Berkeley Students (Boalties) Taking Questions Forum

[Rotor]

Also, do you have to stay in Cali for the summer if you want to maintain residency?

EDIT: And one more question! I am going to make a final visit to the school on Monday. I know classes are almost over, but oh well. I am planning on sitting in on three or four classes; any recommendations? Is Liu actually still teaching his Con Law class, or has he been in D.C. for the hearings?

It's not REQUIRED, but it will make it more difficult to prove your intent to stay in CA (the legal requirement set by Sacramento). Now, if you're from FL and you go to NY for an excellent opportunity, it may not count against you. But if you go home to FL, you'll have a hard time I think.

Did you call the Admissions Office? They've been running admits through classes with 1L hosts. If not, I don't think you'll have a problem. Liu is out of town M and T.

Edit to remove some possibly improvident details.

[worldtraveler]

I've got a couple of questions:

1. I am interested in trying to get a competitive fed gov internship in DC for my 1L summer (e.g., an internship with DOJ). Do you know Berkeley students who have done this or are going to do this? Will the law school faculty and staff help you in landing such internships?

2. Is the student body ideologically diverse? I lean left, but I really enjoy a variety of viewpoints, including conservative and libertarian ones. Are non-liberal viewpoints treated with respect?

I know a couple 1Ls going to the DOJ this summer. As far as I know they applied and set everything up themselves. I wouldn't count on much faculty or staff assistance for any job, and that just goes for law school in general. You can look up the requirements now about DOJ opportunities and then make sure you have your apps ready to go early.

[Formerbruin]

Re: Getting in-state residency while spending 1L summer outside CA

It seems to help if you can show a lot of rejections from CA jobs.

[black celebration]

You guys are so great. Thank you thank you thank you. I have more inquiries; thanks in advance to anyone with enough patience to continue to help out!

1) I would already have CA residency by my 1L summer. Will this make it even easier to leave for the summer and maintain residency -- if they know that I already lived in California before applying to Boalt and that I therefore intend to stay + work here afterward? Also, I am hoping/wondering if international opportunities would be different (i.e., working in The Netherlands for a summer is less of a thread to my CA residency than working in NYC or DC)? I think I would only leave California for the summer if it was for another country.

2) On that note, can anyone speak to the abundance of 1L summer international externship opportunities? This was a strong point of Michigan; I talked with their Dean of Int'l Affairs and she told me about all of the great options I would have for summer work abroad. I get the impression that this sort of thing is not as common at Boalt...but I hope I am wrong!

3) How easy is it to get an "Edley Grant" for your 1L summer? Does it have to be specifically for non-profit/gov't work, or does it just have to be unpaid? The school makes it sound like it's easy, but I'd like to hear from students how competitive this process really is.

4) Have any of you worked in clinics? What is the general "word on the street" about the quality of the clinics? I am especially interested in the Death Penalty and International Human Rights Clinics -- but I have yet to encounter students involved in either. This is another factor pulling me towards Michigan -- they offer more clinics, and in some more specialized areas of interest to me.

5) Clerkships. I hear the grading system makes it harder to obtain clerkships. Jockeying for a federal clerkship is one thing I know for sure I want to do after law school, and I am bummed that Michigan (I think) does better than Boalt in this regard. How competitive is this process? Do lots of students go for it? If clerking depends less on class/rank, what do Boalt students tend to do in order to distinguish themselves otherwise?

6) Is it super hard to get onto the primary law journal? And are grades a factor, or is it only via a write-on?

[Dignan]

5) Clerkships. I hear the grading system makes it harder to obtain clerkships. Jockeying for a federal clerkship is one thing I know for sure I want to do after law school, and I am bummed that Michigan (I think) does better than Boalt in this regard. How competitive is this process? Do lots of students go for it? If clerking depends less on class/rank, what do Boalt students tend to do in order to distinguish themselves otherwise?

I am a Boalt 0L, but I asked about clerkships at the ASD and got some interesting answers. If any of what follows is off-base, I hope that current Boalties will correct me.

In response to concerns about class rank, grades, and clerkships, the administration is now ranking students. They assign numeric values to different grades (HH= 5, H = 3, P = 2), which allows them to create a GPA and assign a class rank. As I understand the policy, students may only disclose this rank when applying for clerkships. For firm jobs and most types of PI, the class rank may not be shared.

By the way, I would caution against putting much weight on Michigan's slight edge in federal COA clerkship placement. It's true that, in most years, Michigan places a slightly higher percentage of its class into COA clerkships. But the difference is usually small. With the class of 2009, for example, Michigan placed 4.5% of its class in COA clerkships, while Berkeley placed 3.9%. We're basically talking about statistical noise here.

If you were considering HYS (all three typically place 10-15% of each class into COA clerkships), then the difference would be meaningful. But Berkeley versus Michigan? I don't think it's worth worrying about.

[Tangerine Gleam]

In response to concerns about class rank, grades, and clerkships, the administration is now ranking students. They assign numeric values to different grades (HH= 5, H = 3, P = 2), which allows them to create a GPA and assign a class rank.

Wow, that's interesting. A "high honors" is worth as much as 2.5 passes. I can see how things might still be competitive for those who want to make it so. And that's kinda cool -- because even though I like the idea of no-grade stress abatement, I also like the idea that those who excel still have a way to distinguish themselves without making the others look like poor students in comparison.

[Formerbruin]

I am a Boalt 0L, but I asked about clerkships at the ASD and got some interesting answers. If any of what follows is off-base, I hope that current Boalties will correct me.

In response to concerns about class rank, grades, and clerkships, the administration is now ranking students. They assign numeric values to different grades (HH= 5, H = 3, P = 2), which allows them to create a GPA and assign a class rank. As I understand the policy, students may only disclose this rank when applying for clerkships. For firm jobs and most types of PI, the class rank may not be shared.

By the way, I would caution against putting much weight on Michigan's slight edge in federal COA clerkship placement. It's true that, in most years, Michigan places a slightly higher percentage of its class into COA clerkships. But the difference is usually small. With the class of 2009, for example, Michigan placed 4.5% of its class in COA clerkships, while Berkeley placed 3.9%. We're basically talking about statistical noise here.

If you were considering HYS (all three typically place 10-15% of each class into COA clerkships), then the difference would be meaningful. But Berkeley versus Michigan? I don't think it's worth worrying about.

That's true for the class of 2010 and mostly true for the later classes, but there's been a slight change this year for the class of 2012 and beyond. There will no longer be a formal "ranking," but instead awards you can get for being in the top, I think, 25% and 10% of the class when applying for clerkships/academia. This is very similar to the system used at Columbia.

The interesting incentive the 5-3-2 system creates is that it means it's better to get an HH and a P than two Hs. Also, just for reference, median is about 2.7 and top 10% is somewhere around 3.5--i.e. you can get half HH and half P and be in or close to the top 10%.

[emilybeth]

3) How easy is it to get an "Edley Grant" for your 1L summer? Does it have to be specifically for non-profit/gov't work, or does it just have to be unpaid? The school makes it sound like it's easy, but I'd like to hear from students how competitive this process really is.

3) The process is non-competitive, which means that as long as you meet the qualifications, you'll receive a grant. This year, the school required that qualifying employment be for a 501(c)(3) or governmental agency (law-related work supervised by an attorney), the duration of the employment be at least ten weeks, and the student not be receiving compensation which would push the overall amount of summer funding above $5000. There are also several options as far as multiple sources of funding: for example, if I were receiving $2000 from an outside grant, and wished also to use Edley grant funds, I could supplement that $2000 with up to $3000 from an Edley grant, and "bank" the last $1000 (of my $4000 Edley allotment) for my 2L summer. 2L students who wish to use an Edley grant for a second summer are eligible for an additional $2000 in funding, which they can add to any banked funds from their 1L summer and any funding from outside sources, so long as the total summer funding does not go above $6000.

I think. Double-check that before you rely on it, but I'm fairly sure it's accurate.


Edited to cite the source: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/1220.htm


Edited AGAIN because I forgot the most important part. In order to receive an Edley grant you must have completed 25 hours of pro bono work during 1L. It's not hard to do and as long as you're mindful of the requirement and plan ahead, you won't have a problem with this.

[Formerbruin]

In response to concerns about class rank, grades, and clerkships, the administration is now ranking students. They assign numeric values to different grades (HH= 5, H = 3, P = 2), which allows them to create a GPA and assign a class rank.

Wow, that's interesting. A "high honors" is worth as much as 2.5 passes. I can see how things might still be competitive for those who want to make it so. And that's kinda cool -- because even though I like the idea of no-grade stress abatement, I also like the idea that those who excel still have a way to distinguish themselves without making the others look like poor students in comparison.

I hate to be debbie downer, but this doesn't really exist. You still need good grades for the top firms and whatever. The system is also rough on those who finish around median - no way to distinguish yourself from those who are lower. There is no way for an employer to know if you were at 59% or 0%.

You're right that employers won't know if you finish around median in a particular class. Just to clarify, they will know, though, if you're around median overall.

Interestingly enough, you can finish at the median in every class, and still be in the bottom overall. Or you can finish top 40% in half your classes and bottom 10% in the others, and be close to the median overall.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Happy to be officially in the Boalt Boat!

A question: on how many days of the week can I expect to have 1L classes? Is it common for classes to be held on Friday? I have to go to a wedding the first weekend after classes start, and I'm not sure whether or not to assume that I'll have to stick around for Friday class my first semester.

And, for that matter, when do we get our class schedule? I'm excited!

[bilbobaggins]

You can expect to have class every day, but you might get lucky and have Fridays off.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Cool, thanks. I guess I will make my plans just assuming that I have class on Friday. Do you remember around when you received your schedule? Is it over the summer, or right before school starts? I'm wondering if I can afford to wait to buy my plane ticket or if I should just take the plunge now.

[Rotor]

Cool, thanks. I guess I will make my plans just assuming that I have class on Friday. Do you remember around when you received your schedule? Is it over the summer, or right before school starts? I'm wondering if I can afford to wait to buy my plane ticket or if I should just take the plunge now.

When the 1L classes post, you can figure when 1L classes are in general, but you won't know to which Mod you get assigned until orientation when you get your actual schedule.

That said, most of the profs are pretty cool about missing a class here and there. If you do have Friday classes (likely) just talk with the prof(s) and explain the situation. Shouldn't be a big issue.

[sirchristaylor]

Cool, thanks. I guess I will make my plans just assuming that I have class on Friday. Do you remember around when you received your schedule? Is it over the summer, or right before school starts? I'm wondering if I can afford to wait to buy my plane ticket or if I should just take the plunge now.

When the 1L classes post, you can figure when 1L classes are in general, but you won't know to which Mod you get assigned until orientation when you get your actual schedule.

That said, most of the profs are pretty cool about missing a class here and there. If you do have Friday classes (likely) just talk with the prof(s) and explain the situation. Shouldn't be a big issue.

I received a welcome email on 4/20 from Dean Tom that mentioned: "You will be assigned by the Admissions Office to one of nine class schedule modules. We will attempt to accommodate only students who have childcare and medical needs by assigning them to modules with early release times. We cannot guarantee that all module schedules will be amenable as they change from year to year. Please send your special requests before June 30 to admits@law.berkeley.edu."

[worldtraveler]

Cool, thanks. I guess I will make my plans just assuming that I have class on Friday. Do you remember around when you received your schedule? Is it over the summer, or right before school starts? I'm wondering if I can afford to wait to buy my plane ticket or if I should just take the plunge now.

When the 1L classes post, you can figure when 1L classes are in general, but you won't know to which Mod you get assigned until orientation when you get your actual schedule.

That said, most of the profs are pretty cool about missing a class here and there. If you do have Friday classes (likely) just talk with the prof(s) and explain the situation. Shouldn't be a big issue.

I received a welcome email on 4/20 from Dean Tom that mentioned: "You will be assigned by the Admissions Office to one of nine class schedule modules. We will attempt to accommodate only students who have childcare and medical needs by assigning them to modules with early release times. We cannot guarantee that all module schedules will be amenable as they change from year to year. Please send your special requests before June 30 to admits@law.berkeley.edu."

You get your schedule at orientation. For anyone who is worried about missing one class, it's really not a big deal. It's very likely you would only have classes on Friday morning anyway. If it's LRW that you'll miss, your instructor likely teaches 2 sections of it and so you can arrange to go on a different day.

You guys are so great. Thank you thank you thank you. I have more inquiries; thanks in advance to anyone with enough patience to continue to help out!

1) I would already have CA residency by my 1L summer. Will this make it even easier to leave for the summer and maintain residency -- if they know that I already lived in California before applying to Boalt and that I therefore intend to stay + work here afterward? Also, I am hoping/wondering if international opportunities would be different (i.e., working in The Netherlands for a summer is less of a thread to my CA residency than working in NYC or DC)? I think I would only leave California for the summer if it was for another country.

2) On that note, can anyone speak to the abundance of 1L summer international externship opportunities? This was a strong point of Michigan; I talked with their Dean of Int'l Affairs and she told me about all of the great options I would have for summer work abroad. I get the impression that this sort of thing is not as common at Boalt...but I hope I am wrong!

3) How easy is it to get an "Edley Grant" for your 1L summer? Does it have to be specifically for non-profit/gov't work, or does it just have to be unpaid? The school makes it sound like it's easy, but I'd like to hear from students how competitive this process really is.

4) Have any of you worked in clinics? What is the general "word on the street" about the quality of the clinics? I am especially interested in the Death Penalty and International Human Rights Clinics -- but I have yet to encounter students involved in either. This is another factor pulling me towards Michigan -- they offer more clinics, and in some more specialized areas of interest to me.

5) Clerkships. I hear the grading system makes it harder to obtain clerkships. Jockeying for a federal clerkship is one thing I know for sure I want to do after law school, and I am bummed that Michigan (I think) does better than Boalt in this regard. How competitive is this process? Do lots of students go for it? If clerking depends less on class/rank, what do Boalt students tend to do in order to distinguish themselves otherwise?

6) Is it super hard to get onto the primary law journal? And are grades a factor, or is it only via a write-on?

1. You can still get residency if you're doing a job you couldn't do in CA. So, if your job is at the Hague, you can likely get it. Not so if you go to a legal aid office because you can do that here. They are huge sticklers about the residency thing though, so don't count on it 100%. If you are concerned, when you get here set up an appointment to talk to the residency office. It also helps if you stay here for Thanksgiving, winter, and spring break.

2. I don't see how Michigan would have opportunities different from any other top 10 school for this. Internships are, for the vast majority, set up by the student. The school might be able to help you by giving you some ideas or some contacts, but the applications are 100% you. We send tons of people abroad in the summer, and I would imagine it's the same at Michigan and other similar schools. If you want to go abroad, just talk to 2Ls and 3Ls who did it last year and research opportunities.

3. It's not competitive, you do 25 pro bono hours in student run clinics during the year. There are also other competitive summer fellowships you can apply for. It has to be legal work supervised by a lawyer, in a public interest or government setting. Working for a judge does not qualify.

4. I haven't, but I will be doing one of them. I've heard nothing but good things. There are also a lot of other practicums and externship opportunities if the clinics don't appeal to you. I don't know if Michigan allows this, but one of the advantages of Berkeley over other schools is the opportunity to get involved with student run clinics your first year. You can represent asylees, educate kids in juvenile hall, do a worker's rights clinic, etc. all during 1L. Being in the bay area, there are also a lot more places to extern and intern than you would have at Michigan just based on geography.

[23fulltimecowboys]

count me in. really psyched on boalt.

sorry if i've missed it, but what do you current boalties think of the housing options? does anyone know a good rundown aside from the admitted students' site? i'm basically trying to be as close to the hall as possible, and as cheap as possible, def under $1,100. not too concerned about size or noise. has anyone done one of the housing cooperatives?

[Tangerine Gleam]

Just for the record (i.e. current students who have places they're looking to pass along), my lady and I are looking for a 1 or 2-bedroom spot NOT in Berkeley...would like a nicer neighborhood in Oakland with nearby BART access...Rockridge, Lake Merritt, maybe Temescal. $1,500/mo. or less would be ideal.

I currently live in a beautiful studio in the Castro which I'm looking to transition out of. I would definitely want to stay here if I wasn't expecting a hectic 1L year. 2L or 3L's considering moving to SF, get in touch.

[worldtraveler]

count me in. really psyched on boalt.

sorry if i've missed it, but what do you current boalties think of the housing options? does anyone know a good rundown aside from the admitted students' site? i'm basically trying to be as close to the hall as possible, and as cheap as possible, def under $1,100. not too concerned about size or noise. has anyone done one of the housing cooperatives?

There are a lot better options than this. Craigslist is the way to go for off-campus housing. Make sure you can either walk or are on a convenient busline. Current students can help with this. You might be able to get a studio for 1100, or you could try roommates. Even if you don't care abut noise now, you might during law school. It's way diff than UG.

As for University housing, the people in iHouse seem to be happy there, but this is more of a dorm style. WT can comment on this further.

Manville is generally believed to be overpriced, but within your price range, but it's essentially a small studio with a kitchnette. I honestly think it is a good option if you don't have time to look in person, esp. since studios near campus tend to be quite expensive if they are decent. And esp. if you are adverse to finding random roommates.

Ihouse is absolutely awesome, if you 1) like living in a dorm, 2) don't mind sharing bathrooms, 3)aren't a super picky eater. I loved the dorms in college, and pretty much every other person here also really likes dorm living, but it's not for everybody. I would highly recommend ihouse, but it might be a bit expensive for what you want. I think it's something like 1400/month including food. You can get scholarships for your 2nd or 3rd year in house. We also have a 10k public interest grant we can get to volunteer in the summer, and it's not competitive at all. It's also by far the most convenient place to live since it's about a 30 second walk to school.

[23fulltimecowboys]

Thanks, Amy and WT! Ihouse appeals to me greatly - I don't mind dorm life, and I can't cook for beans. Is the food decent and all you can eat? 3 meals? Is it at a cafeteria within Ihouse? My main concern with Ihouse is price, but maybe at least for 1L it's just worth it (planning to live with my gf in SF 2L and 3L, for hopefully much less). I've heard Ihouse is loud - true? (I know I just said that wouldn't bother me, but might as well ask)

I think I'll take your word on the coops, WT. I've been scoping the area on Craigslist for a while now, but haven't found too many places that fit the bill near enough to Boalt for my liking. As far as looking, is it true that you can really only begin a few weeks before you're looking to rent? I'll be in SF from mid to late June, but then won't return until early August. I'd love to have something locked up before I come back in August - is that only possible by either renting sight unseen sometime in July or through University housing like Ihouse and Manville? For I and M, do I want to submit my application ASAP, as in before I get back from China, or would it still be cool when I'm there in June, so I can scope them out first?

Oh, and as for finding random roommates - how do people go about that? Just through Craigslist? Boalt facebook pages? TLS?

Sorry for the barrage of questions. Hopefully they're useful to others as well. Thanks!

[worldtraveler]

Thanks, Amy and WT! Ihouse appeals to me greatly - I don't mind dorm life, and I can't cook for beans. Is the food decent and all you can eat? 3 meals? Is it at a cafeteria within Ihouse? My main concern with Ihouse is price, but maybe at least for 1L it's just worth it (planning to live with my gf in SF 2L and 3L, for hopefully much less). I've heard Ihouse is loud - true? (I know I just said that wouldn't bother me, but might as well ask)

I think I'll take your word on the coops, WT. I've been scoping the area on Craigslist for a while now, but haven't found too many places that fit the bill near enough to Boalt for my liking. As far as looking, is it true that you can really only begin a few weeks before you're looking to rent? I'll be in SF from mid to late June, but then won't return until early August. I'd love to have something locked up before I come back in August - is that only possible by either renting sight unseen sometime in July or through University housing like Ihouse and Manville? For I and M, do I want to submit my application ASAP, as in before I get back from China, or would it still be cool when I'm there in June, so I can scope them out first?

Oh, and as for finding random roommates - how do people go about that? Just through Craigslist? Boalt facebook pages? TLS?

Sorry for the barrage of questions. Hopefully they're useful to others as well. Thanks!

For the most part, I think the food is very good. I'm also not all that picky. I wouldn't recommend it for people with crazy dietary requirements or for vegans. It is all you can eat, you get 250 meals a semester (if you run out EVERYBODY else will have extra meals). Really, just check out the menu on http://www.ihouse.berkeley.edu and see if it's stuff you'd like to eat.

Ihouse is only loud on the 3rd and 4th floors, which are the biggest floors and full of drunk Europeans. They also have a lot of fun. I would recommend requesting 5,6 or 7 (8 is women only), and if you don't get one of those you can request to move rooms. If you care about living near other law students, we're almost all on the 5th and 6th floors. You should apply in June at the latest. Last year they had extra rooms but that is uncommon.

Also, the one big downside to ihouse is that since we start a week earlier than the rest of the university, ihouse doesn't officially open until the thursday of the first week of class. To move in earlier you have to request it and it's about $60/night I think. I didn't pay it and stayed with a friend, and it worked out fine. If you don't have somewhere else to stay though make sure that you request it early.

In some ways living here can save you a lot of money and time. You don't need to grocery shop, cook, and practically don't need to clean. There are also a lot of free or cheap activities and trips. All your furniture is provided. You also have no need for a car. I stayed under the school's recommended budget for the year.

[23fulltimecowboys]

dear WT:
thanks. you are cool.

[Rotor]

Just for the record (i.e. current students who have places they're looking to pass along), my lady and I are looking for a 1 or 2-bedroom spot NOT in Berkeley...would like a nicer neighborhood in Oakland with nearby BART access...Rockridge, Lake Merritt, maybe Temescal. $1,500/mo. or less would be ideal.

I currently live in a beautiful studio in the Castro which I'm looking to transition out of. I would definitely want to stay here if I wasn't expecting a hectic 1L year. 2L or 3L's considering moving to SF, get in touch.

TG: We've got a few classmates who have survived 1L year quite well from SF (couple in the Mission that I know of, others I just know they make the trip every day). If you like your place in the Castro, it's not impossible. The AC Transit F bus is free (and drops you right outside the east doors of the school).

Personally, I wouldn't cross off Berkeley from your list altogether. There are nice neighborhoods and deals can be found. Just don't look right around the school-- last year it seemed very expensive for what you got. Get half a mile to a mile away or so (especially north and south-- not so much directly west ) it's much better. I bike a couple miles in every day and I really appreciate Berkeley's "Bicycle Boulevards" (all year I only had one close call because I don't really have to compete with cars for lane space)

As for Temescal and Lake Merritt, they're nice areas, but if you're planning on taking the bus check the AC Tranist site. Unless you get an express (and with the new routes there aren't many left) it might take you as long to get in from there as from the SF Transbay Terminal. Local busses stop EVERY block. Of course if you have a scooter or something, you'll have zero problem. Parking for cars is limited and expensive.

Good luck!

[Tangerine Gleam]

Thanks, Rotor! I have considered staying here in SF, but I'm pretty set on living in the East Bay at this point. In addition to hopefully saving time/stress on the commute, I'd like to be able to afford a place with a few bedrooms so that I can have a study. Maybe after 1L I will come back to the city, but for now I'm actually excited about having some extra space and slightly less hectic environs. And biking to school sounds really awesome.

Thanks for the info on Berkeley living. Maybe we are writing it off too quickly; I just don't want to be surrounded by too much noise, nor an entirely school-focused culture (i.e. my lady and I would like to hang out at nearby bars that aren't mostly students, etc.) I guess this is not enough reason to overlook living in Berkeley entirely.

My SO will probably be working in San Francisco, so we would like to be near to a BART station. I haven't actually seen the area around the North Berkeley station...what's it like?

[Rotor]

My SO will probably be working in San Francisco, so we would like to be near to a BART station. I haven't actually seen the area around the North Berkeley station...what's it like?

We really like it. Zero "campus" feel. 10 min walk to Cheeseboard, 5 min walk to NBerk BART. Love love love Monterrey Market and Hopkins Street shops (MM=an honest to goodness green grocer without the glitz of Berkeley Bowl).

East and North of the station are mostly uniformly OK. West and south less so but still good neighborhoods. If you have specific questions PM and I'll try and get to them. For now, must go to bed: CivPro tomorrow AM.

[Dignan]

To shift gears a bit, I have a laptop question. I'm a Mac guy, but I've heard that PCs are recommended (or maybe even required?) to run the testing software. If the testing software is windows-specific, then I assume that I won't have a problem running it with boot camp on my Mac.

Do several students have Mac laptops? And, if so, are they able to run the testing software without difficulty?

Oh, and good luck on your civ pro final, Rotor.