Bargaining for extra clerking time? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am coming up on my 1 year with my district court judge, and I have not yet found a job. A new class of clerks is set to begin next month. I would love to stay for a little longer - if nothing else, for the income. I am not sure if any of the incoming clerks would be willing (or permitted by the judge) to delay their start date a bit. I realize that it might screw up future start/end dates, etc., but if it could be accomplished, an extension of anywhere from 1-3 months (or longer) would be ideal, just to provide a little cushion. Anybody have any experience brokering this kind of deal? It seems a little icky to me to broach the subject with either the judge or the new clerks.

[shoebox]

I am coming up on my 1 year with my district court judge, and I have not yet found a job. A new class of clerks is set to begin next month. I would love to stay for a little longer - if nothing else, for the income. I am not sure if any of the incoming clerks would be willing (or permitted by the judge) to delay their start date a bit. I realize that it might screw up future start/end dates, etc., but if it could be accomplished, an extension of anywhere from 1-3 months (or longer) would be ideal, just to provide a little cushion. Anybody have any experience brokering this kind of deal? It seems a little icky to me to broach the subject with either the judge or the new clerks.

The time to do this would have been much earlier in the summer. The new clerks probably have some serious reliance interests in starting as scheduled at this point (arranged for housing, quit previous jobs if not straight out of law school, need $ to pay their own bills, etc.)

[Anonymous User]

I don't know that hindsight really helps answer the question, even if you're right. Assuming that it would have been attempted months ago, what would you have recommended at that time?

[cheaptilts]

You should talk to your judge. If your judge’s amenable to the idea, then the judge may call the incoming clerks and see whether one of them is okay with the idea. That’s how it usually happens, anyway.

If your judge is not okay with the idea, then that’s that. I wouldn’t reach out to any incoming clerks before talking to the judge.

Your judge should also be helping you find a job. I would lean on the judge heavily to do so. That said. if they’re not interested in helping you find one, they likely won’t be interested in calling incoming clerks to help you stay on a few extra months.

[cheaptilts]

It’s not icky to broach the subject with the judge (it’s not an uncommon subject to raise from what I understand), but it should’ve been done at least a month or two ago. The above poster is right. So you shouldn’t delay any longer. There’s also no bargaining to be done; the judge and at least one incoming law clerk will agree or they won’t. I don’t see what you’d be able to offer in return.

Good luck!! Talk ASAP and, again, lean hard on the judge for an accommodation, help finding you a job, help getting you placed with another judge on the court temporarily (assuming that judge has the budget to bring on another clerk), etc. It’s not uncommon, but you are late to the game already.

[nixy]

You should talk to your judge. If your judge’s amenable to the idea, then the judge may call the incoming clerks and see whether one of them is okay with the idea. That’s how it usually happens, anyway.

If your judge is not okay with the idea, then that’s that. I wouldn’t reach out to any incoming clerks before talking to the judge.

Your judge should also be helping you find a job. I would lean on the judge heavily to do so. That said. if they’re not interested in helping you find one, they likely won’t be interested in calling incoming clerks to help you stay on a few extra months.

The one thing I will say to this is that I had a situation where my judge basically said, "you and the incoming clerk can work out your end date/their start date." If something like that had already been said, I think it's fine to contact the clerk directly. But it's a tiny nit to pick, overall I agree with what everyone else has said. You'd need to talk to your judge first. It's icky because it's probably going to be hard for anyone to accommodate you at this point in the game, but there isn't any way for it to happen otherwise.

[shoebox]

I don't know that hindsight really helps answer the question, even if you're right. Assuming that it would have been attempted months ago, what would you have recommended at that time?

I think that conversation would have been perfectly acceptable at that point. At this point, I'd be hesitant to even ask, though you gotta do what you gotta do. One alternative strategy might be to just let the judge know you haven't been able to find another gig due to the pandemic, and ask the judge if he/she has any suggestions. Maybe there's another gig in the court house (pro se law clerk) or circuit (staff attorney?), or local law firm that the judge has an inside track on.

[cjm2018]

Your judge should also be helping you find a job. I would lean on the judge heavily to do so. That said. if they’re not interested in helping you find one, they likely won’t be interested in calling incoming clerks to help you stay on a few extra months.

Do you actually think it is a good idea for OP to "lean on the judge heavily" to help them find a job? I have never been of the impression that the judge "should . . . be helping you find a job." This is a ridiculous take. I don't think a judge owes a clerk anything in this sense, even if they were the best clerk the judge could have ever had. Also, some judges are quick to pick up a rolodex and help. Others take an ethical stand against it, although they are willing to serve as a reference.

OP, have an honest conversation with your judge about your future-employment predicament and perhaps ask if they have any ideas or leads. If they have a practice of helping or are willing to make an exception to their traditional rule given the particular circumstances, they'll let you know. I would never, ever lean in on the judge as if they "owe" you something.

[GoneSouth]

I don't know that hindsight really helps answer the question, even if you're right. Assuming that it would have been attempted months ago, what would you have recommended at that time?

I think that conversation would have been perfectly acceptable at that point. At this point, I'd be hesitant to even ask, though you gotta do what you gotta do. One alternative strategy might be to just let the judge know you haven't been able to find another gig due to the pandemic, and ask the judge if he/she has any suggestions. Maybe there's another gig in the court house (pro se law clerk) or circuit (staff attorney?), or local law firm that the judge has an inside track on.

This may be your best bet at this point. I know some courts have been finding a way to let clerks who haven’t found jobs stay on, while still allowing the new clerks to start. Perhaps there’s a staff attorney job? Maybe there’s a senior judge who’s not using all his/her clerk slots and you can slide into that but be “assigned” to help your current judge (this was a thing at both courts I worked on).

[bretby]

In my experience, I think the judge would care a lot less than the clerk you would be bumping back, given that at this point they have likely given notice at their job and so they'd be twisting in the end without a paycheck for however long you stayed on. But I would definitely broach the matter with the judge first before I talked to the incoming clerks.

[Anonymous User]

My judge allowed my co-clerk whose new job didn't start for several months to stay on as, officially, an unpaid intern who retained the title of law clerk so that she wouldn't have a long unemployment gap on her resume. That doesn't help someone who's worried about being out a paycheck but it's an example of judges having some flexibility.

[Anonymous User]

Relevant anecdote here. I'm an incoming clerk (scheduled to start in a little over a month). The judge was very upfront early on that he's flexible with start/end dates, so long as incoming/outgoing clerks can work it out among themselves so there are no gaps. I had a confirmed date by May. A couple months ago, the clerk I'm replacing reached out to me because the firm he's joining moved his start date to January, and he wanted to check if I had a preference on moving my start date to a later date. I had no preference and let him know I'd work with him if he had any preference, and we ultimately decided to stick with the original date.

But it certainly appears that if either I or the current clerk had wanted to change my start date/his departure date, the judge would have been fine with it. But again, the judge has historically been very flexible about start dates. That said, the clerk reached out 3 months in advance, which would have given me plenty of time to figure out housing, financing, and timing issues. If he only reached out now, I would be much less flexible given that half my firm already knows my likely end date and I've been operating on the assumption that I'm winding down in the next couple weeks.

[Anonymous User]

In my experience, I think the judge would care a lot less than the clerk you would be bumping back, given that at this point they have likely given notice at their job and so they'd be twisting in the end without a paycheck for however long you stayed on. But I would definitely broach the matter with the judge first before I talked to the incoming clerks.

Agreed. I think it's borderline professionally inappropriate to even consider asking an incoming clerk to delay his/her start date. He or she has probably been working their whole adult life to get to this clerkship, and I think it would be insulting to ask them to delay. If they're coming from a firm - maybe it's somewhat understandable. But even then, the incoming clerk has likely been winding down his/her work and withdrawing from cases. I feel your pain about not being able to find a job. The market sucks right now. But I think it's ridiculous to ask someone else to shorten his or her dream job so that you can keep drawing a paycheck.

You should have thought about this *months* ago. I think you run a very real risk of irritating your judge and incoming law clerk (i.e., future colleague) by even asking. Put your energy towards finding a job and not taking away from someone else's job.

[IWorkedHarderThanYou]

Your judge should also be helping you find a job. I would lean on the judge heavily to do so. That said. if they’re not interested in helping you find one, they likely won’t be interested in calling incoming clerks to help you stay on a few extra months.

Do you actually think it is a good idea for OP to "lean on the judge heavily" to help them find a job? I have never been of the impression that the judge "should . . . be helping you find a job." This is a ridiculous take. I don't think a judge owes a clerk anything in this sense, even if they were the best clerk the judge could have ever had. Also, some judges are quick to pick up a rolodex and help. Others take an ethical stand against it, although they are willing to serve as a reference.

OP, have an honest conversation with your judge about your future-employment predicament and perhaps ask if they have any ideas or leads. If they have a practice of helping or are willing to make an exception to their traditional rule given the particular circumstances, they'll let you know. I would never, ever lean in on the judge as if they "owe" you something.

It’s most definitely not a “ridiculous take.” Although I wouldn’t advocate “leaning heavily” on a Judge, it’s certainly appropriate to ask for his or her help. Each Judge has a different policy, but good Judges absolutely help their clerks find jobs.

I suspect a lot of post-clerkship job difficulties on this board arise from a HYS clerk going to clerk for some random Indiana District Court Judge and having zero desire to stay in Indiana. That Judge may simply have no pull with jobs in the market where the clerk wants to go.

Regardless, OP should have asked for his or her Judge’s help and guidance a LONG time ago. The idea of asking a Judge or incoming clerk to delay a start date just to give OP more time to find a job is just flat out absurd to me.

[Anonymous User]

Your judge should also be helping you find a job. I would lean on the judge heavily to do so. That said. if they’re not interested in helping you find one, they likely won’t be interested in calling incoming clerks to help you stay on a few extra months.

Do you actually think it is a good idea for OP to "lean on the judge heavily" to help them find a job? I have never been of the impression that the judge "should . . . be helping you find a job." This is a ridiculous take. I don't think a judge owes a clerk anything in this sense, even if they were the best clerk the judge could have ever had. Also, some judges are quick to pick up a rolodex and help. Others take an ethical stand against it, although they are willing to serve as a reference.

OP, have an honest conversation with your judge about your future-employment predicament and perhaps ask if they have any ideas or leads. If they have a practice of helping or are willing to make an exception to their traditional rule given the particular circumstances, they'll let you know. I would never, ever lean in on the judge as if they "owe" you something.

It’s most definitely not a “ridiculous take.” Although I wouldn’t advocate “leaning heavily” on a Judge, it’s certainly appropriate to ask for his or her help. Each Judge has a different policy, but good Judges absolutely help their clerks find jobs.

I suspect a lot of post-clerkship job difficulties on this board arise from a HYS clerk going to clerk for some random Indiana District Court Judge and having zero desire to stay in Indiana. That Judge may simply have no pull with jobs in the market where the clerk wants to go.

Regardless, OP should have asked for his or her Judge’s help and guidance a LONG time ago. The idea of asking a Judge or incoming clerk to delay a start date just to give OP more time to find a job is just flat out absurd to me.

I’m not sure you grasp how bad the hiring market was for clerks this year. I know a person who had both a district and circuit clerkship in the city she was looking in (major market), and she struggled to find a BigLaw job. Many firms completely stopped hiring, no matter your credentials. Her judge tried to help, but when a firm has a formal nationwide hiring freeze, a call from a judge isn’t going to change anything.

[Anonymous User]

It's true that the job market was a lot tougher this year because the onset of the pandemic coincided with when a lot of firms would have been making offers, but this is even more reason for OP not to delay the end date -- the likelihood that they'll land a job with a few more weeks isn't great and so they'd be (probably) seriously imposing on the incoming clerk for little reason.

[cjm2018]

Your judge should also be helping you find a job. I would lean on the judge heavily to do so. That said. if they’re not interested in helping you find one, they likely won’t be interested in calling incoming clerks to help you stay on a few extra months.

Do you actually think it is a good idea for OP to "lean on the judge heavily" to help them find a job? I have never been of the impression that the judge "should . . . be helping you find a job." This is a ridiculous take. I don't think a judge owes a clerk anything in this sense, even if they were the best clerk the judge could have ever had. Also, some judges are quick to pick up a rolodex and help. Others take an ethical stand against it, although they are willing to serve as a reference.

OP, have an honest conversation with your judge about your future-employment predicament and perhaps ask if they have any ideas or leads. If they have a practice of helping or are willing to make an exception to their traditional rule given the particular circumstances, they'll let you know. I would never, ever lean in on the judge as if they "owe" you something.

It’s most definitely not a “ridiculous take.” Although I wouldn’t advocate “leaning heavily” on a Judge, it’s certainly appropriate to ask for his or her help. Each Judge has a different policy, but good Judges absolutely help their clerks find jobs.

I suspect a lot of post-clerkship job difficulties on this board arise from a HYS clerk going to clerk for some random Indiana District Court Judge and having zero desire to stay in Indiana. That Judge may simply have no pull with jobs in the market where the clerk wants to go.

Regardless, OP should have asked for his or her Judge’s help and guidance a LONG time ago. The idea of asking a Judge or incoming clerk to delay a start date just to give OP more time to find a job is just flat out absurd to me.

To be clear, I certainly don't think it is a ridiculous take to ask your judge for help (see the second part of my post), nor am I under the impression that judges do not routinely help their clerks find post-clerkship employment. Both of those things happen routinely.

The ridiculous take I saw was the tone that OP should "lean" on the judge because the judge "should" be helping OP find a job. I think it is important to not "lean" and expect that your judge "should" help you find a job. I would still remain highly deferential to the judge in terms of how they wish to help, with an emphasis on the fact that they are helping you, not merely repaying a debt to the clerk for the clerk's service. There is certainly no harm in asking politely and having the kind of conversation you would have with any mentor. But if it happens to be your judge's policy to stay out of this sort of activity (or even if they do routinely pull out the rolodex), you could put the judge off and harm your long-term relationship with the judge if you come in with the lean-in and you-owe-me attitude. That's what I think is the bad move.

In substance, IWorkedHarderThanYou, our advice does not seem to be far apart.