How does entering a PhD program right after law school look like for clerkship? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

I know of a few people who have managed to secure great clerkships in this situation, but don't think there's a universal view on it. My judge loved people with PhDs and treated certain fields as a major plus factor, but I think other people treat them as sort of a soft skill depending on your field of study.

There are firms that will be skeptical of your intentions if you apply fresh off a PhD program. I had a few classmates who are really smart, but struggled during OCI to convince firms they really wanted to practice law because they had done a PhD before law school. I imagine you'll face the same issue -- maybe even a little worse -- if you go through a PhD after finishing law school.

If you're planning to enter the legal academic market, then you might consider applying for teaching fellowships after you are done clerking. In that case, your PhD will be a major plus.

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

I know of a few people who have managed to secure great clerkships in this situation, but don't think there's a universal view on it. My judge loved people with PhDs and treated certain fields as a major plus factor, but I think other people treat them as sort of a soft skill depending on your field of study.

There are firms that will be skeptical of your intentions if you apply fresh off a PhD program. I had a few classmates who are really smart, but struggled during OCI to convince firms they really wanted to practice law because they had done a PhD before law school. I imagine you'll face the same issue -- maybe even a little worse -- if you go through a PhD after finishing law school.

If you're planning to enter the legal academic market, then you might consider applying for teaching fellowships after you are done clerking. In that case, your PhD will be a major plus.

OP here. Is your judge appellate or district? I assume that appellate judge are more welcoming to PhDs w/o work experience. Is that right?

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

I don't think enough people go JD --> PhD --> clerkship to say whether the PhD is or isn't a bonus; it will likely depend on the judge. Some judges are pro-academia and will like having a PhD work for them, some won't care either way, some will prefer applicants who plan to practice. It will probably also depend on what field your PhD is in. It's true that some judges prefer applicants with work experience, but I don't know that lack of work experience would be the issue exactly, as traditionally clerks don't have any work experience. It will be more that you have been focusing on non-legal stuff.

I do think that firms will tend to be wary of someone applying for jobs out of a PhD program, as you will look like a flight risk to academia, and (to the extent it matters) your legal knowledge may look stale (again, this may depend on the PhD field). Clerking first will probably help with any concerns that your legal knowledge is stale, but probably won't assuage concerns about being an academic flight risk. However, if you clerk your judge may be able to help connect you with a job.

I know someone who went JD --> PhD --> DOJ honors, but they had ridiculously top qualifications in both their JD and PhD. They also didn't finish the PhD until after they started working for DOJ (like a few years after), which I don't think would be feasible with a firm. I think the key things that helped them (apart from the stellar pedigree) were 1) their PhD research was in the area of their legal practice - not in a way that was directly applicable, but it at least showed that they were someone who could completely geek out about the mission of the job; that kind of dedication can be really helpful for government work, and 2) for various reasons, on paper they had a relatively short gap between the JD and applying for Honors (they took leave in the middle of their JD program to do their PhD work, so delayed their graduation date until they were already partly done with the PhD). So I think the takeaways are that you'd want the PhD to relate as much as possible to whatever legal practice you'd be going into, and to get through it as quickly as possible.

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

I don't think enough people go JD --> PhD --> clerkship to say whether the PhD is or isn't a bonus; it will likely depend on the judge. Some judges are pro-academia and will like having a PhD work for them, some won't care either way, some will prefer applicants who plan to practice. It will probably also depend on what field your PhD is in. It's true that some judges prefer applicants with work experience, but I don't know that lack of work experience would be the issue exactly, as traditionally clerks don't have any work experience. It will be more that you have been focusing on non-legal stuff.

I do think that firms will tend to be wary of someone applying for jobs out of a PhD program, as you will look like a flight risk to academia, and (to the extent it matters) your legal knowledge may look stale (again, this may depend on the PhD field). Clerking first will probably help with any concerns that your legal knowledge is stale, but probably won't assuage concerns about being an academic flight risk. However, if you clerk your judge may be able to help connect you with a job.

I know someone who went JD --> PhD --> DOJ honors, but they had ridiculously top qualifications in both their JD and PhD. They also didn't finish the PhD until after they started working for DOJ (like a few years after), which I don't think would be feasible with a firm. I think the key things that helped them (apart from the stellar pedigree) were 1) their PhD research was in the area of their legal practice - not in a way that was directly applicable, but it at least showed that they were someone who could completely geek out about the mission of the job; that kind of dedication can be really helpful for government work, and 2) for various reasons, on paper they had a relatively short gap between the JD and applying for Honors (they took leave in the middle of their JD program to do their PhD work, so delayed their graduation date until they were already partly done with the PhD). So I think the takeaways are that you'd want the PhD to relate as much as possible to whatever legal practice you'd be going into, and to get through it as quickly as possible.

Thanks for the info! Government surely is an alternative career path I may want to consider if academia doesn't work out. But I don't think someone who does separate JD and PhD programs, as opposed to the joint JD/PhD program, is eligible to apply for DOJ Honors, and PhD program is not a eligibility-preserving program anyways. (Based on your info your friend is a joint candidate, am I right?)

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

I don't think enough people go JD --> PhD --> clerkship to say whether the PhD is or isn't a bonus; it will likely depend on the judge. Some judges are pro-academia and will like having a PhD work for them, some won't care either way, some will prefer applicants who plan to practice. It will probably also depend on what field your PhD is in. It's true that some judges prefer applicants with work experience, but I don't know that lack of work experience would be the issue exactly, as traditionally clerks don't have any work experience. It will be more that you have been focusing on non-legal stuff.

I do think that firms will tend to be wary of someone applying for jobs out of a PhD program, as you will look like a flight risk to academia, and (to the extent it matters) your legal knowledge may look stale (again, this may depend on the PhD field). Clerking first will probably help with any concerns that your legal knowledge is stale, but probably won't assuage concerns about being an academic flight risk. However, if you clerk your judge may be able to help connect you with a job.

I know someone who went JD --> PhD --> DOJ honors, but they had ridiculously top qualifications in both their JD and PhD. They also didn't finish the PhD until after they started working for DOJ (like a few years after), which I don't think would be feasible with a firm. I think the key things that helped them (apart from the stellar pedigree) were 1) their PhD research was in the area of their legal practice - not in a way that was directly applicable, but it at least showed that they were someone who could completely geek out about the mission of the job; that kind of dedication can be really helpful for government work, and 2) for various reasons, on paper they had a relatively short gap between the JD and applying for Honors (they took leave in the middle of their JD program to do their PhD work, so delayed their graduation date until they were already partly done with the PhD). So I think the takeaways are that you'd want the PhD to relate as much as possible to whatever legal practice you'd be going into, and to get through it as quickly as possible.

Thanks for the info! Government surely is an alternative career path I may want to consider if academia doesn't work out. But I don't think someone who does separate JD and PhD programs, as opposed to the joint JD/PhD program, is eligible to apply for DOJ Honors, and PhD program is not a eligibility-preserving program anyways. (Based on your info your friend is a joint candidate, am I right?)

Yes, I think they’ve narrowed the criteria for which graduate programs maintain your eligibility (pretty sure they used to include PhD programs, not just LLMs). I don’t know if this person was officially a joint candidate, or whether they could have arranged the same kind of timing for a program at another school, but I’m sure doing both degrees at the same school made it easier regardless.

My point was meant to be more about why this person was an appealing candidate for a government job rather than to suggest going the honors route, though admittedly without other practice experience it would be tougher to get a non-honors gig.

[Anonymous User]

I agree with everything that's been said re the contingent nature of PhD and clerkship hiring.

I'll just add that if academia is truly the goal, I suggest you consider this question with that in mind. In other words, what is the hiring committee's perspective on this? However you sequence clerking/firm/DOJ/PhD, what is the narrative that explains the path you took and how it supports your motivations to be an academic and your ability to make significant contributions in your field?

I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer, there's just your answer. But you might think through the different hypothetical pathways you might take to arriving on the law teaching market and how each would fit into a cohesive story to professors. Again, this assumes that that is the ultimate goal.

One narrower thought: depending on your financial situation, you might work at the firm for a year or two two pay down/off your loans and make the goal of working on one paper or essay to use as a writing sample for your PhD and to stay connected to your research. Then move into the PhD and once you're ABD apply for clerkships. The narrative there might be that you worked at the firm to manage your debt load before going back to school and then decided to clerk after the program to help bring your field (history, econ, psych, etc.) back into law. (Some faculties--to be sure not all--are turning away from the PhD obsession of the last 10-15 years because, in their view, many JD/PhDs are, e.g., economists who touch on law rather than the reverse and they're looking for legal scholars.) Of course, if you're an interdisciplinary scholar and your work is more "and ___" versus "law and ___" then maybe this framing doesn't work for you, but it's just a suggestion.

Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

I am a rising 3L who did not get luck this cycle. Currently working at a general NYC big law as a summer associate, but long term career is academia. Struggling between applying for PhD right away in 3L fall semester and applying after graduation (which means working for a year).

Suppose I enter a prestigeous PhD program right after law school and then apply for clerkship, how will that look like? Is PhD a bonus for clerkship, or does lack of WE harm my application? Another question: assuming that I enter a PhD program, then clerk, and want to find other post-clerkship legal jobs instead, how will that look like?

I know of a few people who have managed to secure great clerkships in this situation, but don't think there's a universal view on it. My judge loved people with PhDs and treated certain fields as a major plus factor, but I think other people treat them as sort of a soft skill depending on your field of study.

There are firms that will be skeptical of your intentions if you apply fresh off a PhD program. I had a few classmates who are really smart, but struggled during OCI to convince firms they really wanted to practice law because they had done a PhD before law school. I imagine you'll face the same issue -- maybe even a little worse -- if you go through a PhD after finishing law school.

If you're planning to enter the legal academic market, then you might consider applying for teaching fellowships after you are done clerking. In that case, your PhD will be a major plus.

OP here. Is your judge appellate or district? I assume that appellate judge are more welcoming to PhDs w/o work experience. Is that right?

Not the above poster but I’ll give a bit of a different view. I think this would be a significant detriment on your application for a lot of judges because of the timing. Most people I know with PhDs got them before or concurrently with their law degree, not in standalone PhD programs after law school. Frankly, I think the vast majority of district judges would hardly even consider an applicant with no work experience coming from a PhD program. My appellate judge also would’ve immediately trashed this type of app because she had no interest in academia and would’ve assumed you don’t want to be a lawyer.

I think you would really need to focus on judges who care about academia and who were professors.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with all of this. The PhD suggests a desire to enter academia and not to practice. This will be a plus for judges who actively look to hire future academics (a judge's own background in academia, or heavy publication history, will usually indicate this) and a minus for judges who want to hire practicing lawyers. If you build your judge list with this in mind, the PhD will help.