Fed Claims vs Dist Court vs Give Up? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to get some input on a situation I'm facing here because this board has been very useful to me in the past. So for basic background info I'm a 2L, top 15-20% at an MVPB with a V10 SA lined up. Don't like to include that information to brag (not like it's a particularly special resume) but just to give some context (so you all can ruthlessly evaluate me as a human being lol). I came into law school with the dream of doing a district clerkship and then litigating for a career, but I'm no longer sure if that is going to happen. I am about to be 0/2 on district court interviews, as I was rejected from a position I interviewed for last summer and have not heard back from another interview two weeks ago, so assuming that was a no. I know it's not a huge deal, but that has really stung because on the last interview I had to spend/waste almost $1,000 of my own very very limited money due to flight cancellations etc. I'm just starting to hate this process.

Reason I am asking this question is because I have another interview with the court of federal claims coming up next week, and I've been hurt by the comments of several people saying it is "less PRESTIGIOUS" than a district court clerkship even outside of a major city. Essentially what I am trying to figure out is would this clerkship be "worth it" - should I keep trying for a district, or just give up, take the firm money and run? It's just so frustrating because I feel like I'm potentially "hireable" at any district court outside of SDNY and DDC, but there are just so many vagaries and weirdness in this process that it is tough to know how to proceed. I obviously love the federal claims court's location and the judge seems interesting to work for, but with the comments certain people have made If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be very interested to hear them. Thank you!

[Anonymous User]

why not clerk for a magistrate judge in the sdny or ddc, and then use that as a strong stepping stone for a district court clerkship? I know quite a few top 10-25%ers at NYU who were able to turn an sdny/edny MJ clerkship into a district court clerkship.

federal claims is fine, in the sense that you're actually drafting opinions resolving often interesting cases.

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm. I'm struggling and despondent. I think I can get bigfed, which is great in the long run, but I'm going to miss out on a fuckload of money, which I need to pay off my loans.

You're really, really better off spending two or three years at the V10 and then clerking.

[Anonymous User]

why not clerk for a magistrate judge in the sdny or ddc, and then use that as a strong stepping stone for a district court clerkship? I know quite a few top 10-25%ers at NYU who were able to turn an sdny/edny MJ clerkship into a district court clerkship.

federal claims is fine, in the sense that you're actually drafting opinions resolving often interesting cases.

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm. I'm struggling and despondent. I think I can get bigfed, which is great in the long run, but I'm going to miss out on a fuckload of money, which I need to pay off my loans.

You're really, really better off spending two or three years at the V10 and then clerking.

Oh nice, thank you for the great words of wisdom. And yeah the money thing is really why I'm a little resistant to doing a magistrate clerkship then doing a district clerkship - I don't really want to forego another year of BigLaw salary for another besides a truly crazy opportunity, like dist --> appellate or something like that.

Have definitely found those junior litigation jobs extremely tough to get. My firm this summer is rotating me between general lit and another, more "transactional-y" group, but it's clear to me they don't really want me in the litigation group.

Thanks for the kind words re: fed claims and regarding spending a couple years at the firm first. I guess the big reason I want to get a fed clerkship is that it would let me do the litigation type stuff I'm interested in. Thank you so much for the helpful advice!!

[thepsychedelic]

Just wanted to get some input on a situation I'm facing here because this board has been very useful to me in the past. So for basic background info I'm a 2L, top 15-20% at an MVPB with a V10 SA lined up. Don't like to include that information to brag (not like it's a particularly special resume) but just to give some context (so you all can ruthlessly evaluate me as a human being lol). I came into law school with the dream of doing a district clerkship and then litigating for a career, but I'm no longer sure if that is going to happen. I am about to be 0/2 on district court interviews, as I was rejected from a position I interviewed for last summer and have not heard back from another interview two weeks ago, so assuming that was a no. I know it's not a huge deal, but that has really stung because on the last interview I had to spend/waste almost $1,000 of my own very very limited money due to flight cancellations etc. I'm just starting to hate this process.

Reason I am asking this question is because I have another interview with the court of federal claims coming up next week, and I've been hurt by the comments of several people saying it is "less PRESTIGIOUS" than a district court clerkship even outside of a major city. Essentially what I am trying to figure out is would this clerkship be "worth it" - should I keep trying for a district, or just give up, take the firm money and run? It's just so frustrating because I feel like I'm potentially "hireable" at any district court outside of SDNY and DDC, but there are just so many vagaries and weirdness in this process that it is tough to know how to proceed. I obviously love the federal claims court's location and the judge seems interesting to work for, but with the comments certain people have made If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be very interested to hear them. Thank you!

You're a 2L, so the plan hasn't even opened for you, right? I feel like it's strange to give up now when there are a lot of judges that haven't even looked at applications from 2Ls yet because they're adhering to the plan. I would at least wait until after June to start thinking about whether you'll get a clerkship or not. The fact that you've gotten 2 off-plan interviews already makes me think you'd be pretty competitive, especially if you get your professors to call.

[Anonymous User]

You're a 2L, so the plan hasn't even opened for you, right? I feel like it's strange to give up now when there are a lot of judges that haven't even looked at applications from 2Ls yet because they're adhering to the plan. I would at least wait until after June to start thinking about whether you'll get a clerkship or not. The fact that you've gotten 2 off-plan interviews already makes me think you'd be pretty competitive, especially if you get your professors to call.

Yep, plan hasn't even opened for me yet. And so of the two district court interviews, one was from a professor call (which makes the rejection sting even more lol) and the other was just from getting randomly pulled from the pile. The fed claims interview is also without a call, just getting pulled from pile.

Thanks a bunch for the kind words. I guess the only thing that drives my worry here is I've gone pretty "fed-soccy" at law school and thus am worried 1) that my best opportunities were all off-plan, I'm about to miss that boat, and that "on plan" judges will ding me for some of the conservative stuff on my resume 2) I'm just around a lot of hardo mega-gunner types that make me feel like a loser for not having an appellate clerkship lined up already, let alone repeatedly whiffing on my district interviews.

I don't know, I think I'm just a weak interviewer/job finder, which manifested itself at OCI too as my screener conversion rate was AWFUL, so that all makes me more nervous about all that. But once again, thank you very much for the kind words and guidance.

[nixy]

I don’t think that getting dinged after your prof called should sting more than anything else - a prof gets you pulled from a pile but then it’s still going to be based on your interview; the edge is getting to the interview.

I agree that it’s too early to give up, regardless of going “fed soc.” Politics doesn’t play a role in the VAST majority of hirings, especially outside of feeder types. I don’t think at all that there’s a clear dichotomy, that all good conservative leaning opportunities are pre-plan and all the opportunities on the plan will ding someone who has any conservative stuff on their resume. It’s just not that black and white.

And you just have to ignore the mega gunners, most people aren’t in their position and that doesn’t make you a loser.

Another possibility is working for a year or so and applying again later. It’s a pain in the ass, I know, but it can make you a more competitive candidate (and the super annoying costs of travel aren’t so burdensome). But I also think it’s too early to give up on applications now.

(I don’t have much context for your question about the court of Federal Claims, I’m afraid. I do tend to think people here tend to define prestigious very narrowly and it’s not worth getting so caught up in it, but I also don’t know enough about the clerkship to say here.)

[Anonymous User]

I don’t think that getting dinged after your prof called should sting more than anything else - a prof gets you pulled from a pile but then it’s still going to be based on your interview; the edge is getting to the interview.

I agree that it’s too early to give up, regardless of going “fed soc.” Politics doesn’t play a role in the VAST majority of hirings, especially outside of feeder types. I don’t think at all that there’s a clear dichotomy, that all good conservative leaning opportunities are pre-plan and all the opportunities on the plan will ding someone who has any conservative stuff on their resume. It’s just not that black and white.

And you just have to ignore the mega gunners, most people aren’t in their position and that doesn’t make you a loser.

Another possibility is working for a year or so and applying again later. It’s a pain in the ass, I know, but it can make you a more competitive candidate (and the super annoying costs of travel aren’t so burdensome). But I also think it’s too early to give up on applications now.

(I don’t have much context for your question about the court of Federal Claims, I’m afraid. I do tend to think people here tend to define prestigious very narrowly and it’s not worth getting so caught up in it, but I also don’t know enough about the clerkship to say here.)

Thanks a bunch for the response, especially the clarification re: plan vs. not plan judges. And yeah it just stings pretty bad to have a favorite professor get me an interview, miss multiple days of class flying out to the other end of the country, spending money I don't have, and then...nothing.

And yeah, I mostly do ignore the mega-gunners it's just unfortunate that because of who I've chosen to associate myself with in law school I'm around them a lot, and they're some of my best friends. I didn't come into law school like "I must be an appellate litigator! I must secure an appellate clerkship" and legitimately feel 0 upset over the fact that I'm not, as it currently stands, going to get one of those jobs. It just really stinks that I'm around lots of people who got an appellate gig with their first interview during the 1L summer and I'm out here spending thousands of dollars I do not have to spend on flunking district interviews. Idk I'm just pretty convinced I'm a weak interviewer based on OCI (sub-10% screener conversion rate!) and clerkship interview performance and it just rattles me a little bit.

If I have to bite the bullet and work first that's fine, especially if it can get me somewhere "better" location-wise than I have currently been getting - my past interviews have been in decent districts, but relatively tiny towns within them far from the urban center. Would just feel a little embarrassed to strike out, but that's life!

And yeah, I don't really care about PRESTIGE as far as it is defined in super-hardcore law student circles, just want to make sure big firms look on it well.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks a bunch for the response, especially the clarification re: plan vs. not plan judges. And yeah it just stings pretty bad to have a favorite professor get me an interview, miss multiple days of class flying out to the other end of the country, spending money I don't have, and then...nothing.

And yeah, I mostly do ignore the mega-gunners it's just unfortunate that because of who I've chosen to associate myself with in law school I'm around them a lot, and they're some of my best friends. I didn't come into law school like "I must be an appellate litigator! I must secure an appellate clerkship" and legitimately feel 0 upset over the fact that I'm not, as it currently stands, going to get one of those jobs. It just really stinks that I'm around lots of people who got an appellate gig with their first interview during the 1L summer and I'm out here spending thousands of dollars I do not have to spend on flunking district interviews. Idk I'm just pretty convinced I'm a weak interviewer based on OCI (sub-10% screener conversion rate!) and clerkship interview performance and it just rattles me a little bit.

If I have to bite the bullet and work first that's fine, especially if it can get me somewhere "better" location-wise than I have currently been getting - my past interviews have been in decent districts, but relatively tiny towns within them far from the urban center. Would just feel a little embarrassed to strike out, but that's life!

And yeah, I don't really care about PRESTIGE as far as it is defined in super-hardcore law student circles, just want to make sure big firms look on it well.

I work at a boutique litigation firm and for what it's worth, I don't know that a court of Federal Claims clerkship would move the needle. If your goal is to litigate and you want to go to a lit boutique that only hires clerks, then you would be better off holding out for a district court clerkship. If you just want to do litigation generally, you don't need a clerkship to do that; you can do that at any Big Law firm. It just depends on what your goals are. However, I do think you have a good chance at a clerkship still, so it's not worth worrying about until after the Plan opens.

[Anonymous User]

I work at a boutique litigation firm and for what it's worth, I don't know that a court of Federal Claims clerkship would move the needle. If your goal is to litigate and you want to go to a lit boutique that only hires clerks, then you would be better off holding out for a district court clerkship. If you just want to do litigation generally, you don't need a clerkship to do that; you can do that at any Big Law firm. It just depends on what your goals are. However, I do think you have a good chance at a clerkship still, so it's not worth worrying about until after the Plan opens.

Crap...really? This is exactly what scares me, that it would be a wasted year. Yes, a litigation boutique is somewhere I would like to be long term. So the thought then would be that I should decline the Federal Claims gig if offered and hold out to see if I can get a district clerkship anywhere? Crazy to me that a job in DC is considered so much worse than many jobs in super off-the-map places. But this stinks...almost regret taking the interview now. Thank you very much for the feedback.

[Anonymous User]

I work at a boutique litigation firm and for what it's worth, I don't know that a court of Federal Claims clerkship would move the needle. If your goal is to litigate and you want to go to a lit boutique that only hires clerks, then you would be better off holding out for a district court clerkship. If you just want to do litigation generally, you don't need a clerkship to do that; you can do that at any Big Law firm. It just depends on what your goals are. However, I do think you have a good chance at a clerkship still, so it's not worth worrying about until after the Plan opens.

Crap...really? This is exactly what scares me, that it would be a wasted year. Yes, a litigation boutique is somewhere I would like to be long term. So the thought then would be that I should decline the Federal Claims gig if offered and hold out to see if I can get a district clerkship anywhere? Crazy to me that a job in DC is considered so much worse than many jobs in super off-the-map places. But this stinks...almost regret taking the interview now. Thank you very much for the feedback.

I wouldn't worry that much. If you're the FedSoc type, and it's a Court of Federal Claims judge that hires early, there's a pretty limited subset of judges it can be, and I'm fairly certain almost all of them (the person you are interviewing with specifically) help their clerks obtain appellate gigs.

That being said, if you already know you interview poorly, your primary goal should be improving your interview performance. Do practice interviews and get feedback on what exactly you are doing that can be improved.

[nixy]

If you do decide you’re not going to take the Federal Claims gig, I’d withdraw before the interview, or at the least after the interview, and not wait for an offer. I doubt that they’d hold turning it down against you, but if you really decide you wouldn’t take it, interviewing is a waste of everyone’s time.

[Anonymous User]

why not clerk for a magistrate judge in the sdny or ddc, and then use that as a strong stepping stone for a district court clerkship? I know quite a few top 10-25%ers at NYU who were able to turn an sdny/edny MJ clerkship into a district court clerkship.

federal claims is fine, in the sense that you're actually drafting opinions resolving often interesting cases.

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm. I'm struggling and despondent. I think I can get bigfed, which is great in the long run, but I'm going to miss out on a fuckload of money, which I need to pay off my loans.

You're really, really better off spending two or three years at the V10 and then clerking.

I mean it’s not hard if you have a decent offer going in like most people. But yes, don’t rely on post-clerkship hiring, which is tilted towards very selective firms that are looking for people with resumes beyond “normal” biglaw material.

Fwiw SDNY magistrate clerkships seem like hell to me (former SDNY DJ clerk). Tons of discovery disputes, crazy pro ses, and Social Security, though settlement conferences must be fun.

[Anonymous User]

I work at a boutique litigation firm and for what it's worth, I don't know that a court of Federal Claims clerkship would move the needle. If your goal is to litigate and you want to go to a lit boutique that only hires clerks, then you would be better off holding out for a district court clerkship. If you just want to do litigation generally, you don't need a clerkship to do that; you can do that at any Big Law firm. It just depends on what your goals are. However, I do think you have a good chance at a clerkship still, so it's not worth worrying about until after the Plan opens.

Crap...really? This is exactly what scares me, that it would be a wasted year. Yes, a litigation boutique is somewhere I would like to be long term. So the thought then would be that I should decline the Federal Claims gig if offered and hold out to see if I can get a district clerkship anywhere? Crazy to me that a job in DC is considered so much worse than many jobs in super off-the-map places. But this stinks...almost regret taking the interview now. Thank you very much for the feedback.

You’re focused too much on geography, which doesn’t correlate all that much with prestige, as you’re finding out. A limited-jurisdiction court like CFC or CIT is going to be more distant of an experience from SDNY than SDIN is. There’s a reason the #1 advice you see about clerkships is to apply everywhere.

It’s way, way too early to freak out as a 2L. Even many Fed Soc semi-feeders take people on-plan (e.g. even Katsas often wants two years of grades), and tons of on-plan judges aren’t ideological.

[Anonymous User]

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm.

Off topic, but are biglaw litigation jobs still extremely competitive for district and/or circuit clerks who have some prior biglaw experience? (Esp. if clerking in the market you'd like to work/stay in).

[Anonymous User]

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm.

Off topic, but are biglaw litigation jobs still extremely competitive for district and/or circuit clerks who have some prior biglaw experience? (Esp. if clerking in the market you'd like to work/stay in).

Not in my experience. I worked in biglaw for two years and had district and COA clerkships and didn't have trouble getting a post-clerkship position at a different firm. I networked a lot to get screeners/CBs, which I think made a really big difference.

[Anonymous User]

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm.

Off topic, but are biglaw litigation jobs still extremely competitive for district and/or circuit clerks who have some prior biglaw experience? (Esp. if clerking in the market you'd like to work/stay in).

Not in my experience. I worked in biglaw for two years and had district and COA clerkships and didn't have trouble getting a post-clerkship position at a different firm. I networked a lot to get screeners/CBs, which I think made a really big difference.

Yes, no shit, someone with two years of litigation experience at a top biglaw firm, and district and circuit court clerkships, will have less trouble getting a job. This is why it would help if OP actually worked before clerking in any capacity.

[Anonymous User]

I'm clerking now, and I warn you, it's extremely hard to get a junior litigation job at a good law firm.

Off topic, but are biglaw litigation jobs still extremely competitive for district and/or circuit clerks who have some prior biglaw experience? (Esp. if clerking in the market you'd like to work/stay in).

Not in my experience. I worked in biglaw for two years and had district and COA clerkships and didn't have trouble getting a post-clerkship position at a different firm. I networked a lot to get screeners/CBs, which I think made a really big difference.

Yes, no shit, someone with two years of litigation experience at a top biglaw firm, and district and circuit court clerkships, will have less trouble getting a job. This is why it would help if OP actually worked before clerking in any capacity.

OP already has an offer at a top firm, they’re just looking to trade up. The odds that their firm doesn’t take them back are low.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP. Thank you so much to everyone for the input. Just wanted to make a few final comments, have already gotten lots of good information from this thread.

I wouldn't worry that much. If you're the FedSoc type, and it's a Court of Federal Claims judge that hires early, there's a pretty limited subset of judges it can be, and I'm fairly certain almost all of them (the person you are interviewing with specifically) help their clerks obtain appellate gigs.

Well this is somewhat cheering. I definitely have had the thought that this job could be a fantastic way to get myself an appellate gig that I am not necessarily qualified for (e.g. just outside the top 10% at an MVPB) on the basis of my grades alone. It sure seems like there could be some great down-the-line career opportunities arising out of this gig - although the poster's seeming implication that he knows exactly which judge invited me to interview is a little strange, it seems like he is painting that as a very good thing. I sure hope the judge who asked me in is among the "almost all"

If you do decide you’re not going to take the Federal Claims gig, I’d withdraw before the interview, or at the least after the interview, and not wait for an offer. I doubt that they’d hold turning it down against you, but if you really decide you wouldn’t take it, interviewing is a waste of everyone’s time.

Oh no, I'm definitely interested in the job and I want to take it. It's just that a couple people, online and off, have been kind of shi***** (not sure if I can swear here) on it relative to a district clerkship. I don't really feel that way nor have other people I've talked to but if there is such a perception I'm scared to pass on a year of big law for this.

You’re focused too much on geography, which doesn’t correlate all that much with prestige, as you’re finding out. A limited-jurisdiction court like CFC or CIT is going to be more distant of an experience from SDNY than SDIN is. There’s a reason the #1 advice you see about clerkships is to apply everywhere.

It’s way, way too early to freak out as a 2L. Even many Fed Soc semi-feeders take people on-plan (e.g. even Katsas often wants two years of grades), and tons of on-plan judges aren’t ideological.

Yep I have applied pretty broadly, interview in a couple of random places. Being honest, at the district court level it legitimately seemed like they were looking for ties to the district/state in a way that I more knew to expect with firms. But I also don't want to be focused "too much" on PRESTIGE either, if that makes any sense. Like I don't want to hold out and put all my eggs in the basket of getting a job other Fed Soc kids at my school will think is somewhat more "prestigious" at the expense of lots of other stuff. I just sort of feel like this is literally in federal clerkship in Washington D.C. and I'm kind of turning my nose up at that, and it feels a little ridiculous. I don't know, does that make sense? Like yeah the guy who got the 1L Summer Jerry Smith clerkship will always be more "prestigious" than me in a certain sense --> does it then make sense to always chase that?

also: I thought Katsas was a full feeder, not semi.

OP already has an offer at a top firm, they’re just looking to trade up. The odds that their firm doesn’t take them back are low.

This made me breathe a big sigh of relief. And no, I honestly have 0 interest in trading up. I was shocked with how "top" of a top firm I eventually landed an offer with and feel 0 need for more firm prestige. The ideal would be them taking me back and me being able to positively use this clerkship experience there.

[Wild Card]

OP already has an offer at a top firm, they’re just looking to trade up. The odds that their firm doesn’t take them back are low.

I respectfully disagree. Davis Polk, Cleary, and Paul Weiss are good examples of tip-top lit firms that have not welcomed back clerks.