Rank these courts in order of prestige? Forum

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Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 11, 2024 9:02 pm

SDNY, EDNY, DNJ, DMass, EDPA, 1st Circuit, 2nd Circuit, 3rd Circuit

Obviously this will depend on the judge itself, but just speaking generally.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 10:46 am

1. 2nd Circuit
2. SDNY
3. 3rd Circuit
4. 1st Circuit
5. EDNY
6. DMass
7. EDPA
8. DNJ

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 11:43 am

Not OP but this is useful. Where would D.Conn fit in here?

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 12:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 11:43 am
Not OP but this is useful. Where would D.Conn fit in here?
Same tier as DNJ

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 1:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 10:46 am
1. 2nd Circuit
2. SDNY
3. 3rd Circuit
4. 1st Circuit
5. EDNY
6. DMass
7. EDPA
8. DNJ
For all practical purposes:
1. 1st Cir. / 2nd Cir. / 3rd. Cir.
2. SDNY / EDNY / DMass / EDPA / DNJ

If you really want to split hairs:
1. 2d Cir.
2. 1st Cir. / 3d Cir.
3. SDNY / EDNY
4. DMass, EDPA, DNJ

If you plan to live in NY:
1. 2d Cir
2. SDNY / EDNY
3. Everything else

However, judge prestige matters more than court prestige. There are hardly any clerkships on the 2nd Circuit I would take over Judge Bibas, for example.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 5:10 pm

Thanks for all the helpful answers y'all. Are there other courts in the NYC/DC/Boston adjacent areas that are on the same tier as DNJ, DMass, DConn, and EDPA?

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 5:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 1:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 10:46 am
1. 2nd Circuit
2. SDNY
3. 3rd Circuit
4. 1st Circuit
5. EDNY
6. DMass
7. EDPA
8. DNJ
For all practical purposes:
1. 1st Cir. / 2nd Cir. / 3rd. Cir.
2. SDNY / EDNY / DMass / EDPA / DNJ

If you really want to split hairs:
1. 2d Cir.
2. 1st Cir. / 3d Cir.
3. SDNY / EDNY
4. DMass, EDPA, DNJ

If you plan to live in NY:
1. 2d Cir
2. SDNY / EDNY
3. Everything else

However, judge prestige matters more than court prestige. There are hardly any clerkships on the 2nd Circuit I would take over Judge Bibas, for example.
Not Perez?

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 7:10 pm

Other than SCOTUS, Bibas isn't worth much.

CA2 and SDNY, along with CADC and DDC, are king.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 7:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 1:07 pm
For all practical purposes:
1. 1st Cir. / 2nd Cir. / 3rd. Cir.
2. SDNY / EDNY / DMass / EDPA / DNJ

If you plan to live in NY:
1. 2d Cir
2. SDNY / EDNY
3. Everything else

However, judge prestige matters more than court prestige.
Yeah, the above is pretty sensible. Ranking courts more finely than this is just kind of silly. If you plan to work in Boston, DMass and 1st Circuit will be more valuable. If you plan to be in Philly, aim for 3rd Cir/EDPA. DNJ is probably equally helpful for Philly or NYC. And individual judge reputations matter more than jurisdiction in a vacuum.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 9:42 pm

This is pretty idiotic only because prestige is tied with judges and not entire circuits. No prestige-obsessed lawyer would ever pick a Eunice Lee in NYC (2nd Circ.) over a Jeff Sutton in Ohio (6th Circ.). The only circuit that’s a cut above the rest is the DC Circuit. District court prestige is tied to both judge/subject matter - for aspiring patent litigators, a clerkship at the EDVA is probably worth more than at the EDNY.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 10:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 9:42 pm
This is pretty idiotic only because prestige is tied with judges and not entire circuits. No prestige-obsessed lawyer would ever pick a Eunice Lee in NYC (2nd Circ.) over a Jeff Sutton in Ohio (6th Circ.). The only circuit that’s a cut above the rest is the DC Circuit. District court prestige is tied to both judge/subject matter - for aspiring patent litigators, a clerkship at the EDVA is probably worth more than at the EDNY.
I'm the anon above who's already said that ranking courts finely is silly. But the OP didn't ask about the 6th Cir. And from the list, it looks like they want to be in the northeast, not Ohio. There's a difference between "which is the best option period" and "which is the best option in the places where I'm going to be."

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 13, 2024 10:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 9:42 pm
This is pretty idiotic only because prestige is tied with judges and not entire circuits. No prestige-obsessed lawyer would ever pick a Eunice Lee in NYC (2nd Circ.) over a Jeff Sutton in Ohio (6th Circ.). The only circuit that’s a cut above the rest is the DC Circuit. District court prestige is tied to both judge/subject matter - for aspiring patent litigators, a clerkship at the EDVA is probably worth more than at the EDNY.
You're right on the facts on this, but also we should just let people make dumb/fun posts. Obviously if some idiot was talking about how a clerkship with Eunice Lee or whoever is worth more than any other clerkship in the Sixth Circuit then sure. But OP admitted he knows it depends on the judge, he just wants general vibes. Nothing wrong with that.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am

CA2 is all else equal (a big caveat) better than CA1 or CA3, though those are also strong circuits. Somewhat more definitively, SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC, though DDC and SDNY are *very* different clerkships in other ways. Agree that DNJ is probably the worst of these (again, all else being equal, and depends a lot on the judge and where you want to practice).

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 14, 2024 1:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am
CA2 is all else equal (a big caveat) better than CA1 or CA3, though those are also strong circuits. Somewhat more definitively, SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC, though DDC and SDNY are *very* different clerkships in other ways. Agree that DNJ is probably the worst of these (again, all else being equal, and depends a lot on the judge and where you want to practice).
DNJ is definitely the hardest fit as a generic 2L looking to clerk before NYC (or other non-NJ) biglaw. The New Jersey federal bench is pretty insular and state-focused, and most (not all) judges on that court are looking for people with ties to NJ and interest in long-term practice in NJ rather than interest in jumping back across the Hudson after a year.

That mindset is less prevalent on D. Mass. and EDPA (and I believe D. Conn., which is a smaller court than any of these), which are both great districts. A one-year sojourn to Boston to Philly is a better play for most people than trying for DNJ.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue May 14, 2024 4:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am
CA2 is all else equal (a big caveat) better than CA1 or CA3, though those are also strong circuits. Somewhat more definitively, SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC, though DDC and SDNY are *very* different clerkships in other ways. Agree that DNJ is probably the worst of these (again, all else being equal, and depends a lot on the judge and where you want to practice).
In DC (a very prestige-focused market), I haven't seen any systematic bias towards CA2 over CA1 or CA3. NY as a market is unusually parochial; for those practicing in NY I would give CA2 and SDNY the edge over most out-of-state clerkships. However, I haven't seen a noticeable gap in NY between SDNY and EDNY. Elsewhere, SDNY carries slightly more prestige (unless you are clerking for a big-name judge live Rachel Kovner).

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 15, 2024 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am
SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC
Can you explain why this is?

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 15, 2024 3:26 pm

SDNY is and has always been the most prestigious trial court in the country. It is also especially desirable given the fact that the NY BigLaw market is bigger than any other.

On SDNY, you will see it all: complex, bet-the-company commercial litigation, securities cases, intellectual property suits, complex white collar, national security and public corruption criminal cases brought by the best prosecutors in the nation, and so much more.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 15, 2024 4:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 2:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am
SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC
Can you explain why this is?
There is a perception that these courts have the most District Judge feeders to SCOTUS clerkships. Also, the District Judges on those courts are relatively better credentialed; many of them have clerked for SCOTUS themselves.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2024 11:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 4:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 2:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am
SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC
Can you explain why this is?
There is a perception that these courts have the most District Judge feeders to SCOTUS clerkships. Also, the District Judges on those courts are relatively better credentialed; many of them have clerked for SCOTUS themselves.
For a take less infected by 2L brain rot (sorry dude, we've all been there at some point): SDNY and DDC stand out because, on average, they are more competitive than any other district clerkships in the country. As for why, geographic reasons aside, it's the dockets that stand out.

DDC handles more national security, admin law, and other capital-specific cases than any other district for obvious reasons.

SDNY features one of the heaviest civil dockets in the nation (most districts will handle many more criminal cases than civil cases). Not only that, the SDNY civil docket features a terrific mix of interesting cases ranging from securities to IP to maritime law. Any district clerk will handle their share of regular criminal cases (18 USC 922 anyone?), but the average SDNY clerk will see some really interesting cases that, say, the average D. Kan. clerk will not.

The DJ feeders rationale is shot. How many "District Judge feeders" are there on today's DDC/SDNY? Are "District Judge feeders" even a thing, aside from like, 2 very specific judges? And on DDC/SDNY today, like, 3 total? By that metric, EDNY should be just as "prestigious" as SDNY/DDC, perhaps more so than SDNY given Kovner/Komitee.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2024 11:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:01 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 4:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 2:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:09 am
SDNY is the best district clerkship in the country along with DDC
Can you explain why this is?
There is a perception that these courts have the most District Judge feeders to SCOTUS clerkships. Also, the District Judges on those courts are relatively better credentialed; many of them have clerked for SCOTUS themselves.
For a take less infected by 2L brain rot (sorry dude, we've all been there at some point): SDNY and DDC stand out because, on average, they are more competitive than any other district clerkships in the country. As for why, geographic reasons aside, it's the dockets that stand out.

DDC handles more national security, admin law, and other capital-specific cases than any other district for obvious reasons.

SDNY features one of the heaviest civil dockets in the nation (most districts will handle many more criminal cases than civil cases). Not only that, the SDNY civil docket features a terrific mix of interesting cases ranging from securities to IP to maritime law. Any district clerk will handle their share of regular criminal cases (18 USC 922 anyone?), but the average SDNY clerk will see some really interesting cases that, say, the average D. Kan. clerk will not.

The DJ feeders rationale is shot. How many "District Judge feeders" are there on today's DDC/SDNY? Are "District Judge feeders" even a thing, aside from like, 2 very specific judges? And on DDC/SDNY today, like, 3 total? By that metric, EDNY should be just as "prestigious" as SDNY/DDC, perhaps more so than SDNY given Kovner/Komitee.
This entirely. There was a hot second (really, about 5 years) where E.D. Tex. was an enormously valuable clerkship for aspiring patent litigators, because the most high-value patent litigation in the country was being filed there (mostly before Judge Gilstrap) until the venue rules changed. But S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. will perennially have the most complex, challenging civil dockets of any courts.

I'll also add an even simpler reason why S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. are prestigious: they are located in Manhattan and Washington, where many high-credentialed applicants who could be hired anywhere want to work, and where many of the firms and government orgs that these candidates later want to work for are located. Demand creates competition and competition creates prestige.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2024 8:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:07 am
This entirely. There was a hot second (really, about 5 years) where E.D. Tex. was an enormously valuable clerkship for aspiring patent litigators, because the most high-value patent litigation in the country was being filed there (mostly before Judge Gilstrap) until the venue rules changed. But S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. will perennially have the most complex, challenging civil dockets of any courts.

I'll also add an even simpler reason why S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. are prestigious: they are located in Manhattan and Washington, where many high-credentialed applicants who could be hired anywhere want to work, and where many of the firms and government orgs that these candidates later want to work for are located. Demand creates competition and competition creates prestige.
This makes sense to the degree that you (collective you) don't equate prestige with quality. There are other measures of quality that you allude to - the complex dockets - which is fair, but not entirely limited to those districts (EDVA and NDCA in particular are going to have pretty rich and varied dockets too). The fact that there are a lot of people who want to be in NYC/DC definitely makes them sought after districts, and hard to get, but doesn't in itself make them inherently better.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 17, 2024 12:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 8:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:07 am
This entirely. There was a hot second (really, about 5 years) where E.D. Tex. was an enormously valuable clerkship for aspiring patent litigators, because the most high-value patent litigation in the country was being filed there (mostly before Judge Gilstrap) until the venue rules changed. But S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. will perennially have the most complex, challenging civil dockets of any courts.

I'll also add an even simpler reason why S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. are prestigious: they are located in Manhattan and Washington, where many high-credentialed applicants who could be hired anywhere want to work, and where many of the firms and government orgs that these candidates later want to work for are located. Demand creates competition and competition creates prestige.
This makes sense to the degree that you (collective you) don't equate prestige with quality. There are other measures of quality that you allude to - the complex dockets - which is fair, but not entirely limited to those districts (EDVA and NDCA in particular are going to have pretty rich and varied dockets too). The fact that there are a lot of people who want to be in NYC/DC definitely makes them sought after districts, and hard to get, but doesn't in itself make them inherently better.
To answer the single comprehensible point you made, EDVA is a poor man's DDC with some patent herbs sprinkled in (and trust me, you don't want to be on those unless you're a patent geek). NDCA has a great docket but is a step behind SDNY/DDC.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 17, 2024 7:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 12:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 8:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:07 am
This entirely. There was a hot second (really, about 5 years) where E.D. Tex. was an enormously valuable clerkship for aspiring patent litigators, because the most high-value patent litigation in the country was being filed there (mostly before Judge Gilstrap) until the venue rules changed. But S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. will perennially have the most complex, challenging civil dockets of any courts.

I'll also add an even simpler reason why S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. are prestigious: they are located in Manhattan and Washington, where many high-credentialed applicants who could be hired anywhere want to work, and where many of the firms and government orgs that these candidates later want to work for are located. Demand creates competition and competition creates prestige.
This makes sense to the degree that you (collective you) don't equate prestige with quality. There are other measures of quality that you allude to - the complex dockets - which is fair, but not entirely limited to those districts (EDVA and NDCA in particular are going to have pretty rich and varied dockets too). The fact that there are a lot of people who want to be in NYC/DC definitely makes them sought after districts, and hard to get, but doesn't in itself make them inherently better.
To answer the single comprehensible point you made, EDVA is a poor man's DDC with some patent herbs sprinkled in (and trust me, you don't want to be on those unless you're a patent geek). NDCA has a great docket but is a step behind SDNY/DDC.
Fair enough about EDVA, I know more about the criminal side, CDCA might have been a better example. My take is that the average clerk, in one year, is not going to have a materially different quality of experience at NDCA over SDNY/DDC, or at some of the other major metros in the US.

As for not being comprehensible, I'm just saying that conceptually, the fact that clerkships in particular cities are sought after because a particular group of people wants to live in those cities isn't really about the clerkships themselves.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 17, 2024 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 7:04 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri May 17, 2024 12:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 8:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:07 am
This entirely. There was a hot second (really, about 5 years) where E.D. Tex. was an enormously valuable clerkship for aspiring patent litigators, because the most high-value patent litigation in the country was being filed there (mostly before Judge Gilstrap) until the venue rules changed. But S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. will perennially have the most complex, challenging civil dockets of any courts.

I'll also add an even simpler reason why S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. are prestigious: they are located in Manhattan and Washington, where many high-credentialed applicants who could be hired anywhere want to work, and where many of the firms and government orgs that these candidates later want to work for are located. Demand creates competition and competition creates prestige.
This makes sense to the degree that you (collective you) don't equate prestige with quality. There are other measures of quality that you allude to - the complex dockets - which is fair, but not entirely limited to those districts (EDVA and NDCA in particular are going to have pretty rich and varied dockets too). The fact that there are a lot of people who want to be in NYC/DC definitely makes them sought after districts, and hard to get, but doesn't in itself make them inherently better.
To answer the single comprehensible point you made, EDVA is a poor man's DDC with some patent herbs sprinkled in (and trust me, you don't want to be on those unless you're a patent geek). NDCA has a great docket but is a step behind SDNY/DDC.
Fair enough about EDVA, I know more about the criminal side, CDCA might have been a better example. My take is that the average clerk, in one year, is not going to have a materially different quality of experience at NDCA over SDNY/DDC, or at some of the other major metros in the US.

As for not being comprehensible, I'm just saying that conceptually, the fact that clerkships in particular cities are sought after because a particular group of people wants to live in those cities isn't really about the clerkships themselves.
You're underestimating the docket differences between SDNY/DDC and the other prestigious metro area dockets (NDCA/CDCA/NDIL/etc.). The civil/criminal ratio is much higher (esp. in DDC) and the districts just get significantly more interesting cases per capita, even on the criminal side. The gap between SDNY and NDCA/NDIL is much smaller than the gap between SDNY and flyover district, but it's measurable. And of course, we're speaking in generalities--someone with a strong patent/IP focus would probably prefer a NDCA clerkship over a SDNY one, all other things equal. Plus, there's a huge luck of the draw element involved; some SDNY clerks may not get assigned to any particular type of case over the 12 months they're plugged in. Still, in your words, the quality of experience is materially different.

As to your other point, it's both the geography and the learning/professional opportunities that the districts represent. This coming from a SDNY/DDC clerk.

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Re: Rank these courts in order of prestige?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 17, 2024 5:21 pm

    Anonymous User wrote:
    Fri May 17, 2024 12:27 pm
    Anonymous User wrote:
    Fri May 17, 2024 7:04 am
    Anonymous User wrote:
    Fri May 17, 2024 12:45 am
    Anonymous User wrote:
    Thu May 16, 2024 8:32 pm
    Anonymous User wrote:
    Thu May 16, 2024 11:07 am
    This entirely. There was a hot second (really, about 5 years) where E.D. Tex. was an enormously valuable clerkship for aspiring patent litigators, because the most high-value patent litigation in the country was being filed there (mostly before Judge Gilstrap) until the venue rules changed. But S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. will perennially have the most complex, challenging civil dockets of any courts.

    I'll also add an even simpler reason why S.D.N.Y. and D.D.C. are prestigious: they are located in Manhattan and Washington, where many high-credentialed applicants who could be hired anywhere want to work, and where many of the firms and government orgs that these candidates later want to work for are located. Demand creates competition and competition creates prestige.
    This makes sense to the degree that you (collective you) don't equate prestige with quality. There are other measures of quality that you allude to - the complex dockets - which is fair, but not entirely limited to those districts (EDVA and NDCA in particular are going to have pretty rich and varied dockets too). The fact that there are a lot of people who want to be in NYC/DC definitely makes them sought after districts, and hard to get, but doesn't in itself make them inherently better.
    To answer the single comprehensible point you made, EDVA is a poor man's DDC with some patent herbs sprinkled in (and trust me, you don't want to be on those unless you're a patent geek). NDCA has a great docket but is a step behind SDNY/DDC.
    Fair enough about EDVA, I know more about the criminal side, CDCA might have been a better example. My take is that the average clerk, in one year, is not going to have a materially different quality of experience at NDCA over SDNY/DDC, or at some of the other major metros in the US.

    As for not being comprehensible, I'm just saying that conceptually, the fact that clerkships in particular cities are sought after because a particular group of people wants to live in those cities isn't really about the clerkships themselves.
    You're underestimating the docket differences between SDNY/DDC and the other prestigious metro area dockets (NDCA/CDCA/NDIL/etc.). The civil/criminal ratio is much higher (esp. in DDC) and the districts just get significantly more interesting cases per capita, even on the criminal side. The gap between SDNY and NDCA/NDIL is much smaller than the gap between SDNY and flyover district, but it's measurable. And of course, we're speaking in generalities--someone with a strong patent/IP focus would probably prefer a NDCA clerkship over a SDNY one, all other things equal. Plus, there's a huge luck of the draw element involved; some SDNY clerks may not get assigned to any particular type of case over the 12 months they're plugged in. Still, in your words, the quality of experience is materially different.

    As to your other point, it's both the geography and the learning/professional opportunities that the districts represent. This coming from a SDNY/DDC clerk.

    That you’re an SDNY/DDC clerk is obvious. This is a laughable analysis from the country’s most prestigious district

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