the LGBT Resource Center
http://www.silc.ku.edu/lgbt/Pdf%20Docum ... TFAQ's.pdf

KU WGSS Program
http://www.womenandgender.ku.edu/gradua ... ndex.shtml

Campus Pride LGBT Climate Index for KU (Note that LGBT persons have recently been included in anti-discrimination, so the score will be even higher next year)
http://www.campusclimateindex.org/detai ... spx?ID=347

And finally, my personal favorite: Douglas County extends employment benefits to same-sex county employees - the first county in Kansas to do so. Pretty stinking impressive if you ask me. Mike Gaughan is an awesome guy.
--LinkRemoved--

I am clearly biased, but I definitely think that Lawrence is a great place to live and KU Law is an incredible value, especially for Kansas residents.

I'll stop inundating the thread, I promise!

-Jake

[JayhawkLaw]

Dear Madison,

I’m a professor and also the associate dean for academic affairs here at the law school. I teach criminal law, criminal procedure, evidence and the art of advocacy. Like you, I’m dedicated to justice and equality and, like you, I’m gay. I moved here from Atlanta, Georgia five years ago. Because Atlanta is a progressive city with a thriving LGBT community, I had reservations about moving to Kansas. But, I shouldn’t have. I have found both Lawrence and the law school to be a warm and welcoming place. My partner and I have hosted colleagues and neighbors in our home and attended many KU law student functions without the slightest hint of discrimination. I think you will find the law school to be an intellectually engaging environment in which you can be who you are. Diversity of all kinds is not only welcome but encouraged.

Melanie D. Wilson
Professor of Law and
Associate Dean for Academic Affairs
The University of Kansas

[JayhawkLaw]

@ taxman

re citation to article about Christian KU basketball player - KU and KU Law welcome folks from all walks of life. Just on the edge of campus, the Chabad House and the Islamic Center are across the street from each other. We have a strong Mormon community. We have students who are Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists and all other religious beliefs. We have straight and gay students, Jayhawk and Wildcat fanatics, young and old students. We pride ourselves on the fact that our doors have always been open to all and that our community is not only tolerant of diversity, but thrives on it.

re unpaid employment and employment statistics - Not sure how to make this much clearer, but we do not count unpaid positiions in our employment statistics. Whether we classified such a student as unemployed or not seeking work would depend on the student's response to our survey. If they told us they were seeking work, but could only find unpaid work, they would be counted as unemployed. I asked our Career Services Office if we had any such students this year and they said they could not recall such a student.

Hope this clears up the confusion.

[taxman128]

...they [unpaid interns] would be counted as unemployed. I asked our Career Services Office if we had any such students this year and they said they could not recall such a student....

thanks very much for clarification.

Zach Roberson and Carlos Hernandez indicate in the ku law blog that they will work for free.

http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/

[taxman128]

We have students who are... Muslims, Jews, atheists and all other religious beliefs. We have...gay students....

would they feel welcome on the basketball team?

"Assistant coach Ronnie Chalmers...and others praised [Jayhawks coach Bill] Self not for his bold, verbal witness, but for setting a moral and Christian standard for the team."

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=27779