How Will Judges View Credit/Fail Grades? Forum

[Logicalfallacy]

My school is offering for students to convert all of their final semester grades into credit/fail due to coronavirus. I'm considering taking the option because if I do, I'm a lock for graduating with honors (because these grades won't be calculated for honors purposes), but if I don't and I bomb my finals I could compromise that.

The only thing holding me back is I'm wondering how judges might view the credit/fail grades in my last semester if not everyone in my graduating class ends up taking this option? I obviously expect to get the credit for all of my courses and still put effort into my exams... I'm a 3L if that makes any difference.

[nixy]

I really can’t imagine any judge holding P/F grades during the coronavirus against you, and if one does, you don’t want to work for them.

[Anonymous User]

Can u chose which classes to convert or do u have to convert all?

[ksm6969]

Can u chose which classes to convert or do u have to convert all?

at most schools, You can chose which classes. The worst is that at some schools you can choose after seeing your grades, which means getting a pass is just saying you didnt do well. At others you have to chose before seeing the grades.

[Anonymous User]

Can u chose which classes to convert or do u have to convert all?

We can choose which but have to choose before we see our “real” grades. I just worry if I pick and choose it looks weirder than converting all.

[Anonymous User]

I am at Harvard, which is currently letting us choose whether to take any or all of our classes pass/fail or the normal system. I think this is different than SLS and Cornell that will make everyone be pass/fail. Just a 2L, but I am thinking that Judges (especially feeders and more competitive COA and big name district judges) will look at classes that were taken ~optionally~ as Credit/no credit as not great, and perhaps even like a regular P, absent extenuating circumstances. At least that’s how I would see it. I get the feeling this new system is the worst of all possible outcomes since corp folks or 3Ls with everything lined up will likely the credit no credit option, and I assume this will just tighten the curve since all the people gunning for Hs will take the grades option

[nixy]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

[jackshunger]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because clerkships are already competitive as it is, and judges want the best. It's a lot easier to tell who is the best at a school with real grades as opposed to passes

[Anonymous User]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because YHS gunners are going to not take the option absent extenuating personal circumstances. So, I’m guessing—all else being equal—the transcript with 4 semesters of great grades, or good grades, looks better than 3 semesters and a pass/fail semester. FWIW, this is in regards to my situation personally, where i have no extenuating circumstances, a home to head to for the rest of the semester, a relatively healthy family, etc. Obviously I would imagine Judges would be more sympathetic to a less privileged person; but for me I assume it would look like just coasting (which is what it would be, for me personally). Also i think this would matter less for a later clerkship application cycle, where people have 5 semesters of grades instead of 3. These are just assumptions though and I’d love to hear what AIII clerks think

[nixy]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because clerkships are already competitive as it is, and judges want the best. It's a lot easier to tell who is the best at a school with real grades as opposed to passes

oh good god.

Judges aren't going to know whether you have extenuating circumstances, you're immuno-compromised or someone in your family is, you have a family to go home to, or what. They're not going to think "well, I WOULD be interested in this person, but they OBVIOUSLY coasted during the coronavirus, so NO THANK YOU." Judges are (in many places) *shutting down all court hearings right now.* They're aware it's not normal times.

(Also the OP who asked this *does* have 5 semesters of grades, if you think that matters.)

[jackshunger]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because clerkships are already competitive as it is, and judges want the best. It's a lot easier to tell who is the best at a school with real grades as opposed to passes

oh good god.

Judges aren't going to know whether you have extenuating circumstances, you're immuno-compromised or someone in your family is, you have a family to go home to, or what. They're not going to think "well, I WOULD be interested in this person, but they OBVIOUSLY coasted during the coronavirus, so NO THANK YOU." Judges are (in many places) *shutting down all court hearings right now.* They're aware it's not normal times.

(Also the OP who asked this *does* have 5 semesters of grades, if you think that matters.)

They don't have to think you obviously coasted, but when they are hiring 3 people and have 500 applications to get through, it's a lot easier to make informed decisions about people with actual grades.

[nixy]

Three semesters is enough to make an informed decision. Pre-plan, plenty of judges made decisions on less.

And if you’re looking at the really competitive judges, you’re going to need a connection to get noticed anyway.

[jackshunger]

Three semesters is enough to make an informed decision. Pre-plan, plenty of judges made decisions on less.

And if you’re looking at the really competitive judges, you’re going to need a connection to get noticed anyway.

There are also plenty of judges that make decisions after 1L as well. While I agree that this isn't going to affect 2Ls as much as 1Ls, it's still going to have an important impact.

[Logicalfallacy]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because clerkships are already competitive as it is, and judges want the best. It's a lot easier to tell who is the best at a school with real grades as opposed to passes

oh good god.

Judges aren't going to know whether you have extenuating circumstances, you're immuno-compromised or someone in your family is, you have a family to go home to, or what. They're not going to think "well, I WOULD be interested in this person, but they OBVIOUSLY coasted during the coronavirus, so NO THANK YOU." Judges are (in many places) *shutting down all court hearings right now.* They're aware it's not normal times.

(Also the OP who asked this *does* have 5 semesters of grades, if you think that matters.)

That's my issue. How would judges know? If I had to put in my cover letter why I opted to take the pass/fail credits, then it just seems to put emphasis on that aspect of my application, but if I don't, why would they assume I didn't have personal circumstances impacting that decision? And also does pass/fail really look that bad if I'm still graduating with honors anyway? Also FWIW I'm not planning to apply to feeders.

[Logicalfallacy]

I am at Harvard, which is currently letting us choose whether to take any or all of our classes pass/fail or the normal system. I think this is different than SLS and Cornell that will make everyone be pass/fail. Just a 2L, but I am thinking that Judges (especially feeders and more competitive COA and big name district judges) will look at classes that were taken ~optionally~ as Credit/no credit as not great, and perhaps even like a regular P, absent extenuating circumstances. At least that’s how I would see it. I get the feeling this new system is the worst of all possible outcomes since corp folks or 3Ls with everything lined up will likely the credit no credit option, and I assume this will just tighten the curve since all the people gunning for Hs will take the grades option

I don't see how it would impact the curve. I would assume that profs would just give everyone in the class grades regularly based on the curve, and then people who opt-in to the credit/no credit will just have those grades converted afterwards. In other words it will still be normal DS-LP distribution up front and everyone who opts for regular grades will stay the same.

Granted I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I did have a class that did this in the past because an exam got passed around to some students before the test and so the professor said if you end up with a P or LP you could opt to convert it to credit/no credit.

[lavarman84]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because YHS gunners are going to not take the option absent extenuating personal circumstances. So, I’m guessing—all else being equal—the transcript with 4 semesters of great grades, or good grades, looks better than 3 semesters and a pass/fail semester. FWIW, this is in regards to my situation personally, where i have no extenuating circumstances, a home to head to for the rest of the semester, a relatively healthy family, etc. Obviously I would imagine Judges would be more sympathetic to a less privileged person; but for me I assume it would look like just coasting (which is what it would be, for me personally). Also i think this would matter less for a later clerkship application cycle, where people have 5 semesters of grades instead of 3. These are just assumptions though and I’d love to hear what AIII clerks think

I wouldn't care (if I noticed). But I didn't clerk for a feeder.

[BansheeScream]

I could see if you wanted SCOTUS or a very competitive feeder AND it truly came down to you and another student from your school with equal credentials that it might matter. If they had an extra semester of top grades in classes that matter (fed courts, admin, etc.) that it could make a slight difference with some very grade selective judges.

With that said, if you’re competitive for a clerkship and a judge interviews you and asks why you took the semester pass/fail, I would assume you could honestly say with the stress of everything you just made a game time decision and that would be enough. Also, if you’re otherwise competitive, one semester is unlikely to matter. I took half my 2L off from classes to work for the DOJ and applied/got interviews with judges that required 4 semesters of grades when I had 3 plus 12 credits of p/f externship.

[Anonymous User]

So then shouldn’t I just take CR/ No Cr if I have 3 semesters of good to very good grades from HLS? I have hard classes this semester and will likely have a lower GPA then my first 3 semesters (none of which I took a particularly easy course load though). I don’t really have a good chance at SCOTUS, so if I can take the semester to just cruise without hurting my career prospects it’d be nice

[nixy]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because clerkships are already competitive as it is, and judges want the best. It's a lot easier to tell who is the best at a school with real grades as opposed to passes

oh good god.

Judges aren't going to know whether you have extenuating circumstances, you're immuno-compromised or someone in your family is, you have a family to go home to, or what. They're not going to think "well, I WOULD be interested in this person, but they OBVIOUSLY coasted during the coronavirus, so NO THANK YOU." Judges are (in many places) *shutting down all court hearings right now.* They're aware it's not normal times.

(Also the OP who asked this *does* have 5 semesters of grades, if you think that matters.)

That's my issue. How would judges know? If I had to put in my cover letter why I opted to take the pass/fail credits, then it just seems to put emphasis on that aspect of my application, but if I don't, why would they assume I didn't have personal circumstances impacting that decision? And also does pass/fail really look that bad if I'm still graduating with honors anyway? Also FWIW I'm not planning to apply to feeders.

I don’t think they would assume you didn’t have personal circumstances impacting your decision, and I don’t think you would have to explain the decision in a cover letter (and you shouldn’t, because it looks defensive and bad to be apologizing for something in a cover letter). Judges are human beings who are all living through this right now. I don’t think it’s going to be an issue (and I was an AIII clerk, if anyone cares).

If you’re a 1L and a judge doesn’t hire you because you only have 1 semester of grades, you can apply again later (also in theory the plan is supposed to prevent this, no?).

[jackshunger]

You really think judges are going to disapprove of people taking the P/F option during the coronavirus?? Why?

Because clerkships are already competitive as it is, and judges want the best. It's a lot easier to tell who is the best at a school with real grades as opposed to passes

oh good god.

Judges aren't going to know whether you have extenuating circumstances, you're immuno-compromised or someone in your family is, you have a family to go home to, or what. They're not going to think "well, I WOULD be interested in this person, but they OBVIOUSLY coasted during the coronavirus, so NO THANK YOU." Judges are (in many places) *shutting down all court hearings right now.* They're aware it's not normal times.

(Also the OP who asked this *does* have 5 semesters of grades, if you think that matters.)

That's my issue. How would judges know? If I had to put in my cover letter why I opted to take the pass/fail credits, then it just seems to put emphasis on that aspect of my application, but if I don't, why would they assume I didn't have personal circumstances impacting that decision? And also does pass/fail really look that bad if I'm still graduating with honors anyway? Also FWIW I'm not planning to apply to feeders.

I don’t think they would assume you didn’t have personal circumstances impacting your decision, and I don’t think you would have to explain the decision in a cover letter (and you shouldn’t, because it looks defensive and bad to be apologizing for something in a cover letter). Judges are human beings who are all living through this right now. I don’t think it’s going to be an issue (and I was an AIII clerk, if anyone cares).

If you’re a 1L and a judge doesn’t hire you because you only have 1 semester of grades, you can apply again later (also in theory the plan is supposed to prevent this, no?).

This assumes that you even get past an initial transcript and resume screen to where they look through your cover letter.

There are also plenty of judges that do not follow the plan, and from talking with law school friends who would know, more and more aren't following the plan this year (following the trend of the plan breaking down within 2 years every time there is a movement to push it).

[The Lsat Airbender]

*clerk going over promising resumes with her judge, pulls up transcript to see how someone's 3.91 at HLS breaks down*

"This next candidate has 5 P's, 14 H's, 3 DS's and... took three classes CR/NCR in spring 2020?!"

"Hmph, might as well have gone to Cornell. Throw it in the garbage with the others."

[jackshunger]

*clerk going over promising resumes with her judge, pulls up transcript to see how someone's 3.91 at HLS breaks down*

"This next candidate has 5 P's, 14 H's, 3 DS's and... took three classes CR/NCR in spring 2020?!"

"Hmph, might as well have gone to Cornell. Throw it in the garbage with the others."

HLS doesn't have GPAs, so they would have to look at transcripts. Whereupon they see 5 P, 14 Hs, 3 DSs and 3 CRs, compare that to the other 20 people that have 6Ps, 15Hs, and 4 Ds or whatever and go with them instead.

Moreover, this matters far more for people trying to apply to off-plan judges, where your 3Hs, 1 DS, 3CRs look far worse when compared to your fellow classmates 6 Hs, 1 DS or whatever a good 1st year at HLS would look like.

[The Lsat Airbender]

HLS doesn't have GPAs,

lol

so they would have to look at transcripts. Whereupon they see 5 P, 14 Hs, 3 DSs and 3 CRs, compare that to the other 20 people that have 6Ps, 15Hs, and 4 Ds or whatever and go with them instead.

lol

Moreover, this matters far more for people trying to apply to off-plan judges, where your 3Hs, 1 DS, 3CRs look far worse when compared to your fellow classmates 6 Hs, 1 DS or whatever a good 1st year at HLS would look like.

The former student in your example still has the "straight H's with some DS" halo for any reasonable reviewer. As was said upthread, the rare judge that actually asks "yeah, they're solidly magna, but what are they hiding behind those CR's???" will probably be mollified by a strong rec from the right professor, which you need anyway.

[jackshunger]

HLS doesn't have GPAs,

lol

so they would have to look at transcripts. Whereupon they see 5 P, 14 Hs, 3 DSs and 3 CRs, compare that to the other 20 people that have 6Ps, 15Hs, and 4 Ds or whatever and go with them instead.

lol

Moreover, this matters far more for people trying to apply to off-plan judges, where your 3Hs, 1 DS, 3CRs look far worse when compared to your fellow classmates 6 Hs, 1 DS or whatever a good 1st year at HLS would look like.

The former student in your example still has the "straight H's with some DS" halo for any reasonable reviewer. As was said upthread, the rare judge that actually asks "yeah, they're solidly magna, but what are they hiding behind those CR's???" will probably be mollified by a strong rec from the right professor, which you need anyway.

Or more likely, they never get to the point where a judge cares about their rec because they've tossed out their application to look at their perceived better competitors with an actual track record.

[nixy]

You are way overthinking this. The vast majority of judges are really not going to care, as long as the grades that you do have are good. Someone who’s hiring early already isn’t as worried about an applicant’s “proven track record” or they’d wait to see post-1L grades. And the occasional judge that might care - you can’t plan for every judicial idiosyncrasy.

In any case, if you have a choice about whether to get letter grades or not, and you feel this strongly about it, then pick the letter grades. If you don’t have the choice, there’s no point in worrying about it (and I’m sure that the grading policy will be marked on your transcript).

You’re a 1L who wants to apply, right? Why are you so certain that all judges see this the way that you do?