Annoying question about weighing latin honors Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any idea how judges look at latin honors when assessing post-graduate applicants from schools that don't provide GPAs?

For context, recently graduated from HLS and missed magna by less than .003 [kill me, but line has gotta be somewhere I guess]. At a school that has conventional GPA/class ranking policies, I could indicate this by putting my GPA/ranking cutoff on my resume. HLS does not provide GPAs or track class rank outside of latin honors, so that's not an option.

I imagine judges are able to gauge applicant strength without a ton of deference to latin honors when there are GPAs involved, but an H/P transcript is pretty inscrutable. The difference between a 3.99 [top of cum laude] and a 3.70 [bottom of cum laude] is not really that visible [~3 Ps over 3 years]

So, I guess 2 questions:

(1) Are judges likely to consider applicants with the same latin honor interchangeably.

(2) If so, any advice on non-weird/strange ways to overcome this assumption

[Anonymous User]

Sorry this does not respond to your question…I just wonder if you’d mind sharing what the cutoff for magna is for this year?

[Pneumonia]

You can calculate your own GPA and put it in your application materials, no? Just do that. Judges are very familiar with HLS's grading system. And they will look at your transcript (especially if you put your GPA on your resume).

[Anonymous User]

You can calculate your own GPA and put it in your application materials, no? Just do that. Judges are very familiar with HLS's grading system. And they will look at your transcript (especially if you put your GPA on your resume).

Yeah, I could but I figured that since the school really discourages doing that and it would not be "official" [since self calculated] that it comes across weird/unusual and ends up raising red flags.

Totally agree with judges being familiar with the grading system, but could imagine them sorting first on latin honors because there isn't time to go through everyone's transcripts when there are hundreds of apps to review

[breathedah]

The move, in my mind, is to have a recommender include that fact in their letter. I read a fair number of LORs where the recommender would contextualize an otherwise hard to interpret transcript. That won't help you with judges using magna as a cutoff, but I don't think there's much you can do about that. The reality is that all of the plan applicants don't have Latin honors, either, so there's a good chance the judge's clerks would rank-order based on net DS-P anyways.

[Pneumonia]

You can calculate your own GPA and put it in your application materials, no? Just do that. Judges are very familiar with HLS's grading system. And they will look at your transcript (especially if you put your GPA on your resume).

Yeah, I could but I figured that since the school really discourages doing that and it would not be "official" [since self calculated] that it comes across weird/unusual and ends up raising red flags.

Totally agree with judges being familiar with the grading system, but could imagine them sorting first on latin honors because there isn't time to go through everyone's transcripts when there are hundreds of apps to review

I think you're being too deferential to the school. Judges (and clerks) are reviewing your application, not HLS. Just make triple-sure your calculation is correct, and put it on your resume. In your specific circumstance, I might even consider omitting latin honors from your resume (since it would be cum laude but not magna). In either case, you should definitely put the numerical GPA. There aren't many judges who require magna grades from HLS. Of the ones that do, I think all of them would make an exception for you--but only IF you give them a resason to look at your transcript.

Also, and I can't emphasize this enough, HLS and you do not have the same interests, so you should not be giving any weight to what they prefer or discourage.

[Anonymous User]

The move, in my mind, is to have a recommender include that fact in their letter. I read a fair number of LORs where the recommender would contextualize an otherwise hard to interpret transcript. That won't help you with judges using magna as a cutoff, but I don't think there's much you can do about that. The reality is that all of the plan applicants don't have Latin honors, either, so there's a good chance the judge's clerks would rank-order based on net DS-P anyways.

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that! My DS/P nets out in absolute number but the credit numbers don't net out, so maybe that + a tangential mention would be a good way to handle it.

Totally agree about HLS and I not totally having the same incentive structure, I'm apprehensive largely because that seems irregular based on how everyone older I know how approached grades/transcripts. Don't know if judges who are well versed in HLS applicants would be put off by someone with a GPA on their resume

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

I agree with this.

[Pneumonia]

DSs on your resume is a good idea. I also went to HLS, clerked for a semi-feeder, and evaluated lots of resumes. The original concern, as I understood it, was that judges consign OP to the "no" pile based on lack of magna. Any judges who do that (and there are some who do) are going to do it BEFORE reading recommendation letters. So having recommenders add color will do nothing to help the problem OP is worried about.

It is true that most HLS applicants don't include GPAs. But most of them also didn't miss magna by a few thousandths of a point. I didn't mean self-calculation is a good idea in the abstract. Instead, the question was how to hook someone into reading beyond the resume itself. The only way to do that (given the constraints OP provided), is to communicate that your grades are magna-level. And the only way to do THAT is to either put your GPA or list your DSs.

I think OP has around 3 DSs given the GPA and given that OP also has 3 Ps. Three DSs is great, but again, the universe we're discussing here is "judges who require magna." For judges in that range, 3 DSs isn't all that special. It might not be enough to get them to look beyond your resume. Thus my recommendation to use GPA (only for the judges you're worried about, though). And again, to be very clear, the worry I'm responding to is the idea that OP's app will go into the trash based on lack of magna. So that's the baseline--getting rejected. As an HLS grad reviewing apps, I would immediately understand your reasoning. Everyone knows the general cutoffs for magna. I agree it would be very weird to see a self-calculated 3.8 or whatever, though.

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

Yeah, this is what I figured/was worried about! All my DSs are on my resume [listed with my other law school prizes and shit]. I worked pretty closely with a few professors throughout and they would definitely be open to a conversation about including that in the LOR.

From the clerk side, any perspective on how you typically look at latin honors for HLS applicants? Are you blanket cropping on honors or are you parsing the individual applicant transcripts to ID where they fall within the larger categories.

[Anonymous User]

DSs on your resume is a good idea. I also went to HLS, clerked for a semi-feeder, and evaluated lots of resumes. The original concern, as I understood it, was that judges consign OP to the "no" pile based on lack of magna. Any judges who do that (and there are some who do) are going to do it BEFORE reading recommendation letters. So having recommenders add color will do nothing to help the problem OP is worried about.

It is true that most HLS applicants don't include GPAs. But most of them also didn't miss magna by a few thousandths of a point. I didn't mean self-calculation is a good idea in the abstract. Instead, the question was how to hook someone into reading beyond the resume itself. The only way to do that (given the constraints OP provided), is to communicate that your grades are magna-level. And the only way to do THAT is to either put your GPA or list your DSs.

I think OP has around 3 DSs given the GPA and given that OP also has 3 Ps. Three DSs is great, but again, the universe we're discussing here is "judges who require magna." For judges in that range, 3 DSs isn't all that special. It might not be enough to get them to look beyond your resume. Thus my recommendation to use GPA (only for the judges you're worried about, though). And again, to be very clear, the worry I'm responding to is the idea that OP's app will go into the trash based on lack of magna. So that's the baseline--getting rejected. As an HLS grad reviewing apps, I would immediately understand your reasoning. Everyone knows the general cutoffs for magna. I agree it would be very weird to see a self-calculated 3.8 or whatever, though.

I'm surprise to hear that about number of DSs! With magna sitting at a 4.0, I would think that most of the magna apps would have a near equal number of DS and P and that it would register similarly whether that was 3 DS + 3 P or 5 DS + 5 P.

Maybe it's more common than I realize for people to end up with like 4.3s, but most the friends I have who hit magna just got across the line with a 4.00! But, then again, I guess the universe of "judges who want magna" is much more limited and can be very selective.

Perhaps I'm a bit dumb, but we get pretty bad counseling on this stuff - is "judges who require magna" basically equivalent with feeders + CA2/DCC

[Anonymous User]

If it's well known that a school doesn't calculate GPAs and I see someone list a GPA, that's a red flag. I can understand the frustration with missing Magna by a tiny fraction, but there can't be that many judges who would immediately reject a Cum Laude HLS grad but not a Magna HLS grad (understanding that our concern here seems to be about getting automatically dinged before they even take a second look at you). In which case, I think you just bite the bullet that those judges won't take a look—which isn't all that bad given that we're all getting dinged for all sorts of reasons, and honors at HLS is nothing to be ashamed about. I hate to draw the comparison, but self-calculating here feels like having a law school GPA addendum to explain why you have a 3.80 GPA and not a 3.90 when the school's median is at a 3.85. Having a recommender contextualize in a letter seems a much better strategy.

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

Yeah, this is what I figured/was worried about! All my DSs are on my resume [listed with my other law school prizes and shit]. I worked pretty closely with a few professors throughout and they would definitely be open to a conversation about including that in the LOR.

From the clerk side, any perspective on how you typically look at latin honors for HLS applicants? Are you blanket cropping on honors or are you parsing the individual applicant transcripts to ID where they fall within the larger categories.

My sense is that most chambers will read (or at least skim) your entire application if you graduated with latin honors from HLS. The universe of judges who (a) won't consider cum laude applicants from HLS and (b) hire clerks who have already graduated is very small. In fact, if you exclude SCOTUS/2/9/DC, you could probably count the number of such judges on one hand.

[Anonymous User]

Within the universe of judges who only look at magna from HLS, a 1:1 DS:P ratio probably isn't going to cut it anyway. So I dont think you are missing out on all that much . I think putting a GPA from HLS is more awkward, especially given the weird GPS formula they use (weighted by year, not by number of credits), which will make it look like you didn't calculate it right if someone tries to check, which would be a huge red flag.

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

Yeah, this is what I figured/was worried about! All my DSs are on my resume [listed with my other law school prizes and shit]. I worked pretty closely with a few professors throughout and they would definitely be open to a conversation about including that in the LOR.

From the clerk side, any perspective on how you typically look at latin honors for HLS applicants? Are you blanket cropping on honors or are you parsing the individual applicant transcripts to ID where they fall within the larger categories.

My sense is that most chambers will read (or at least skim) your entire application if you graduated with latin honors from HLS. The universe of judges who (a) won't consider cum laude applicants from HLS and (b) hire clerks who have already graduated is very small. In fact, if you exclude SCOTUS/2/9/DC, you could probably count the number of such judges on one hand.

[OP]

I was really hoping to eventually clerk CA2 so that is kinda what I was worried about hearing, but fair!

Also, agree on the wonky calculation methods as another reason to avoid including. I'm definitely not going to do it! Very open to other tactical ways to telegraph that I was close but no cigar, but wondering if that's kinda just overdoing it and I should let the grades speak for themselves.

Surprised to hear that 1:1 DS:P is not going to keep people in the game for at least some judges on competitive circuits, I really wish the school gave us better info on this stuff!

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

Yeah, this is what I figured/was worried about! All my DSs are on my resume [listed with my other law school prizes and shit]. I worked pretty closely with a few professors throughout and they would definitely be open to a conversation about including that in the LOR.

From the clerk side, any perspective on how you typically look at latin honors for HLS applicants? Are you blanket cropping on honors or are you parsing the individual applicant transcripts to ID where they fall within the larger categories.

My sense is that most chambers will read (or at least skim) your entire application if you graduated with latin honors from HLS. The universe of judges who (a) won't consider cum laude applicants from HLS and (b) hire clerks who have already graduated is very small. In fact, if you exclude SCOTUS/2/9/DC, you could probably count the number of such judges on one hand.

[OP]

I was really hoping to eventually clerk CA2 so that is kinda what I was worried about hearing, but fair!

Also, agree on the wonky calculation methods as another reason to avoid including. I'm definitely not going to do it! Very open to other tactical ways to telegraph that I was close but no cigar, but wondering if that's kinda just overdoing it and I should let the grades speak for themselves.

Surprised to hear that 1:1 DS:P is not going to keep people in the game for at least some judges on competitive circuits, I really wish the school gave us better info on this stuff!

To be clear, there are Second Circuit (and Ninth Circuit, and DC Circuit) judges who hire cum laude HLS grads. You just are going to have a tough time with feeders and other judges who fashion themselves grade snobs.

[Anonymous User]

Only cum laude and not magna cum laude at Harvard Law? With grades like that, you might BECOME a Supreme Court justice (see Katanji Brown Jackson and Neil Gorsuch).

[Anonymous User]

HLS grad who clerked and evaluates resumes. Don’t calculate your own GPA. No one from HLS does it and you will stick out like a sore thumb, especially to judges whose clerks went to HLS. The suggestion about getting a recommender to put your grades in context is good, and I would also make sure to list all your DS grades on your resume.

Yeah, this is what I figured/was worried about! All my DSs are on my resume [listed with my other law school prizes and shit]. I worked pretty closely with a few professors throughout and they would definitely be open to a conversation about including that in the LOR.

From the clerk side, any perspective on how you typically look at latin honors for HLS applicants? Are you blanket cropping on honors or are you parsing the individual applicant transcripts to ID where they fall within the larger categories.

My sense is that most chambers will read (or at least skim) your entire application if you graduated with latin honors from HLS. The universe of judges who (a) won't consider cum laude applicants from HLS and (b) hire clerks who have already graduated is very small. In fact, if you exclude SCOTUS/2/9/DC, you could probably count the number of such judges on one hand.

[OP]

I was really hoping to eventually clerk CA2 so that is kinda what I was worried about hearing, but fair!

Also, agree on the wonky calculation methods as another reason to avoid including. I'm definitely not going to do it! Very open to other tactical ways to telegraph that I was close but no cigar, but wondering if that's kinda just overdoing it and I should let the grades speak for themselves.

Surprised to hear that 1:1 DS:P is not going to keep people in the game for at least some judges on competitive circuits, I really wish the school gave us better info on this stuff!

To be clear, there are Second Circuit (and Ninth Circuit, and DC Circuit) judges who hire cum laude HLS grads. You just are going to have a tough time with feeders and other judges who fashion themselves grade snobs.

Any recommendations on resources for which judges fashion selves as grade snobs even at top schools? Best I've been able to do is peruse the different circuit threads here, but the advice all seems to boil down to "everyone is a grade snob"