Clerkship Strategy Forum

[Anonymous User]

Top 5 percent at NYU/CLS give or take a few percent with a courseload filled with hard classes. Law Review. Second year associate at V10 lit firm. My LORs are going to be incredibly meh as I did not go to office hours or get to know professors. No Fed Soc or ACS/public interest connections.

Preference is going to be EDNY/SDNY so I can stay in New York, but if those districts are a stretch I'll look to districts close by like DNJ/DConn/DMass and what have you. If you were in my position would you think I have a good enough chance at EDNY/SDNY to only apply to those or should I bite the bullet for the year and apply much broader. Since judges hire fairly far out now I'm trying to snag something this cycle if possible because I don't want to clerk as a fifth year or sixth year associate.

[Anonymous User]

EDNY/SDNY is absolutely not a stretch unless you plan to exclusively target the most competitive of the competitive (like Oetken or Furman on SDNY or something like that). I would only apply to SDNY/EDNY and see what happens.

[Anonymous User]

EDNY/SDNY is absolutely not a stretch unless you plan to exclusively target the most competitive of the competitive (like Oetken or Furman on SDNY or something like that). I would only apply to SDNY/EDNY and see what happens.

Going to apply to basically everyone. Is it really not a stretch? Keep in mind I don't really have any hooks. I have to imagine that for SDNY/EDNY people like me are a dime a dozen.

[Anonymous User]

I'd apply to everything in commuting distance because I don't think there's a downside. I would be very surprised if you don't get something.

[Anonymous User]

EDNY/SDNY is absolutely not a stretch unless you plan to exclusively target the most competitive of the competitive (like Oetken or Furman on SDNY or something like that). I would only apply to SDNY/EDNY and see what happens.

Going to apply to basically everyone. Is it really not a stretch? Keep in mind I don't really have any hooks. I have to imagine that for SDNY/EDNY people like me are a dime a dozen.

If you’re around top 5% that’s like top 25 people at NYU and top 20 people at CLS. Then take out at least a third of those people who want to do corporate and then all the people who don’t want to step away from biglaw to take the pay cut of clerking. What you’re left with is not that many people, and then you add the subset of other T14 top students who are targeting New York clerkships. There are around 70 district judges on SDNY and EDNY collectively and each typically hires at least a few clerks per year, so you do the math. You’re not actually a dime a dozen.

[j2ls100]

I agree you have a good shot at the NY districts now. Something you could do now to improve your chances is get coffee with one or more of your professor recommenders to "ask for clerking advice" and try to show some personality and explain why you want to clerk. Also try to jog their memory of you since they might not really remember. At this point in your career you could try to get a letter from a lit partner you work with and ask their advice too. There is 100% a clerk network at your firm, try to find it and see what they say. It is really a networking game, work it. While you can probably get something without pushing since you're top 5%, doing the legwork will help sort you to a judge who's a better fit (and people will tell you who to avoid). There is advice people will give you in person that anonymous posters on an internet forum will not.

[Anonymous User]

EDNY/SDNY is absolutely not a stretch unless you plan to exclusively target the most competitive of the competitive (like Oetken or Furman on SDNY or something like that). I would only apply to SDNY/EDNY and see what happens.

Going to apply to basically everyone. Is it really not a stretch? Keep in mind I don't really have any hooks. I have to imagine that for SDNY/EDNY people like me are a dime a dozen.

If you’re around top 5% that’s like top 25 people at NYU and top 20 people at CLS. Then take out at least a third of those people who want to do corporate and then all the people who don’t want to step away from biglaw to take the pay cut of clerking. What you’re left with is not that many people, and then you add the subset of other T14 top students who are targeting New York clerkships. There are around 70 district judges on SDNY and EDNY collectively and each typically hires at least a few clerks per year, so you do the math. You’re not actually a dime a dozen.

There is a subset of judges for which top 5% at CLS/NYU is not special enough to get off the pile, but there are only like 5-10 of them (something like Rakoff, Furman, Oetken, Subramanian, Cronan, Kovner, maybe Ho?). Most judges aren't that selective.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on how detrimental or how much it will hurt having below average lors. Of course, I assume it depends on the judge, but as a whole, any thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on how detrimental or how much it will hurt having below average lors. Of course, I assume it depends on the judge, but as a whole, any thoughts?

Barring some kind of connection to the judge that makes LORs not very important, or maybe absolutely stellar qualifications otherwise (though this would make below average LORs unlikely), I think this would be pretty detrimental.

But it depends on what you mean by "below average." If you mean generic, it's a missing opportunity to make you stand out, but you may not need them much depending on the rest of your app. If you mean letters that are actually below average or portray you as average or below, that will be bad.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on how detrimental or how much it will hurt having below average lors. Of course, I assume it depends on the judge, but as a whole, any thoughts?

Barring some kind of connection to the judge that makes LORs not very important, or maybe absolutely stellar qualifications otherwise (though this would make below average LORs unlikely), I think this would be pretty detrimental.

But it depends on what you mean by "below average." If you mean generic, it's a missing opportunity to make you stand out, but you may not need them much depending on the rest of your app. If you mean letters that are actually below average or portray you as average or below, that will be bad.

Generic. They'll basically say he got an A in my class and asked good questions during office hours and would make a great clerk. Don't think they'll say anything bad.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on how detrimental or how much it will hurt having below average lors. Of course, I assume it depends on the judge, but as a whole, any thoughts?

Barring some kind of connection to the judge that makes LORs not very important, or maybe absolutely stellar qualifications otherwise (though this would make below average LORs unlikely), I think this would be pretty detrimental.

But it depends on what you mean by "below average." If you mean generic, it's a missing opportunity to make you stand out, but you may not need them much depending on the rest of your app. If you mean letters that are actually below average or portray you as average or below, that will be bad.

Generic. They'll basically say he got an A in my class and asked good questions during office hours and would make a great clerk. Don't think they'll say anything bad.

What you're describing is 99% of clerkship recommendations: "X did well in my class and is a smart and nice person. You should hire him/her."

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on how detrimental or how much it will hurt having below average lors. Of course, I assume it depends on the judge, but as a whole, any thoughts?

Barring some kind of connection to the judge that makes LORs not very important, or maybe absolutely stellar qualifications otherwise (though this would make below average LORs unlikely), I think this would be pretty detrimental.

But it depends on what you mean by "below average." If you mean generic, it's a missing opportunity to make you stand out, but you may not need them much depending on the rest of your app. If you mean letters that are actually below average or portray you as average or below, that will be bad.

Generic. They'll basically say he got an A in my class and asked good questions during office hours and would make a great clerk. Don't think they'll say anything bad.

What you're describing is 99% of clerkship recommendations: "X did well in my class and is a smart and nice person. You should hire him/her."

Agreed, this is super typical in a letter. Yes, it's great if your prof can say "this is by far the best student I've taught in 20 years," but by definition, most students won't meet that standard. "Asked good questions during office hours" will in itself set you apart from plenty of candidates, who never did that.

Also, if there are things you think a prof might not know that can improve a letter, feel free to tell them. Send them a copy of your resume and maybe a brief description of your future plans/goals, or things you've done in school that aren't super obvious from your resume. Again, maybe this will be kind of generic (biglaw, hoping for partner), but it can help flesh out a LOR. Some profs will ask you for this as part of the process, but you can volunteer it even if they don't ask.

I think that there are three basic ways that LORs can actually strengthen an application: 1) you've worked one-on-one with the recommender enough for them to go into all kinds of specific detail about your greatness; 2) the recommender can provide necessary context that's awkward for you to talk about yourself (like if you have some kind of compelling back story or had some kind of obstacle to overcome while in school - this only helps if your application gets read in full in the first place, but still, it can be useful); and/or 3) they have a connection with the judge. Otherwise they're mostly going to be confirming the rest of your application and making clear that you're not a sociopath. So maybe they won't add as much to your application as some people's do, but they won't actively hurt at all.

[Anonymous User]

You're getting good advice so all I'll add is that, unless it's a prestige play, there's no reason not to apply to the DNJ judges in Newark. That's an easy enough train commute to make daily from Manhattan.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on how detrimental or how much it will hurt having below average lors. Of course, I assume it depends on the judge, but as a whole, any thoughts?

Barring some kind of connection to the judge that makes LORs not very important, or maybe absolutely stellar qualifications otherwise (though this would make below average LORs unlikely), I think this would be pretty detrimental.

But it depends on what you mean by "below average." If you mean generic, it's a missing opportunity to make you stand out, but you may not need them much depending on the rest of your app. If you mean letters that are actually below average or portray you as average or below, that will be bad.

Generic. They'll basically say he got an A in my class and asked good questions during office hours and would make a great clerk. Don't think they'll say anything bad.

What you're describing is 99% of clerkship recommendations: "X did well in my class and is a smart and nice person. You should hire him/her."

Agreed, this is super typical in a letter. Yes, it's great if your prof can say "this is by far the best student I've taught in 20 years," but by definition, most students won't meet that standard. "Asked good questions during office hours" will in itself set you apart from plenty of candidates, who never did that.

Also, if there are things you think a prof might not know that can improve a letter, feel free to tell them. Send them a copy of your resume and maybe a brief description of your future plans/goals, or things you've done in school that aren't super obvious from your resume. Again, maybe this will be kind of generic (biglaw, hoping for partner), but it can help flesh out a LOR. Some profs will ask you for this as part of the process, but you can volunteer it even if they don't ask.

I think that there are three basic ways that LORs can actually strengthen an application: 1) you've worked one-on-one with the recommender enough for them to go into all kinds of specific detail about your greatness; 2) the recommender can provide necessary context that's awkward for you to talk about yourself (like if you have some kind of compelling back story or had some kind of obstacle to overcome while in school - this only helps if your application gets read in full in the first place, but still, it can be useful); and/or 3) they have a connection with the judge. Otherwise they're mostly going to be confirming the rest of your application and making clear that you're not a sociopath. So maybe they won't add as much to your application as some people's do, but they won't actively hurt at all.

I think there's a range between "good in class" and "smartest person I ever taught." Specific (i.e. non-generic) letters where the professor was clearly invested were a very, very strong sign and - if you were otherwise a compelling candidate on paper - would almost guarantee an interview in my CoA chambers (not 2/9/DC fwiw). Those letters were quite rare.

[Anonymous User]

You're getting good advice so all I'll add is that, unless it's a prestige play, there's no reason not to apply to the DNJ judges in Newark. That's an easy enough train commute to make daily from Manhattan.

Yeah the hardest thing about it is that many DNJ judges prefer strong ties to the insular New Jersey legal community but you might as well apply

[Anonymous User]

You're getting good advice so all I'll add is that, unless it's a prestige play, there's no reason not to apply to the DNJ judges in Newark. That's an easy enough train commute to make daily from Manhattan.

Yeah the hardest thing about it is that many DNJ judges prefer strong ties to the insular New Jersey legal community but you might as well apply

Yup, I've heard this as well, but I didn't know whether it also applied to the three new Biden appointees in Newark. It's probably worth blanketing the court, or at least those three on the possibility they'll look outside of NJ.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP. Not getting any bites. Any ideas or should I just keep at it.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP. Not getting any bites. Any ideas or should I just keep at it.

The vast majority of hiring is in June. Wait that window out before re-evaluating.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP. Not getting any bites. Any ideas or should I just keep at it.

The vast majority of hiring is in June. Wait that window out before re-evaluating.

Since I may be applying again even if I don't get anything, I can just resubmit apps when they post again right without mentioning I previously applied. Don't know what the standard protocol for this type of thing is.