Leaving BigFed for COA Forum

[learnedfan]

I recently started a BigFed position after a competitive district court clerkship (think DDC/SDNY/NDCAL etc.). I had been planning on using the DCt clerkship as a springboard for a COA, but then received an offer to join an agency in specializing in the legal area I want to practice in/did practice in during the short stint I spent in biglaw before clerking. I accepted because it is a dream position and I figured that given budget cuts they might not be hiring in a year. I am loving it so far, but I wonder if I am missing out if I don't clerk at the COA level in the next couple of years?

I am going to mostly be doing trial/investigation work, but I'm wondering if the COA would help with this by enabling me to better think about preserving issues for appeal. I also would be interested in being involved with the appeals of my matters, and am not sure if the COA would also be required for this. I'm not too concerned about the prestige bump, since I have the DCt and Honors/LR from a T14, but am also interested in if the COA would still be helpful in this regard? Finally, I'm also worried that I'm letting a generic idea of what I "should" do (i.e., the COA) uproot a stable and guaranteed spot in the government. If it's helpful, I know that many people leave to go in house/back to biglaw and then come back to the agency, though I'm not sure I want to go back to the private sector.

I know that the most helpful people on this question would be others at my agency, but I just started and feel that I'm too new to ask "hey, what would you guys think if I left for a year in the near future?" and so I'm turning to you all. Your advice is appreciated

[Anonymous User]

I recently started a BigFed position after a competitive district court clerkship (think DDC/SDNY/NDCAL etc.). I had been planning on using the DCt clerkship as a springboard for a COA, but then received an offer to join an agency in specializing in the legal area I want to practice in/did practice in during the short stint I spent in biglaw before clerking. I accepted because it is a dream position and I figured that given budget cuts they might not be hiring in a year. I am loving it so far, but I wonder if I am missing out if I don't clerk at the COA level in the next couple of years?

I am going to mostly be doing trial/investigation work, but I'm wondering if the COA would help with this by enabling me to better think about preserving issues for appeal. I also would be interested in being involved with the appeals of my matters, and am not sure if the COA would also be required for this. I'm not too concerned about the prestige bump, since I have the DCt and Honors/LR from a T14, but am also interested in if the COA would still be helpful in this regard? Finally, I'm also worried that I'm letting a generic idea of what I "should" do (i.e., the COA) uproot a stable and guaranteed spot in the government. If it's helpful, I know that many people leave to go in house/back to biglaw and then come back to the agency, though I'm not sure I want to go back to the private sector.

I know that the most helpful people on this question would be others at my agency, but I just started and feel that I'm too new to ask "hey, what would you guys think if I left for a year in the near future?" and so I'm turning to you all. Your advice is appreciated

I guess the big question is why would you leave if you’re happy where you are? You don’t seem to have a real reason other than you feel like you should. Does your agency handle its own appeals? If not, I think it’s a pretty clear no. I guess in theory you could have a leg up on helping on appeals if you had a COA but since you don’t already the cost of leaving and maybe not having a position at all to come back to seems way too high.

[namefromplace]

Yeah it doesn't seem like you have much reason to leave. You have your dream job and shiny credentials already. You have given two reasons for clerking again: 1. It can help you better know about preserving issues and 2. You want to help with appeals for your matters. Reason one isn't much of a reason--that's something you can learn at your job right now. As the other poster said, the importance of reason 2 depends on what BigFed agency you're in and the culture of the office, but a COA clerkship is by no means required to help with cases you worked on that go on appeal. Your assistance would likely be limited--for a variety of reasons, government attorneys rarely argue their own appeals anymore--but no one is going to refuse your help on an appeal because you didn't clerk on a COA.

In short, if you wanted to be a full-time appellate specialist, then sure, a COA clerkship would be worthwhile, both for the credential as well as the skills/insight you would gain over the year. But based on what you've said, it seems like you should stay in your current job.

[Anonymous User]

I recently started a BigFed position after a competitive district court clerkship (think DDC/SDNY/NDCAL etc.). I had been planning on using the DCt clerkship as a springboard for a COA, but then received an offer to join an agency in specializing in the legal area I want to practice in/did practice in during the short stint I spent in biglaw before clerking. I accepted because it is a dream position and I figured that given budget cuts they might not be hiring in a year. I am loving it so far, but I wonder if I am missing out if I don't clerk at the COA level in the next couple of years?

I am going to mostly be doing trial/investigation work, but I'm wondering if the COA would help with this by enabling me to better think about preserving issues for appeal. I also would be interested in being involved with the appeals of my matters, and am not sure if the COA would also be required for this. I'm not too concerned about the prestige bump, since I have the DCt and Honors/LR from a T14, but am also interested in if the COA would still be helpful in this regard? Finally, I'm also worried that I'm letting a generic idea of what I "should" do (i.e., the COA) uproot a stable and guaranteed spot in the government. If it's helpful, I know that many people leave to go in house/back to biglaw and then come back to the agency, though I'm not sure I want to go back to the private sector.

I know that the most helpful people on this question would be others at my agency, but I just started and feel that I'm too new to ask "hey, what would you guys think if I left for a year in the near future?" and so I'm turning to you all. Your advice is appreciated

I don't think you should worry about doing a COA. First, while I know you'd get plenty of other things out of it, I really don't think it's worth doing a COA just to learn about preserving issues for appeal. I also don't think leaving for a year to do a clerkship then coming back is really a thing for the feds - offboarding and onboarding is kind of a big pain in the ass, and in the same way you worried they might not be hiring in a year, they might not be able to re-hire you after.

My experience with the feds has been that you can be involved in appeals (esp of your own matters) without having done a COA clerkship. This can vary of course depending on your agency and hiring preferences and so on. I agree with the person who said that it would make sense if you wanted to do exclusively appellate work, but if you're doing trial/investigations with some appellate it's not necessary.

I have to ask - do you think you should do the COA because you think it's actually necessary, or do you feel like you should do it because you can't pass up the last clear-cut brass ring? I realize that may sound snarky and I don't mean to, it's a genuine question. Like if you're someone who went from excelling in UG to honors/LR at a T14 to biglaw to competitive district court clerkship to a dream federal job - do you simply feel obligated to try for another accomplishment? Because you really don't have to, and it kind of doesn't make sense to me that you would if you're currently loving your job. Clerkships have inherent value, but they're also at least partly a way to make yourself more competitive for the permanent job you really want. I don't mean to suggest that people should view them purely as a means to an end, just that equally, people shouldn't over-romanticize them.

Anyway, last thing is I get not asking your colleagues about leaving for a year, but you can definitely ask them about opportunities to do appellate work, and whether people handle their own appeals.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in bigfed right now and wish I could clerk again ....

COA is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and an extremely powerful signaling device that's worth pursuing. You'll be able to make your way back to bigfed easily.

Also, as long as you fulfil your probationary period, you should be fine ....

[Anonymous User]

There is virtually no circumstance in which clerking on a COA is the wrong choice unless your judge is physically, sexually, or verbally abusive. I'm as boring and risk-averse as they come, but this is maybe the most obvious applicability of "YOLO" in the legal field.

And FWIW none of that is based on career advancement/prestige. My clerkship was just baller af and it was awesome to work on such a broad variety of interesting cases and see your opinions make the news/get brought to SCOTUS/etc.

If you are genuinely concerned about not being able to return, and your current job is your highest priority, talk to your office about the logistics of appellate clerking while also making clear that you value your job over the hypothetical clerkship should they be at odds.

[learnedfan]

Thank you all for the advice. For now I am going to focus on killing it in my current role, and, after my probationary period ends (or once I make solid connections with people I trust at the agency) I will ask about the logistics and value of pursuing a COA clerkship, since those within my agency will be best able to advise me. My own initial impression is to agree with the first three commenters that the career boost would be somewhat marginal. My resume and work experience is a strong signal of my ability, and given the discussion above the more efficient route to working on appellate matters within my agency is simply asking about it. Part of the appeal of a COA is another brass ring, and that it feels so odd after the rat race of law school, OCI, and the clerkship hunt to not need to be applying for some new thing.

Once I fulfill my probationary period, does that make it easier to get rehired? I am somewhat skeptical that I could make my way back to bigfed "easily." I am only interested in the litigation positions within my niche, and whether or not there will be spots open to me will depend on the whims of congress. It was a long process to get this position (and from what I can tell I was extremely lucky, some people attempt to break into a government role in their niche for years); is it just that it becomes much easier to get into government when you have worked there before? Also, for the most recent commenter, I think that in a few years the chance to get to clerk again will be appealing. I enjoyed my district clerkship; however, my impression was that clerking at the district level is more fast-paced and often more complex, while COA clerkships can be slower paced and more political (i.e., drafting opinions with an eye towards securing votes from other judges). Did you enjoy your COA a lot more than your district clerkship? And you mention your opinion is not based on advancement/prestige, but did you find the clerkship has been helpful in these regards within your agency?

[Anonymous User]

Something to consider is that assuming you are competitive for a COA you can always just sort of keep in the back of your mind or in the chamber for a career pivot. I would stick with your BigFed job for a few years and then if you're like hey I want to do something else you can apply to the COA and then use it as a pivot. I agree with the commenters above—if you're already where you want to be, why go COA now?

[Anonymous User]

I'm in bigfed right now and wish I could clerk again ....

COA is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and an extremely powerful signaling device that's worth pursuing. You'll be able to make your way back to bigfed easily.

Also, as long as you fulfil your probationary period, you should be fine ....

What is a signaling device truly worth if you’re already in your dream job? I understand this in theory at the beginning of your career. I’d always advise a DC clerk to go straight to COA after if that opportunity arose. However, once you’re in the job you wanted (especially in a federal government job where there are less concerns of burn out) what is the point of another brass ring? I agree with the poster who said keep it in your back pocket if you end up wanting to pivot to a different space. However, I think there are very very few legal positions where a COA clerkship is required. The only one I can really think of is SG’s office, but even then, without a SC clerkship or some extremely awesome reputation at MJ, it’s such a crap shoot.

OP, if you’re happy stay. Getting into the federal government (especially in niche areas where hiring is not cyclical) is difficult. I wouldn’t leave and risk your position unless you knew you wanted to move to another agency or area and a COA would help you do that.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I’m the person who originally raised the “one more brass ring” argument. I don’t think that a COA is a *bad* idea in the sense that it’s ever going to *hurt* your career. If you want to do one and see what happens, that makes perfect sense. You might not stay on the path you planned up to this point, but it’s unlikely to turn out badly.

But I mostly wanted to give you permission not to do one (or at least not right away) if you don’t necessarily want to but feel like you should. Plenty of people don’t do COAs and have wonderful careers and lives.

I also think the person suggesting to keep it in your back pocket makes a lot of sense. I’m a diehard fed so I’m biased in favor of government work, but you may find longer term the job isn’t quite what you hoped it would be, or maybe things change under different administrations, who knows? Deciding not to apply now doesn’t mean you can’t apply later.

(I mean, I do think people can “age out” of clerking and that work experience isn’t as much of an advantage for most COAs as it can be for DCts. But in part that’s because the further you get in your permanent career, the less people want to upend their lives for a year. Your average biglaw partner, for instance, can’t easily take off a year to clerk, nor would the experience have quite the same meaning as earlier in a career. So while you may get to a point where clerking for a COA no longer seems realistic or feasible, if so, it’s because you’ve become well-established in your career without one and that’s completely fine.)

[learnedfan]

Yeah, I’m the person who originally raised the “one more brass ring” argument. I don’t think that a COA is a *bad* idea in the sense that it’s ever going to *hurt* your career. If you want to do one and see what happens, that makes perfect sense. You might not stay on the path you planned up to this point, but it’s unlikely to turn out badly.

But I mostly wanted to give you permission not to do one (or at least not right away) if you don’t necessarily want to but feel like you should. Plenty of people don’t do COAs and have wonderful careers and lives.

I also think the person suggesting to keep it in your back pocket makes a lot of sense. I’m a diehard fed so I’m biased in favor of government work, but you may find longer term the job isn’t quite what you hoped it would be, or maybe things change under different administrations, who knows? Deciding not to apply now doesn’t mean you can’t apply later.

(I mean, I do think people can “age out” of clerking and that work experience isn’t as much of an advantage for most COAs as it can be for DCts. But in part that’s because the further you get in your permanent career, the less people want to upend their lives for a year. Your average biglaw partner, for instance, can’t easily take off a year to clerk, nor would the experience have quite the same meaning as earlier in a career. So while you may get to a point where clerking for a COA no longer seems realistic or feasible, if so, it’s because you’ve become well-established in your career without one and that’s completely fine.)

I agree with this thoughtful advice. To clarify, my default position going forward is not to pursue another clerkship, but I am open to changing that position if (1) my job preferences shift in the next couple of years or (2) my colleagues at the agency inform me that a COA clerkship is worth doing and/or that it will be easy to get rehired after leaving to clerk. Thanks, all!