Plan breakdown check Forum

[Anonymous User]

Where are we on plan breakdown? I assume 6th / 10th / 11th, other FedSoc judges and regions, etc. are basically ignoring, and I know some feeders will skip ahead early, but would it be unwise for a (relatively open politically) candidate to hold on for a semester or year to bet on rising grades before applying, or is the game just to apply as quickly as one can? Think fringe feeder grades at a T6, with the potential to either fall out of that fringe status or leap higher into more "core" feeder status grades-wise by waiting a semester or two for more grades.

[namefromplace]

For clarification, are you a 1L or a 2L? Also, would you be willing to clerk twice? What about taking a gap year between clerkships? Do you have SCOTUS ambitions? You say you're politically open, but could you pass an ideological litmus test for conservative feeders looking for someone who loves originalism/has FedSoc ties?

I'm not aware of any conservative feeders that are on the plan; it doesn't hurt to apply to them as early as possible. I wouldn't risk holding out on applying to them on the off-chance you would get a liberal feeder (which, coming from a non-HSY would be unlikely anyways) especially if you don't have a political preference.

I think the real question is whether you want to apply for FedSoc judges who aren't feeders/aren't in circuits you want to be in as much, or if you want to wait for OSCAR judges so you can better evaluate your options. That question is just about your risk tolerance and how much you'd want to work in whatever your target circuit is.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re a 1L, you’re too early for 2023 or to have any idea if you’re competitive for feeders, and if you’re a 2L, you’re too late for off-plan 2022.

On/off plan depends much more on ideology than on circuit. I’m not aware of any Dem-appointed judges, including on the circuits you list, who hire off-plan. A decent number of conservatives also hire exclusively or partially on-plan, but usually not feeders.

In general, it’s not rocket science, if there are judges you want to clerk for as much or more than Plan judges that (a) would hire you and (b) hire off-plan—for moderates that’s a fairly short list of people—apply to them. Assume your grades will drop, not rise.

Also, if you’re not in Fed Soc and you’re at a CCN, you’re not getting a “core feeder” realistically unless maybe if you’re literally #1, your school has an unusually good connection with one like Chicago/Tatel, you have an all star recommender, etc. The top liberal feeders like Garland and Srinivasan rarely hire from CCN.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re a 1L, you’re too early for 2023 or to have any idea if you’re competitive for feeders, and if you’re a 2L, you’re too late for off-plan 2022.

On/off plan depends much more on ideology than on circuit. I’m not aware of any Dem-appointed judges, including on the circuits you list, who hire off-plan. A decent number of conservatives also hire exclusively or partially on-plan, but usually not feeders.

In general, it’s not rocket science, if there are judges you want to clerk for as much or more than Plan judges that (a) would hire you and (b) hire off-plan—for moderates that’s a fairly short list of people—apply to them. Assume your grades will drop, not rise.

Also, if you’re not in Fed Soc and you’re at a CCN, you’re not getting a “core feeder” realistically unless maybe if you’re literally #1, your school has an unusually good connection with one like Chicago/Tatel, you have an all star recommender, etc. The top liberal feeders like Garland and Srinivasan rarely hire from CCN.

I have heard of 2Ls with liberal judge clerkships at my CCN, so I think some must cheat, but very few. My general advice here is the same as the poster above. You should send out a few apps to your top off-plan choices. If you exhaust those, apply to the on plan judges come june.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re a 1L, you’re too early for 2023 or to have any idea if you’re competitive for feeders, and if you’re a 2L, you’re too late for off-plan 2022.

On/off plan depends much more on ideology than on circuit. I’m not aware of any Dem-appointed judges, including on the circuits you list, who hire off-plan. A decent number of conservatives also hire exclusively or partially on-plan, but usually not feeders.

In general, it’s not rocket science, if there are judges you want to clerk for as much or more than Plan judges that (a) would hire you and (b) hire off-plan—for moderates that’s a fairly short list of people—apply to them. Assume your grades will drop, not rise.

Also, if you’re not in Fed Soc and you’re at a CCN, you’re not getting a “core feeder” realistically unless maybe if you’re literally #1, your school has an unusually good connection with one like Chicago/Tatel, you have an all star recommender, etc. The top liberal feeders like Garland and Srinivasan rarely hire from CCN.

Some of this is wrong. Many off-plan feeders and semi-feeders look to hire moderate and liberal students - Wilkinson, Sutton, Kethledge, Stras, Thapar, Newsom, Bibas... Also, CCN doesn't fare that badly. Garland rarely hired from CCN (he's since retired), but Srinivasan has hired many CCN students. Other liberal feeders, especially on the 2nd Circuit, hire from CCN almost every year.

Talk to your school's clerkship office. They will tell you how recent classes have done.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 2L and just sent a bunch of mail apps to judges. Will it hurt me that some of them may have been on-plan?

[Reese1]

I’m a 2L and just sent a bunch of mail apps to judges. Will it hurt me that some of them may have been on-plan?

I highly doubt it. If they are not taking apps off-plan, I suspect the clerks will just throw your app away without looking at it. No way they remember your name when the plan comes around. I know someone who landed a clerkship applying off-plan and then again to the same judge on-plan.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 2L and just sent a bunch of mail apps to judges. Will it hurt me that some of them may have been on-plan?

I highly doubt it. If they are not taking apps off-plan, I suspect the clerks will just throw your app away without looking at it. No way they remember your name when the plan comes around. I know someone who landed a clerkship applying off-plan and then again to the same judge on-plan.

Same anon. Thanks! But how would I know that they threw it away? I would be nervous applying to a judge again online who might've just held my application and then looking annoying for applying twice.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re a 1L, you’re too early for 2023 or to have any idea if you’re competitive for feeders, and if you’re a 2L, you’re too late for off-plan 2022.

On/off plan depends much more on ideology than on circuit. I’m not aware of any Dem-appointed judges, including on the circuits you list, who hire off-plan. A decent number of conservatives also hire exclusively or partially on-plan, but usually not feeders.

In general, it’s not rocket science, if there are judges you want to clerk for as much or more than Plan judges that (a) would hire you and (b) hire off-plan—for moderates that’s a fairly short list of people—apply to them. Assume your grades will drop, not rise.

Also, if you’re not in Fed Soc and you’re at a CCN, you’re not getting a “core feeder” realistically unless maybe if you’re literally #1, your school has an unusually good connection with one like Chicago/Tatel, you have an all star recommender, etc. The top liberal feeders like Garland and Srinivasan rarely hire from CCN.

Some of this is wrong. Many off-plan feeders and semi-feeders look to hire moderate and liberal students - Wilkinson, Sutton, Kethledge, Stras, Thapar, Newsom, Bibas... Also, CCN doesn't fare that badly. Garland rarely hired from CCN (he's since retired), but Srinivasan has hired many CCN students. Other liberal feeders, especially on the 2nd Circuit, hire from CCN almost every year.

Talk to your school's clerkship office. They will tell you how recent classes have done.

All of those conservative judges sometimes hire liberals--add Ikuta, Richardson, and Park and I'd say that's pretty much exactly the "short list" I was thinking of--but all prefer Fed Soc students when they get them and many on that list only hire liberals once in a blue moon (still worth applying though). The conservative judges who hire liberals every year like Livingston, Miller, Milan Smith, and Scudder generally hire on-plan. Also, for liberal students' purposes, they're not really "feeders" or "semi-feeders" because the liberal justices don't really hire from conservative judges (minus Sutton) and the conservative justices (minus Roberts and maybe Kavanaugh) don't really hire liberal students.

The few remaining liberal true feeders--Srinivasan, Katzmann, Fletcher, maybe Tatel--are less hard-line than Garland but still rarely hire from CCN. Katzmann has literally never hired from Chicago for example. I know e.g. Lohier hires from NYU, Livingston hires from Columbia, etc. due to their backgrounds/locations, but I wouldn't consider them core feeders, so we might just have a semantic disagreement.

[Reese1]

I’m a 2L and just sent a bunch of mail apps to judges. Will it hurt me that some of them may have been on-plan?

I highly doubt it. If they are not taking apps off-plan, I suspect the clerks will just throw your app away without looking at it. No way they remember your name when the plan comes around. I know someone who landed a clerkship applying off-plan and then again to the same judge on-plan.

Same anon. Thanks! But how would I know that they threw it away? I would be nervous applying to a judge again online who might've just held my application and then looking annoying for applying twice.

I don't think it would really annoy the judge. Plus, the second time you will have another semester of grades, so it isn't useless to send in an app over OSCAR.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 2L and just sent a bunch of mail apps to judges. Will it hurt me that some of them may have been on-plan?

I highly doubt it. If they are not taking apps off-plan, I suspect the clerks will just throw your app away without looking at it. No way they remember your name when the plan comes around. I know someone who landed a clerkship applying off-plan and then again to the same judge on-plan.

Same anon. Thanks! But how would I know that they threw it away? I would be nervous applying to a judge again online who might've just held my application and then looking annoying for applying twice.

I don't think it would really annoy the judge. Plus, the second time you will have another semester of grades, so it isn't useless to send in an app over OSCAR.

That's a good point! So - for the judges to whom I've sent mail apps, apply online for the judges who accept OSCAR apps, apply online with an updated transcript?

[Anonymous User]

If you’re a 1L, you’re too early for 2023 or to have any idea if you’re competitive for feeders, and if you’re a 2L, you’re too late for off-plan 2022.

On/off plan depends much more on ideology than on circuit. I’m not aware of any Dem-appointed judges, including on the circuits you list, who hire off-plan. A decent number of conservatives also hire exclusively or partially on-plan, but usually not feeders.

In general, it’s not rocket science, if there are judges you want to clerk for as much or more than Plan judges that (a) would hire you and (b) hire off-plan—for moderates that’s a fairly short list of people—apply to them. Assume your grades will drop, not rise.

Also, if you’re not in Fed Soc and you’re at a CCN, you’re not getting a “core feeder” realistically unless maybe if you’re literally #1, your school has an unusually good connection with one like Chicago/Tatel, you have an all star recommender, etc. The top liberal feeders like Garland and Srinivasan rarely hire from CCN.

Some of this is wrong. Many off-plan feeders and semi-feeders look to hire moderate and liberal students - Wilkinson, Sutton, Kethledge, Stras, Thapar, Newsom, Bibas... Also, CCN doesn't fare that badly. Garland rarely hired from CCN (he's since retired), but Srinivasan has hired many CCN students. Other liberal feeders, especially on the 2nd Circuit, hire from CCN almost every year.

Talk to your school's clerkship office. They will tell you how recent classes have done.

All of those conservative judges sometimes hire liberals--add Ikuta, Richardson, and Park and I'd say that's pretty much exactly the "short list" I was thinking of--but all prefer Fed Soc students when they get them and many on that list only hire liberals once in a blue moon (still worth applying though). The conservative judges who hire liberals every year like Livingston, Miller, Milan Smith, and Scudder generally hire on-plan. Also, for liberal students' purposes, they're not really "feeders" or "semi-feeders" because the liberal justices don't really hire from conservative judges (minus Sutton) and the conservative justices (minus Roberts and maybe Kavanaugh) don't really hire liberal students.

The few remaining liberal true feeders--Srinivasan, Katzmann, Fletcher, maybe Tatel--are less hard-line than Garland but still rarely hire from CCN. Katzmann has literally never hired from Chicago for example. I know e.g. Lohier hires from NYU, Livingston hires from Columbia, etc. due to their backgrounds/locations, but I wouldn't consider them core feeders, so we might just have a semantic disagreement.

Ikuta, Richardson, and Park are fair additions. Sykes, Bress, Willett, and Scirica are on that list too. Basically, most conservative feeders and semi-feeders at least consider liberals, with exceptions. Also, I disagree that conservative judges can't be feeders for liberals. All the liberal justices hire regularly from conservative judges.* As for conservative justices, Roberts often hires liberals, Kavanaugh and Gorsuch occasionally (and Alito very occasionally) hire liberals, and Thomas occasionally hires not-liberal-but-not-conservative sorts with demonstrated not-political interests (M&A, tax, IP, antitrust, and the ilk). All of Barrett's clerks are conservative so far - but she has only hired four.

If you're liberal and want to clerk, don't lose hope - and consider applying off-plan if you're ok counterclerking! Maybe some judges will hold your beliefs against you, but others won't. Not everything in this profession is as political as CNN and Fox News want you to believe.

*As per Wikipedia, Breyer has hired from Posner (x8); Kozinski (x3); Silberman (x3); Wilkinson (x3); Griffith (x2); Kavanaugh (x2); Scirica (x2); D. Ginsburg; Sentelle; and Sutton. Kagan has hired from Griffith (x3); Wilkinson (x3); Kavanaugh (x2); J.R. Brown; Gorsuch; Scirica; and Sutton. Sotomayor has hired from Kavanaugh (x3); Thapar (x3); Sutton (x2); J.R. Brown; Gorsuch; Kozinski; Livingston; McConnell; Niemeyer; and Raggi.

[Anonymous User]

I agree with most of that with the qualification that hiring on the newest spreadsheet with recent hires by the current court (https://imgur.com/a/R5r29qt) has almost no conservative-to-liberal "cross-feeding" besides Sutton, Kavanaugh, and Griffith, two of whom are gone. Obviously there are exceptions, etc., but the odds aren't great even by SCOTUS clerkship standards. Whether Thapar continues to have a relationship with Sotomayor post-elevation will be interesting to see.

From my personal experience, I applied some off-plan and some on-plan as a liberal, interviewed with several judges on that list, and eventually landed with a couple I'm really happy with. It's 100% worth doing if you'd be up for counter-clerking. I'm not optimistic on my SCOTUS prospects even though I would be well-positioned if I was conservative, but I didn't expect to go to a top liberal feeder anyway--and got no interest from them on-plan--so I don't feel like I missed out on anything.

[Anonymous User]

I agree with most of that with the qualification that hiring on the newest spreadsheet with recent hires by the current court (https://imgur.com/a/R5r29qt) has almost no conservative-to-liberal "cross-feeding" besides Sutton, Kavanaugh, and Griffith, two of whom are gone. Obviously there are exceptions, etc., but the odds aren't great even by SCOTUS clerkship standards. Whether Thapar continues to have a relationship with Sotomayor post-elevation will be interesting to see.

From my personal experience, I applied some off-plan and some on-plan as a liberal, interviewed with several judges on that list, and eventually landed with a couple I'm really happy with. It's 100% worth doing if you'd be up for counter-clerking. I'm not optimistic on my SCOTUS prospects even though I would be well-positioned if I was conservative, but I didn't expect to go to a top liberal feeder anyway--and got no interest from them on-plan--so I don't feel like I missed out on anything.

In addition to Sutton, Kavanaugh, and Griffith, the chart shows cross-feeding from Wilkinson, Gorsuch, Kozinski, Livingston, and Scirica. As you note, mostly older judges. But that's no surprise - Most young judges feed to a justice they know personally (Katsas to Thomas), and become more versatile after building a good reputation. It will be interesting to see if any of Trump's nominees assume this mantle to the level of a Kavanaugh.

[Anonymous User]

I agree with most of that with the qualification that hiring on the newest spreadsheet with recent hires by the current court (https://imgur.com/a/R5r29qt) has almost no conservative-to-liberal "cross-feeding" besides Sutton, Kavanaugh, and Griffith, two of whom are gone. Obviously there are exceptions, etc., but the odds aren't great even by SCOTUS clerkship standards. Whether Thapar continues to have a relationship with Sotomayor post-elevation will be interesting to see.

From my personal experience, I applied some off-plan and some on-plan as a liberal, interviewed with several judges on that list, and eventually landed with a couple I'm really happy with. It's 100% worth doing if you'd be up for counter-clerking. I'm not optimistic on my SCOTUS prospects even though I would be well-positioned if I was conservative, but I didn't expect to go to a top liberal feeder anyway--and got no interest from them on-plan--so I don't feel like I missed out on anything.

In addition to Sutton, Kavanaugh, and Griffith, the chart shows cross-feeding from Wilkinson, Gorsuch, Kozinski, Livingston, and Scirica. As you note, mostly older judges. But that's no surprise - Most young judges feed to a justice they know personally (Katsas to Thomas), and become more versatile after building a good reputation. It will be interesting to see if any of Trump's nominees assume this mantle to the level of a Kavanaugh.

Bumping this to add another example. According to Lat, Kagan just hired a Kethledge clerk.