2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

For other alums applying right now, how do you get a decent writing sample? I feel like I've been out of law school too long to be using stuff from there, but all the briefs I've written for my firm have been edited a ton by the partners. I don't really feel comfortable submitting those, especially when a lot of judges have postings that say writing samples shouldn't be substantially edited by others. And doesn't submitting real legal work raise a whole lot of confidentiality/work product issues?

When I applied as an alum, I used the first draft of an appellate brief I had done, with (a) permission from the partner who supervised it, noted in the cover page, and (b) edited all names/details for privacy. I had to excerpt it significantly to stay within page limits, and took that opportunity to make some of my own edits to it, which I was assured was truthful to various judges' requirements that it remains your own work, and that that editing and redaction process helped dissipate some of the work product issues, since it was no longer a snapshot of in-process work that you did for the client. For judges who did not specify that the writing sample needed to be all your own work, I did the same but with the final/as-filed version of the brief.

[Redamon1]

For other alums applying right now, how do you get a decent writing sample? I feel like I've been out of law school too long to be using stuff from there, but all the briefs I've written for my firm have been edited a ton by the partners. I don't really feel comfortable submitting those, especially when a lot of judges have postings that say writing samples shouldn't be substantially edited by others. And doesn't submitting real legal work raise a whole lot of confidentiality/work product issues?

Yes, you should submit something from work rather than school. You can redact and cut as needed to protect confidentiality, with your supervisor's permission. And you should be able to find or in the future produce a memo or brief that hasn't been substantially edited, or maybe a section of a longer brief where you took the lead. If needed, it can even be an earlier draft.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re at Chicago, they probably made calls whether you asked them to or not. You probably need to have a conversation with Strahilevitz, etc. if you’re gunning for SCOTUS and want Dean Miles to go to bat for you with Srinivasan, etc. but I didn’t even know my writers and the clerkship committee had been calling (or that calls were much of a thing) until judges told me. They have it down to a science. It also makes it pretty artificial in that I believe that they game out pretty heavily which students get pushed to which judges (and control it completely for some judges like Easterbrook).

Can confirm that the clerkship committee has its own plan for everyone. Got an email the weekend before the plan started asking me if I wanted them to call judge so-and-so, who was on my list but I hadn't expressed an extremely strong interest in.

Would you mind sharing roughly where you are in the class? I know that nobody has made calls on my behalf and was curious as to where one has to be grade-wise for this to happen?

Sure, I'm KE and still no dice on the judges they called. But I can also say in terms of getting them to call in the first place, it probably also helps that I reached out to the committee proactively, just not about specific judges.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re at Chicago, they probably made calls whether you asked them to or not. You probably need to have a conversation with Strahilevitz, etc. if you’re gunning for SCOTUS and want Dean Miles to go to bat for you with Srinivasan, etc. but I didn’t even know my writers and the clerkship committee had been calling (or that calls were much of a thing) until judges told me. They have it down to a science. It also makes it pretty artificial in that I believe that they game out pretty heavily which students get pushed to which judges (and control it completely for some judges like Easterbrook).

Can confirm that the clerkship committee has its own plan for everyone. Got an email the weekend before the plan started asking me if I wanted them to call judge so-and-so, who was on my list but I hadn't expressed an extremely strong interest in.

Would you mind sharing roughly where you are in the class? I know that nobody has made calls on my behalf and was curious as to where one has to be grade-wise for this to happen?

Sure, I'm KE and still no dice on the judges they called. But I can also say in terms of getting them to call in the first place, it probably also helps that I reached out to the committee proactively, just not about specific judges.

It might be best to reach out to recommenders directly for insight if you are close enough with them. That worked for me.

FWIW, not KE and OCS seemed disinterested (and sometimes combative) in helping me but I still landed two clerkships working recommenders. But you have to know your recommenders and their limits.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re at Chicago, they probably made calls whether you asked them to or not. You probably need to have a conversation with Strahilevitz, etc. if you’re gunning for SCOTUS and want Dean Miles to go to bat for you with Srinivasan, etc. but I didn’t even know my writers and the clerkship committee had been calling (or that calls were much of a thing) until judges told me. They have it down to a science. It also makes it pretty artificial in that I believe that they game out pretty heavily which students get pushed to which judges (and control it completely for some judges like Easterbrook).

Can confirm that the clerkship committee has its own plan for everyone. Got an email the weekend before the plan started asking me if I wanted them to call judge so-and-so, who was on my list but I hadn't expressed an extremely strong interest in.

Would you mind sharing roughly where you are in the class? I know that nobody has made calls on my behalf and was curious as to where one has to be grade-wise for this to happen?

Sure, I'm KE and still no dice on the judges they called. But I can also say in terms of getting them to call in the first place, it probably also helps that I reached out to the committee proactively, just not about specific judges.

It might be best to reach out to recommenders directly for insight if you are close enough with them. That worked for me.

FWIW, not KE and OCS seemed disinterested (and sometimes combative) in helping me but I still landed two clerkships working recommenders. But you have to know your recommenders and their limits.

Yeah, I've been pretty actively in touch with my recommenders and with some other profs I know--maybe the problem is with some of them, I've just updated them on the situation and haven't asked them directly to call for me. And now most of the positions I was initially interested in have dried up. I also worry I might have offended one of my recommenders (who I really adore) by politely but firmly declining to apply to a judge they wanted me to apply to. This process has been very difficult for me to navigate, and I'm afraid I'm not cut out for the politics of asking for and accepting people's help.

[Anonymous User]

As long as we're comparing notes about clerkship offices and calls, NYU says that they arrange for faculty recommenders to call a couple judges on behalf of every rising 3L applicant (maybe as many as 4 judges, depending on the applicant and where they're applying). The rules on who you're allowed to list on your "top choices" for them to contact are pretty strict based on your GPA so that you don't waste your recommenders' time, and they don't tell you which judges they end up choosing for you. But they also say you're expected to work your networks to get outreach beyond that.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to chime in here as someone on faculty at a T10 who has been writing recommendation letters and reaching out to judges this cycle. I'm admittedly on the *far* younger end of the faculty spectrum (so much so that once many many moons ago I was myself a law school applicant on TLS in its Dark Ages days!), so my views may be mildly idiosyncratic and/or not in line with the heavyweights of the academe, but:

The overarching thing to remember is that just as students are trying to manage their reputations with professors because they that the recommendation business can be a repeat player game, the same is true (x10) for faculty. And just as applying to judges is time-consuming for applicants, supporting applicants is time-consuming for professors. This creates a few dynamics that student applicants might not necessarily appreciate, and which I think bear explaining (this may be obvious for many of you, so apologies if so):

A. I only target one student per judge per cycle. My experience is pushing multiple students to the same judge at the same time hurts them all -- and my credibility, at the margins. That significantly constrains who I recommend, and when.

B. Because of A., I generally encourage my student-mentees to settle on a few top *realistic* choices, over a series of conversations, generally well in advance. Because I am strategic and don't want to waste my energy or disappoint my student-mentees, I also often collaborate with fellow faculty recommenders for Student X to make sure everyone's ducks are in a row that we are all focusing on Student X for Judge Y. That also sometimes means, at the margins, that even if I think you would be a great fit for Judge Y, if Professor Z already knows Judge Y well, and if Prof. Z has another student in mind they are pushing hard, Prof. Z is in the driver's seat, and I am going to defer to them. Alas, that means I won't be reaching out on your behalf. Maybe one day when I'm Laurence Tribe things will be different.

C. Given these dynamics, I would not be especially thrilled to have a student reach out to me asking me to call Judge A, B, and C, when I have not already pretty clearly invited them to solicit a request for calls, unless they are a very strong applicant applying to judges that no one else is applying to in non-competitive jurisdictions, for which the costs of my outreach is minimal.

D. There are a few reasons for C: For one thing, I (and many faculty I know) are somewhat-to-very hesitant to make unsolicited calls to judges we have never met or ever interacted with before. It feels presumptuous, and in my experience, it doesn't tend to yield anything that a well written email can't yield. In my experience, judges I don't know who read my email outreach and are interested will follow up to arrange a conversation. Perhaps I'd feel different if I were bringing Big Larry Tribe Energy to the recommendation process, but because I'm not, I am slightly put off by requests to cold-call judges I don't know, because I have to do the awkward "nope sorry" dance and that's never fun.

E. By contrast, for judges faculty have met/do know, and especially for judges for whom we've sent clerks in the past, you can basically be certain that if recommenders are motivated, we've already affirmatively reached out to the student(s) we are excited to push for that judge. It's very possible (*ahem* certain) that some recommenders aren't as motivated as I am, but I have to think it's very rare that a student asks a professor to call a well-regarded judge the professor already has a strong relationship with and that professor responds by saying, "Wow, I never thought of that, sure!"

F. The best thing you can do to advocate on your behalf is a) start this process early, b) make it as easy for your recommenders as possible, and c) be patient. As to each:

a) Building a rapport with recommenders takes time. My favorite students, and the ones I'm most motivated to help get a clerkship, are ones who have come to office hours multiple times to talk about non-careerist things. The ones that slightly annoy me show up out of the blue, many months to years after I last saw them, and two weeks before they're applying for something and asking for a rec letter. I realize this isn't helpful for rising 3Ls, but for the rest of you, start laying the foundation early.

b) The best way to solicit recommender support is to make it as easy for your recommenders as possible. Truly, this cannot be reiterated enough. This involves several components:

i. Thoughtful Judge-Targeting: If you show up with a thoughtfully composed list of 10-15 judges and ask me, "What do you think about these, and do you have suggestions for others that would be a good fit for me," that is code for: graciously tell me where I have a chance. If you do, I will be happy to sort through, tell you who'd I'd feel comfortable pushing you for, and give you other suggestions that I think might be a good fit. That is me graciously telling you where I think I can help you. Doing that shows you've done your homework and it makes it easy for me to decline to recommender you to judges where (a) I don't think you stand a chance; or (b) I am already pushing someone else.

ii. Comprehensive Application Package: Ahead of asking for a letter, send your recommender your full application materials: resume, transcript(s), probable writing sample, and, ideally, a few paragraphs on your background, your post-law school career ambitions, and how you see clerking fitting into that. It not only helps me assess the strength of your candidacy, but it makes every other aspect of that process easier: writing the recommendation letter, assessing best-fit judges, and bringing judges to your attention you may not even realize would be a good fit for you.

Relatedly, if you're applying on plan, let's have that conversation in February or March, not mid-May. (Good) recommendation letters are hard to write overnight, and I, at least, like to start early. Especially for plan candidates, it's a tremendous burden to keep track of which students I'm pushing to which judges, which emails I need to ensure arrive to which chambers, and figure out who I need to prioritize calling at 12:01 p.m. on plan day. Seriously, it's a lot of work on our end, too! Doing everything you can to make it easy for us is appreciated.

iii. Be patient. Many students who land excellent judges don't get them at 12:10 p.m. on plan day, or even months afterwards. Given the (crushing and IMHO borderline-criminal) student loan burdens many of you are about to face, a year or two in practice can be salutary, because the clerkship salary is fine but nothing spectacular, and you will have a much better sense of what you're doing with a bit of practice experience.

Good luck! I will probably come back and check this thread once or twice if anyone has generic, non-school specific follow-up questions.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to chime in here as someone on faculty at a T10 who has been writing recommendation letters and reaching out to judges this cycle. I'm admittedly on the *far* younger end of the faculty spectrum (so much so that once many many moons ago I was myself a law school applicant on TLS in its Dark Ages days!), so my views may be mildly idiosyncratic and/or not in line with the heavyweights of the academe, but:

The overarching thing to remember is that just as students are trying to manage their reputations with professors because they that the recommendation business can be a repeat player game, the same is true (x10) for faculty. And just as applying to judges is time-consuming for applicants, supporting applicants is time-consuming for professors. This creates a few dynamics that student applicants might not necessarily appreciate, and which I think bear explaining (this may be obvious for many of you, so apologies if so):

A. I only target one student per judge per cycle. My experience is pushing multiple students to the same judge at the same time hurts them all -- and my credibility, at the margins. That significantly constrains who I recommend, and when.

B. Because of A., I generally encourage my student-mentees to settle on a few top *realistic* choices, over a series of conversations, generally well in advance. Because I am strategic and don't want to waste my energy or disappoint my student-mentees, I also often collaborate with fellow faculty recommenders for Student X to make sure everyone's ducks are in a row that we are all focusing on Student X for Judge Y. That also sometimes means, at the margins, that even if I think you would be a great fit for Judge Y, if Professor Z already knows Judge Y well, and if Prof. Z has another student in mind they are pushing hard, Prof. Z is in the driver's seat, and I am going to defer to them. Alas, that means I won't be reaching out on your behalf. Maybe one day when I'm Laurence Tribe things will be different.

C. Given these dynamics, I would not be especially thrilled to have a student reach out to me asking me to call Judge A, B, and C, when I have not already pretty clearly invited them to solicit a request for calls, unless they are a very strong applicant applying to judges that no one else is applying to in non-competitive jurisdictions, for which the costs of my outreach is minimal.

D. There are a few reasons for C: For one thing, I (and many faculty I know) are somewhat-to-very hesitant to make unsolicited calls to judges we have never met or ever interacted with before. It feels presumptuous, and in my experience, it doesn't tend to yield anything that a well written email can't yield. In my experience, judges I don't know who read my email outreach and are interested will follow up to arrange a conversation. Perhaps I'd feel different if I were bringing Big Larry Tribe Energy to the recommendation process, but because I'm not, I am slightly put off by requests to cold-call judges I don't know, because I have to do the awkward "nope sorry" dance and that's never fun.

E. By contrast, for judges faculty have met/do know, and especially for judges for whom we've sent clerks in the past, you can basically be certain that if recommenders are motivated, we've already affirmatively reached out to the student(s) we are excited to push for that judge. It's very possible (*ahem* certain) that some recommenders aren't as motivated as I am, but I have to think it's very rare that a student asks a professor to call a well-regarded judge the professor already has a strong relationship with and that professor responds by saying, "Wow, I never thought of that, sure!"

F. The best thing you can do to advocate on your behalf is a) start this process early, b) make it as easy for your recommenders as possible, and c) be patient. As to each:

a) Building a rapport with recommenders takes time. My favorite students, and the ones I'm most motivated to help get a clerkship, are ones who have come to office hours multiple times to talk about non-careerist things. The ones that slightly annoy me show up out of the blue, many months to years after I last saw them, and two weeks before they're applying for something and asking for a rec letter. I realize this isn't helpful for rising 3Ls, but for the rest of you, start laying the foundation early.

b) The best way to solicit recommender support is to make it as easy for your recommenders as possible. Truly, this cannot be reiterated enough. This involves several components:

i. Thoughtful Judge-Targeting: If you show up with a thoughtfully composed list of 10-15 judges and ask me, "What do you think about these, and do you have suggestions for others that would be a good fit for me," that is code for: graciously tell me where I have a chance. If you do, I will be happy to sort through, tell you who'd I'd feel comfortable pushing you for, and give you other suggestions that I think might be a good fit. That is me graciously telling you where I think I can help you. Doing that shows you've done your homework and it makes it easy for me to decline to recommender you to judges where (a) I don't think you stand a chance; or (b) I am already pushing someone else.

ii. Comprehensive Application Package: Ahead of asking for a letter, send your recommender your full application materials: resume, transcript(s), probable writing sample, and, ideally, a few paragraphs on your background, your post-law school career ambitions, and how you see clerking fitting into that. It not only helps me assess the strength of your candidacy, but it makes every other aspect of that process easier: writing the recommendation letter, assessing best-fit judges, and bringing judges to your attention you may not even realize would be a good fit for you.

Relatedly, if you're applying on plan, let's have that conversation in February or March, not mid-May. (Good) recommendation letters are hard to write overnight, and I, at least, like to start early. Especially for plan candidates, it's a tremendous burden to keep track of which students I'm pushing to which judges, which emails I need to ensure arrive to which chambers, and figure out who I need to prioritize calling at 12:01 p.m. on plan day. Seriously, it's a lot of work on our end, too! Doing everything you can to make it easy for us is appreciated.

iii. Be patient. Many students who land excellent judges don't get them at 12:10 p.m. on plan day, or even months afterwards. Given the (crushing and IMHO borderline-criminal) student loan burdens many of you are about to face, a year or two in practice can be salutary, because the clerkship salary is fine but nothing spectacular, and you will have a much better sense of what you're doing with a bit of practice experience.

Good luck! I will probably come back and check this thread once or twice if anyone has generic, non-school specific follow-up questions.

Thanks for your insight! Do you have any thoughts as to how schools might do a better job of conveying the substance of your comment to students, especially those from non-traditional legal backgrounds? As a firstgen student that did really well at a T6 law school, your post was both incredibly informative and descriptive of a system that seems almost hopelessly opaque.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard from EDPA, especially McHugh?

[Anonymous User]

jealous to hear about clerkship offices/schools that are actually helpful.

Yeah, reading through this thread is most frustrating for that reason. I'm feeling really underwhelmed by my T30 CSO and our new clerkship committee (which as far I can tell doesn't actually do anything except discuss why our clerkship numbers are so bad).

[Anonymous User]

jealous to hear about clerkship offices/schools that are actually helpful.

[Anonymous User]

jealous to hear about clerkship offices/schools that are actually helpful.

[Anonymous User]

As long as we're comparing notes about clerkship offices and calls, NYU says that they arrange for faculty recommenders to call a couple judges on behalf of every rising 3L applicant (maybe as many as 4 judges, depending on the applicant and where they're applying). The rules on who you're allowed to list on your "top choices" for them to contact are pretty strict based on your GPA so that you don't waste your recommenders' time, and they don't tell you which judges they end up choosing for you. But they also say you're expected to work your networks to get outreach beyond that.

Was this policy from way back when or is it current? This certainly hasn't happened for me--perhaps because I didn't graduate at the top of my class, nor was I on Law Review. I've just been reaching out to my profs. directly.

[Anonymous User]

As long as we're comparing notes about clerkship offices and calls, NYU says that they arrange for faculty recommenders to call a couple judges on behalf of every rising 3L applicant (maybe as many as 4 judges, depending on the applicant and where they're applying). The rules on who you're allowed to list on your "top choices" for them to contact are pretty strict based on your GPA so that you don't waste your recommenders' time, and they don't tell you which judges they end up choosing for you. But they also say you're expected to work your networks to get outreach beyond that.

Was this policy from way back when or is it current? This certainly hasn't happened for me--perhaps because I didn't graduate at the top of my class, nor was I on Law Review. I've just been reaching out to my profs. directly.

I'm NYU c/o 2019 and this is complete news to me. Maybe it's been implemented this year because of the Plan.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard from Salas (D NJ?).

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

Pretty much my thinking. She also only hired people fresh out of law school, so, I really don't know at this point.

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

Pretty much my thinking. She also only hired people fresh out of law school, so, I really don't know at this point.

No need for hysterics. If you submitted a generic cover letter/writing sample to her, even if you are a successful T-14 student, why would she go with you over valedictorian from UKansas or another T-14 with actual ties?

[lavarman84]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

Pretty much my thinking. She also only hired people fresh out of law school, so, I really don't know at this point.

This sort of outlook is why you aren't getting a job like that. If you're a judge who only has one or two slots to fill, why hire a person who applied to you, and has no good reason to work for you, simply because they thought your clerkship would be easier to get? I can't speak to that specific judge, but judges in "non-competitive districts" often want people who have ties to the region or a good reason to be there. And to the extent they don't, they're usually making decisions based on their own idiosyncrasies, rather than prestige.

However, I can guarantee you that "all non-competitive districts" haven't extended offers.

[nixy]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

The bolded is incredibly narrow-minded (for one thing, there are in fact people from Kansas City at T14s, even HYS!). Chances are good judges in Kansas City actively try to avoid attitudes like this.

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

The bolded is incredibly narrow-minded (for one thing, there are in fact people from Kansas City at T14s, even HYS!). Chances are good judges in Kansas City actively try to avoid attitudes like this.

To the contrary, my post was more of a litmus test observation on how the market is moving, since the general/false hope consensus of everyone on the thread is that non-competitive districts aren't offering yet and that only feeder/COAs are. To the degree that it's a reflection on my attitude, it's pretty well established on this thread that most people prefer to work for elite judges/feeders/in big cities. Obviously, people with geographical ties are advantaged, but given that Kansas City, Kansas isn't the most well-known Kansas City in the country; one would assume less applicants.

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

Pretty much my thinking. She also only hired people fresh out of law school, so, I really don't know at this point.

No need for hysterics. If you submitted a generic cover letter/writing sample to her, even if you are a successful T-14 student, why would she go with you over valedictorian from UKansas or another T-14 with actual ties?

So I guess it's worth saying the obvious - if you don't go to HYS and have no geographic ties to an area, you're screwed.

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

Pretty much my thinking. She also only hired people fresh out of law school, so, I really don't know at this point.

This post is funny for two reasons:
1. The geographic snobbery
2. The geographic illiteracy in applying said snobbery - Kansas City, KS is basically in Missouri and a suburb of a bona fide major city, easily in the upper half of duty stations for generic applicants.

[Anonymous User]

Vratil (Kansas City in *Kansas*) has filled. I've honestly lost all hope - Kansas City, KS seems like the last place people would go for a clerkship, so I assume all non-competitive districts have extended offers.

Pretty much my thinking. She also only hired people fresh out of law school, so, I really don't know at this point.

This post is funny for two reasons:
1. The geographic snobbery
2. The geographic illiteracy in applying said snobbery - Kansas City, KS is basically in Missouri and a suburb of a bona fide major city, easily in the upper half of duty stations for generic applicants.

Hi, I'm from Kansas here, and KCK is def. different from KC (in Missouri). Sure, they are about ten minutes apart by car, but we view it as two different regions (especially since KC is known more for sports and in popular culture). We pretty much are the middle of nowhere. 'Nuff said. I don't take offense that the OP went with "geographic snobbery" - it's simply true that we're overlooked and not the first (or twentieth) stop for HYS people. And OP is certainly not illiterate in geography; maybe the most basic clerkship applicant is (in realizing the two are together) but KCK being a suburb of KC is enough to get you laughed at here.

[lavarman84]

No need for hysterics. If you submitted a generic cover letter/writing sample to her, even if you are a successful T-14 student, why would she go with you over valedictorian from UKansas or another T-14 with actual ties?

So I guess it's worth saying the obvious - if you don't go to HYS and have no geographic ties to an area, you're screwed.

That's wrong. But you need something else going for you. I went to a law school outside of the t14 and had no geographic ties to areas where I got interviews and offers. What I had going for me was either something interesting on my resume that lined up with the idiosyncrasies of the judges or connections. If all you're sending is a generic cover letter and a generic resume, yeah, you're probably not going to get the job. There's nothing that stands out about it. And frankly, speaking solely for my judges, the same would be true for applicants who went to HYS.