Movement Forum

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

[Anonymous User]

Any movement from Fitzgerald in CD Cal or any CA9 movement so far this week?

Murguia.

Any info on whether interview or offer?

School only tracks interviews.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Just curious, what kinds of districts/cities were your "pulled from the pile" apps? I always wonder if you're more likely to be just "pulled from the pile" in a northeast city where people are less loyal to locals.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

I heard about a few faculty members who are eager to make calls, but it definitely seems like it's driven by their own motivation and care for their students rather than an institutional effort to place students through calls. (Also, the obvious category outside personal connections is fedsoc, but those students have the least incentive to fill out this form because they have better options than relying on the school network.)

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

I heard about a few faculty members who are eager to make calls, but it definitely seems like it's driven by their own motivation and care for their students rather than an institutional effort to place students through calls.

It's also frustrating for faculty to feel like the outreach is going nowhere. I had a faculty member (not connected to judges but supportive of students) that was engaged and willing to call early on, but got frustrated by the lack of response/payoff. Meanwhile, some of the faculty that clerked/have judge ties and could get a response, won't do anything for students, or will only do it for their favorites (cough Wolff cough).

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

I heard about a few faculty members who are eager to make calls, but it definitely seems like it's driven by their own motivation and care for their students rather than an institutional effort to place students through calls.

It's also frustrating for faculty to feel like the outreach is going nowhere. I had a faculty member (not connected to judges but supportive of students) that was engaged and willing to call early on, but got frustrated by the lack of response/payoff. Meanwhile, some of the faculty that clerked/have judge ties and could get a response, won't do anything for students, or will only do it for their favorites (cough Wolff cough).

Wolff is too busy posting status updates about the Orange Monster to make calls

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Just curious, what kinds of districts/cities were your "pulled from the pile" apps? I always wonder if you're more likely to be just "pulled from the pile" in a northeast city where people are less loyal to locals.

I would have thought that too but I was actually pulled by judges elsewhere. Maybe my numbers weren't quite high enough to get the high-volume Northeast judges interested absent a call? I was pulled by judges who largely did value geographic ties but were willing to overlook the fact I didn't have ties. Think less desirable cities of desirable circuits.

[Anonymous User]

Heard no one from Penn even got an interview in NY. Such a disgrace.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Just curious, what kinds of districts/cities were your "pulled from the pile" apps? I always wonder if you're more likely to be just "pulled from the pile" in a northeast city where people are less loyal to locals.

I would have thought that too but I was actually pulled by judges elsewhere. Maybe my numbers weren't quite high enough to get the high-volume Northeast judges interested absent a call? I was pulled by judges who largely did value geographic ties but were willing to overlook the fact I didn't have ties. Think less desirable cities of desirable circuits.

So interesting! Hope your interviews went/are going well. Another thing that frustrates me is that Penn tells us to apply broadly but then they can’t bother to call chambers outside of the most popular districts, so then we don’t 100% know which judges are hiring if we do want to apply broadly, notably for non-OSCAR judges. Especially since people like you do just get pulled from the pile.

[Anonymous User]

Heard no one from Penn even got an interview in NY. Such a disgrace.

Not surprising to me at all as a current rising 3L but not sure how anyone would know this

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

I heard about a few faculty members who are eager to make calls, but it definitely seems like it's driven by their own motivation and care for their students rather than an institutional effort to place students through calls. (Also, the obvious category outside personal connections is fedsoc, but those students have the least incentive to fill out this form because they have better options than relying on the school network.)

Fed Soc will be in the application materials. You will get a bump with certain judges if you are on the board. And board membership is listed on the resume. There is no Fed Soc backchannel network at Penn where random people are putting in calls or helping Penn fed soc members get clerkships. That stuff only exists at HYS, Chicago, Notre Dame, and maybe Virginia to an extent.

I’ve personally found that public defenders and AUSAs are both usually willing to put in calls if you have done work with them and district judges usually take their calls pretty seriously. Could be a good option for Penn people given how bad the school support is.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

I heard about a few faculty members who are eager to make calls, but it definitely seems like it's driven by their own motivation and care for their students rather than an institutional effort to place students through calls. (Also, the obvious category outside personal connections is fedsoc, but those students have the least incentive to fill out this form because they have better options than relying on the school network.)

Fed Soc will be in the application materials. You will get a bump with certain judges if you are on the board. And board membership is listed on the resume. There is no Fed Soc backchannel network at Penn where random people are putting in calls or helping Penn fed soc members get clerkships.That stuff only exists at HYS, Chicago, Notre Dame, and maybe Virginia to an extent.

I’ve personally found that public defenders and AUSAs are both usually willing to put in calls if you have done work with them and district judges usually take their calls pretty seriously. Could be a good option for Penn people given how bad the school support is.

I know for certain that this is not true.

[Anonymous User]

The AUSA stuff isn't true, either.

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

No experience with Penn, but my COA chambers really scrutinizes writing samples and you might be surprised that many people from T14s with excellent grades don't have great samples. For us, a 3.7 with strong writing will beat summa with avg-to-weak writing all day.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting to me that Penn OCS sends out this form for the faculty committee about how you got your interview/offer: "Were you selected based only on your application materials?" Would love to know what the range of responses to that question looks like. Also because I'm nosy.

No idea on whether this is normal for other Penn folks, but 3 of the 4 interviews I received were because my application materials got pulled from the pile somehow (no geography ties, no outreach). It was hard to answer that question because it's a big mystery to me as well - I have no clue why they pulled me.

Same here. Unfortunately, the answer to the OCS question is almost always just yes, only application materials, because Penn’s faculty barely puts in any calls and is not well connected to the judiciary. That question is so dumb anyway. If you got it because of a connection, then it’s probably personal to you and it won’t be of any help to people in the future.

I heard about a few faculty members who are eager to make calls, but it definitely seems like it's driven by their own motivation and care for their students rather than an institutional effort to place students through calls. (Also, the obvious category outside personal connections is fedsoc, but those students have the least incentive to fill out this form because they have better options than relying on the school network.)

Fed Soc will be in the application materials. You will get a bump with certain judges if you are on the board. And board membership is listed on the resume. There is no Fed Soc backchannel network at Penn where random people are putting in calls or helping Penn fed soc members get clerkships.That stuff only exists at HYS, Chicago, Notre Dame, and maybe Virginia to an extent.

I’ve personally found that public defenders and AUSAs are both usually willing to put in calls if you have done work with them and district judges usually take their calls pretty seriously. Could be a good option for Penn people given how bad the school support is.

I know for certain that this is not true.

It absolutely was true when I went to Penn and I had friends in fed soc at the other schools I mentioned. Not really plugged into the law school fed soc world anymore so I suppose it could be different now. Maybe Penn fed soc has an actual network but I highly doubt it, I didn’t graduate that long ago and they had basically nothing when I was there, not even a solid and invested faculty sponsor. Bibas was basically the only person who cared.

[Anonymous User]

Penn FedSoc very weak. Little if any back channel. But board status is a strong boost with the right judges

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

Weird. I’ve heard of a few really good gets. Same for 24.

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

Weird. I’ve heard of a few really good gets. Same for 24.

The people with 3.9+ do well if they’re willing to apply outside the NYC area… this gripe can’t be real

[Anonymous User]

Is it too much to ask for a 3.9+ student to get a single interview in NY or NJ?

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

Only 10 of the top 25 in the class having a clerkship seems very low for a school of Penn’s rank

I do think Penn’s grade inflation hurts with the most selective judges—it makes it hard to tell who’s actually at the top of the class.

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

Only 10 of the top 25 in the class having a clerkship seems very low for a school of Penn’s rank

I do think Penn’s grade inflation hurts with the most selective judges—it makes it hard to tell who’s actually at the top of the class.

How do the Penn people just outside coif or in cum typically do? I think this forum overemphasizes grades with clerkships a bit. A lot of judges, even some very selective ones, don’t parse grades that finely. For example, my judge did not really care about the difference between a 3.8 and a 3.9. Instead, there were just ballpark GPA cutoffs and if an applicant was above the cutoff,then the rest of the app would be thoroughly considered. The judge basically only cared about GPA for the original cutoff purpose. After the cutoff, writing samples and interesting resumes were far more important than GPA differentials. Also, some great students are just painfully awkward and completely tank interviews.

[Anonymous User]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

Only 10 of the top 25 in the class having a clerkship seems very low for a school of Penn’s rank

I do think Penn’s grade inflation hurts with the most selective judges—it makes it hard to tell who’s actually at the top of the class.

How do the Penn people just outside coif or in cum typically do? I think this forum overemphasizes grades with clerkships a bit. A lot of judges, even some very selective ones, don’t parse grades that finely. For example, my judge did not really care about the difference between a 3.8 and a 3.9. Instead, there were just ballpark GPA cutoffs and if an applicant was above the cutoff,then the rest of the app would be thoroughly considered. The judge basically only cared about GPA for the original cutoff purpose. After the cutoff, writing samples and interesting resumes were far more important than GPA differentials. Also, some great students are just painfully awkward and completely tank interviews.

I think we would do a lot better on plan if we had end of 2L awards like NYU where you can definitively say top 10% or top 25%. No one has any idea where they stand at Penn until graduation.