Judges/ circuits that take the most holistic approach to applications? Forum

[Anonymous User]

COA judges that look at and actually weigh things other than school and GPA?

[Anonymous User]

Unsure what you mean by this. most judges are not doing a pure gpa/school thing. If you mean judges who value those less than there are lots of Fed Soc judges who look for ideology and lot of other judges who look for URM status and public interest lit experience.

[Anonymous User]

I'm assuming you're asking this question because you attend a lower-ranked school and do not have a great GPA. If you want to clerk, you should target judges where you have some kind of connection that will get you pulled from the initial pile. Generally, this means judges your school typically sends students to clerk for, judges in your circuit/state, and any other judges your recommenders know and will recommend you to.

[Anonymous User]

Unsure what you mean by this. most judges are not doing a pure gpa/school thing. If you mean judges who value those less than there are lots of Fed Soc judges who look for ideology and lot of other judges who look for URM status and public interest lit experience.

This. I guess could see some judges hiring the top student at like the T6 no questions asked, but most judges are going to want to get a sense of you as a person (hence the interview). If you're looking for judges who are less grade-sensitive, those are generally going to be the more ideological judges (and more so on the right, if for no other reason than the fact that there are fewer hard-right conservative applicants/law students than hard-left ones).

Also, "circuits" do not hire clerks (except for the staff attorneys' offices, I guess), judges do. There's going to be a wide variation in terms of how judges on the same circuit hire.

[Anonymous User]

Unsure what you mean by this. most judges are not doing a pure gpa/school thing. If you mean judges who value those less than there are lots of Fed Soc judges who look for ideology and lot of other judges who look for URM status and public interest lit experience.

This. I guess could see some judges hiring the top student at like the T6 no questions asked, but most judges are going to want to get a sense of you as a person (hence the interview). If you're looking for judges who are less grade-sensitive, those are generally going to be the more ideological judges (and more so on the right, if for no other reason than the fact that there are fewer hard-right conservative applicants/law students than hard-left ones).

Also, "circuits" do not hire clerks (except for the staff attorneys' offices, I guess), judges do. There's going to be a wide variation in terms of how judges on the same circuit hire.

The "T6" is not a meaningful grouping of schools

Otherwise all good points in this thread so far.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, the problem is that most judges can find plenty of candidates with excellent grades and school pedigrees, *and* the other more holistic stuff.

It is frustrating to hear that there are judges prioritizing public interest or URM status etc without getting info about who they are, but it’s kind of hard to pass that kind of detail along. I guess I’d say that if your issue is school name, prioritize judges who have hired from your school before, or who are alumni; and if your issue is grades, you’re probably best trying to cultivate connections with people who can advocate for you and convince judges to look beyond your grades.

Also, figure out what makes you holistically appealing (unique life experience? commitment to a particular practice area? a particular political bent?) and target judges who even if only on paper look sympathetic to those things. Like if you’re a first-generation college grad, look for a judge who was as well, that kind of thing. I don’t think there are really any easier options for doing this than just looking up individual judges, but just start with the ones you’d most like to clerk for, and/or local ones, and work your way down the line.

Don’t mean to sound snarky, but if by “weigh things other than school and GPA” you really mean “will hire me despite my school/GPA” and can’t ID anything particularly unique or interesting that you want judges to weigh more heavily than traditional stats, you’re not likely to have much luck.

[Anonymous User]

Its been a little bit since I clerked, as I recall, Judge Wilkins on the DC Cir looks for public interest people and requires a separate letter outlining why you want to clerk for him. (This is on OSCAR) Similarly, I think Judge Drain in ED Michigan does similarly. (Ditto) I wouldn't be surprised if Judge Reeves in SD Mississippi hired for public interest as well.

I can also see that military service would be a big boost.

Otherwise, I agree with the post above

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, the problem is that most judges can find plenty of candidates with excellent grades and school pedigrees, *and* the other more holistic stuff.

It is frustrating to hear that there are judges prioritizing public interest or URM status etc without getting info about who they are, but it’s kind of hard to pass that kind of detail along. I guess I’d say that if your issue is school name, prioritize judges who have hired from your school before, or who are alumni; and if your issue is grades, you’re probably best trying to cultivate connections with people who can advocate for you and convince judges to look beyond your grades.

Also, figure out what makes you holistically appealing (unique life experience? commitment to a particular practice area? a particular political bent?) and target judges who even if only on paper look sympathetic to those things. Like if you’re a first-generation college grad, look for a judge who was as well, that kind of thing. I don’t think there are really any easier options for doing this than just looking up individual judges, but just start with the ones you’d most like to clerk for, and/or local ones, and work your way down the line.

Don’t mean to sound snarky, but if by “weigh things other than school and GPA” you really mean “will hire me despite my school/GPA” and can’t ID anything particularly unique or interesting that you want judges to weigh more heavily than traditional stats, you’re not likely to have much luck.

I am a Rhodes Scholar, served in the military, and want to be a federal defender. So no, that is not what I really meant, and unsure to how my post implied that lol

[Anonymous User]

There are things that consistently make applicants punch above their weight across the board--military service, URM, unusual regional background (esp proximity to the judge), top-level athletic background, prominent family, personal connection vouching for you. Then there's ideological commitment, which post-Biden matters increasingly to both sides. Then there are weird idiosyncrasies, like Rehnquist preferring good tennis players, that are hard to predict.

But those things matter in large part because they can be hard to find. If you're an applicant with none of those things, just the same things everyone else has, you're probably just a weak applicant, not a strong nontraditional applicant who just needs a simpatico judge.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, the problem is that most judges can find plenty of candidates with excellent grades and school pedigrees, *and* the other more holistic stuff.

It is frustrating to hear that there are judges prioritizing public interest or URM status etc without getting info about who they are, but it’s kind of hard to pass that kind of detail along. I guess I’d say that if your issue is school name, prioritize judges who have hired from your school before, or who are alumni; and if your issue is grades, you’re probably best trying to cultivate connections with people who can advocate for you and convince judges to look beyond your grades.

Also, figure out what makes you holistically appealing (unique life experience? commitment to a particular practice area? a particular political bent?) and target judges who even if only on paper look sympathetic to those things. Like if you’re a first-generation college grad, look for a judge who was as well, that kind of thing. I don’t think there are really any easier options for doing this than just looking up individual judges, but just start with the ones you’d most like to clerk for, and/or local ones, and work your way down the line.

Don’t mean to sound snarky, but if by “weigh things other than school and GPA” you really mean “will hire me despite my school/GPA” and can’t ID anything particularly unique or interesting that you want judges to weigh more heavily than traditional stats, you’re not likely to have much luck.

I am a Rhodes Scholar, served in the military, and want to be a federal defender. So no, that is not what I really meant, and unsure to how my post implied that lol

I didn’t say that your post specifically had implied that. But I have seen people rail against judges for privileging very traditional qualifications (GPA/school) when they haven’t really been able to offer any reason why judges should look past those things in their case. I don’t think that GPA/school ranking in any way guarantee that someone will be either a good clerk or a bad clerk; I’m sure the people who’ve been upset about hiring practices would be perfectly good clerks. But when judges have to wade through 400+ applications every year, it’s not surprising that they use those things to weed people out.

All that said - with Rhodes Scholar and military service on your resume, I really don’t think you have to worry. That combo is going to stand out in most application piles.

However, to maximize your chances, look up judges who were Rhodes scholars and/or served in the military. A clerk the term before me got hired (in part) because they shared an undergrad alma mater and military service with our judge (the clerk had good grades from a respectable but not elite law school). Aspiring federal defender will play well with a lot of the Biden appointees. If your school keeps track of who’s hired from your school, you can reach out to the former clerks and find out about their judges’ approach to hiring.

It’s just kind of hard to reel off individual judges who fit these categories on a website (as someone already said, this is an individual thing, not a circuit thing).

[Anonymous User]

If you're actually a Rhodes scholar and in the military I'm not really sure the purpose of this post? Surely it was not your impression that those two things would not be massive helps and points of consideration by all judges?

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, the problem is that most judges can find plenty of candidates with excellent grades and school pedigrees, *and* the other more holistic stuff.

It is frustrating to hear that there are judges prioritizing public interest or URM status etc without getting info about who they are, but it’s kind of hard to pass that kind of detail along. I guess I’d say that if your issue is school name, prioritize judges who have hired from your school before, or who are alumni; and if your issue is grades, you’re probably best trying to cultivate connections with people who can advocate for you and convince judges to look beyond your grades.

Also, figure out what makes you holistically appealing (unique life experience? commitment to a particular practice area? a particular political bent?) and target judges who even if only on paper look sympathetic to those things. Like if you’re a first-generation college grad, look for a judge who was as well, that kind of thing. I don’t think there are really any easier options for doing this than just looking up individual judges, but just start with the ones you’d most like to clerk for, and/or local ones, and work your way down the line.

Don’t mean to sound snarky, but if by “weigh things other than school and GPA” you really mean “will hire me despite my school/GPA” and can’t ID anything particularly unique or interesting that you want judges to weigh more heavily than traditional stats, you’re not likely to have much luck.

I am a Rhodes Scholar, served in the military, and want to be a federal defender. So no, that is not what I really meant, and unsure to how my post implied that lol

I didn’t say that your post specifically had implied that. But I have seen people rail against judges for privileging very traditional qualifications (GPA/school) when they haven’t really been able to offer any reason why judges should look past those things in their case. I don’t think that GPA/school ranking in any way guarantee that someone will be either a good clerk or a bad clerk; I’m sure the people who’ve been upset about hiring practices would be perfectly good clerks. But when judges have to wade through 400+ applications every year, it’s not surprising that they use those things to weed people out.

All that said - with Rhodes Scholar and military service on your resume, I really don’t think you have to worry. That combo is going to stand out in most application piles.

However, to maximize your chances, look up judges who were Rhodes scholars and/or served in the military. A clerk the term before me got hired (in part) because they shared an undergrad alma mater and military service with our judge (the clerk had good grades from a respectable but not elite law school). Aspiring federal defender will play well with a lot of the Biden appointees. If your school keeps track of who’s hired from your school, you can reach out to the former clerks and find out about their judges’ approach to hiring.

It’s just kind of hard to reel off individual judges who fit these categories on a website (as someone already said, this is an individual thing, not a circuit thing).

Rich Federico, the new Biden appointee to CA10 out of Kansas, was in the Navy and a federal defender until he joined the bench, so he'd probably be a good fit. Tharp on NDIL is also known for favoring veterans, as is Millet on CADC.

Also, what school you went to/what your grades are still matter, even among the less school/grade-sensitive judges. The Rhodes scholar/military background/PD aspirations might be enough to overcome being in the top quarter/third (rather than the top 10% or 5%) of your class or being at a non-T14 (but still respected) regional school. If you're around median or at a low-ranked school (that has no ties to the judge), it's unfortunately going to be significantly harder with even the least grade-sensitive judges.