CoA clerk taking questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Current COA clerk taking questions. Shoot.

[Anonymous User]

Current applicant. Do applicants without a connection to your chambers ever get interviews? What about cold applicants without a district court clerkship? Also, would a public interest litigation fellowship be valued in hiring determinations (in a vacuum and as compared to another applicant with a standard biglaw stint)?

[Anonymous User]

Current applicant. Do applicants without a connection to your chambers ever get interviews? What about cold applicants without a district court clerkship? Also, would a public interest litigation fellowship be valued in hiring determinations (in a vacuum and as compared to another applicant with a standard biglaw stint)?

I'm not the OP and not trying to steal his thunder, but I figured it could help to have more than one perspective here. As you seem aware, this will differ by chambers. With my COA Judge, I'd say the four most important things to have in order are 1) a personal connection, 2) ties to the area, 3) military service (my Judge is a vet), and 4) a prior clerkship (D. Ct. or SSC). I'd say 80% of my Judge's COA clerks have had clerkship experience (but that's a guess). So yes, it's possible to get the job without a connection, but it's a lot harder.

Obviously, what's important to each judge will depend on the person. Some don't want clerks with prior clerkship experience (ex. Jerry Smith). Some don't care about ties to the area.

[Anonymous User]

Starting a COA clerkship next year.

Any tips for how to hit the ground running?

[Anonymous User]

Current applicant. Do applicants without a connection to your chambers ever get interviews? What about cold applicants without a district court clerkship? Also, would a public interest litigation fellowship be valued in hiring determinations (in a vacuum and as compared to another applicant with a standard biglaw stint)?

Yes applicants without a connection do get hired, but as I’m sure you suspect hiring is dominated by those with some sort of connection. Prior clerkship or work experience is definitely highly valued, but is not mandatory.

Depending on the PI stint, that could actually be a negative for our chambers.

[Anonymous User]

Starting a COA clerkship next year.

Any tips for how to hit the ground running?

OP here again (that was me above).

I don’t think there’s that much to do frankly. Maybe read some good legal writing books, and generally pay attention to the fact that standards of review are real and often determinative.

Also be prepared to never rely on the briefing. It’s largely complete garbage, so make sure your research skills are in good shape.

[Anonymous User]

Current applicant. Do applicants without a connection to your chambers ever get interviews? What about cold applicants without a district court clerkship? Also, would a public interest litigation fellowship be valued in hiring determinations (in a vacuum and as compared to another applicant with a standard biglaw stint)?

Yes applicants without a connection do get hired, but as I’m sure you suspect hiring is dominated by those with some sort of connection. Prior clerkship or work experience is definitely highly valued, but is not mandatory.

Depending on the PI stint, that could actually be a negative for our chambers.

Hi previous question asker here. Do you mind elaborating on what types of PI fellowships would be potentially detrimental? For instance, impact litigation, something in local government, a specific subject area maybe?

Also, on an unrelated note, what are your thoughts on long v. short cover letters?

[Anonymous User]

Starting a COA clerkship next year.

Any tips for how to hit the ground running?

OP here again (that was me above).

I don’t think there’s that much to do frankly. Maybe read some good legal writing books, and generally pay attention to the fact that standards of review are real and often determinative.

Also be prepared to never rely on the briefing. It’s largely complete garbage, so make sure your research skills are in good shape.

Not OP COA Clerk here

Did you clerk at the D. Ct. level? I've been pleasantly surprised by the briefing, but that's because the briefing I received at the D. Ct. level was typically awful. The COA briefing at least usually includes the major, relevant cases (at least some of them). At the D. Ct. level, we were lucky to get even that.

Also, on an unrelated note, what are your thoughts on long v. short cover letters?

Avoid long cover letters unless you have a reason for it. If you have an atypical background or ties to the location/judge that you want to play up (or a special reason for why that judge), go for it. If it's just you reciting your resume, don't do it. I don't read cover letters until after I scan the resume, so rehashing your resume won't earn you points. On the other hand, if you make a grammatical or spelling error, I'll probably catch it, which might hurt you.

[mjb447]

I did both types of clerkship and found both to be true - COA briefing was better than D. Ct. briefing, but COA briefing still usually wasn't sufficient to answer the questions at issue.

This is pretty standard advice, but read (or re-read) your judge's prior opinions (particularly concurrences and dissents) to get a sense of their writing style, how they use various sources, and what they find interesting. And yeah, familiarizing yourself with the standards of review (and maybe appellate waiver/forfeiture) might be useful.

I'd disfavor a long cover letter. In addition to the greater risk of a typo, it also might make it seem like you have trouble being concise or focusing on the most important facts. Things like local ties or "why that judge" reasons usually don't need more than a sentence or two to serve the primary purpose of a cover letter, which is getting the judge interested enough to interview you.

I got all my interviews without ties to chambers or the area, but they can certainly help.

[Anonymous User]

Starting a COA clerkship next year.

Any tips for how to hit the ground running?
Top

Not OP. I was given two pieces of "unusual" advice upon my hiring, which was a year-plus out: 1) Get to know the court and its culture, and 2) become familiar with fiddly things like basic jurisdictional rules and standards of review. Each COA is idiosyncratic, and has its own lingo, workflow, and culture. Feeling comfortable with that aspect makes the rest so much easier!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. If the PI fellowship was something very activisty then we would not look kindly on that. Government fellowships would be fine, and likely a positive.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. If the PI fellowship was something very activisty then we would not look kindly on that. Government fellowships would be fine, and likely a positive.

Can you give examples of how you'd define "activisty?" Is that based on organization or issue? As in a privacy rights fellowship at ACLU versus a litigation-based fellowship with, say, a direct services organization (e.g., XYZ Legal Aid/Services) but your work focused exclusively on reproductive justice.

Also, any guidance for transfer student applicants?

[Elston Gunn]

OP here. If the PI fellowship was something very activisty then we would not look kindly on that. Government fellowships would be fine, and likely a positive.

Can you give examples of how you'd define "activisty?" Is that based on organization or issue? As in a privacy rights fellowship at ACLU versus a litigation-based fellowship with, say, a direct services organization (e.g., XYZ Legal Aid/Services) but your work focused exclusively on reproductive justice.

Also, any guidance for transfer student applicants?

Respectfully, it sounds like OP’s judge is probably not a good fit for you (and probably not someone you’d want to work for if you have these kind of inclinations). But lots of judges would be very happy to hire people with these types of backgrounds, so don’t worry about it too much. (My judge for example typically hires one person on an apparent academic track, one person on a biglaw track, and one person on a PI track. Not rigid, but that’s roughly how it shakes out.)

[nixy]

Yeah, I think the "activisty" thing is just an example of how clerkship hiring is idiosyncratic. That judge doesn't like that experience; other judges will love it. Some judges love FedSoc candidates and some don't. There is no way that you can make yourself appealing to every judge out there, so your best bet is to be the best you that you can be (as cheesy as that sounds) so you can appeal to the right judge.

(Sorry to hijack, OP)

[Anonymous User]

How has clerking impacted job options? Roughly the same as before you clerked?

[Anonymous User]

^+1 on this. Interested to hear your perspective on hiring, especially re: BigLaw or Main Justice.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. If the PI fellowship was something very activisty then we would not look kindly on that. Government fellowships would be fine, and likely a positive.

Can you give examples of how you'd define "activisty?" Is that based on organization or issue? As in a privacy rights fellowship at ACLU versus a litigation-based fellowship with, say, a direct services organization (e.g., XYZ Legal Aid/Services) but your work focused exclusively on reproductive justice.

Also, any guidance for transfer student applicants?

OP here. Both the examples you gave would be significant negatives in our chambers. But clerkship hiring is indeed very Judge specific and I have no doubt other CoA judges might look favorably upon it.

[Anonymous User]

OP here again. No specific advice for transfers, but given the range of schools students normally want to transfer from, your 1L grades should put you at literally #1 in your class ro have a realistic chance, absent connections to the judge.

As far as employment, firm options are the same as before I clerked, with the caveat that firms like Kellogg and Susman that require clerkships are now on the table. However, to have a shot at those firms you still need to be T14 top 10% even with the clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

OP here again. No specific advice for transfers, but given the range of schools students normally want to transfer from, your 1L grades should put you at literally #1 in your class ro have a realistic chance, absent connections to the judge.

As far as employment, firm options are the same as before I clerked, with the caveat that firms like Kellogg and Susman that require clerkships are now on the table. However, to have a shot at those firms you still need to be T14 top 10% even with the clerkship.

For those of us who are T14 and top 10%, does COA clerking confer a hiring advantage? Like, does it increase the odds you're competitive for firms you didn't get at OCI?

[Anonymous User]

I have a dumb question.

Does the government pay/direct bill your lodging and mileage for hearing oral arguments? If not that seems like the costs could add up quickly.

If they do pay, is it normally a decent hotel or stipend?

[Quichelorraine]

Does the government pay/direct bill your lodging and mileage for hearing oral arguments? If not that seems like the costs could add up quickly.

If they do pay, is it normally a decent hotel or stipend?

Yes. I don't know if it works the same way everywhere, but we were covered up to the set "federal rate." Some hotels knew what that was and would simply charge it; we could stay at other hotels so long as they were at or below the federal rate (however, if I remember correctly, we had to book directly and couldn't use sites like Expedia). I was definitely able to stay in decent hotels, although some last-minute trips were tough.

Transportation was also covered. I've heard this part is idiosyncratic among circuits (i.e., how you book air travel, how mileage is calculated), though, so there's probably some variation, especially in the regions where major OA travel is expected--the Ninth, especially.

Lastly, we had a daily per diem on top of everything. That was pretty nice--no worrying about saving receipts. Some judges did not want their clerks to use the per diem, though, and insisted on itemizing.

Note that, at least in my circuit, all of the above was reimbursed, not paid by the court upfront. Reimbursements were pretty quick but I can imagine this might be tough in certain circumstances.

[Anonymous User]

Does the government pay/direct bill your lodging and mileage for hearing oral arguments? If not that seems like the costs could add up quickly.

If they do pay, is it normally a decent hotel or stipend?

Yes. I don't know if it works the same way everywhere, but we were covered up to the set "federal rate." Some hotels knew what that was and would simply charge it; we could stay at other hotels so long as they were at or below the federal rate (however, if I remember correctly, we had to book directly and couldn't use sites like Expedia). I was definitely able to stay in decent hotels, although some last-minute trips were tough.

Transportation was also covered. I've heard this part is idiosyncratic among circuits (i.e., how you book air travel, how mileage is calculated), though, so there's probably some variation, especially in the regions where major OA travel is expected--the Ninth, especially.

Lastly, we had a daily per diem on top of everything. That was pretty nice--no worrying about saving receipts. Some judges did not want their clerks to use the per diem, though, and insisted on itemizing.

Note that, at least in my circuit, all of the above was reimbursed, not paid by the court upfront. Reimbursements were pretty quick but I can imagine this might be tough in certain circumstances.

Ninth Circuit clerk here. We get a government credit card that we charge airfare and hotels to. The hotels range from midrange to five-star depending on the city (the Seattle accommodations are particularly nice). Depending on your judge and on how the public rates compare to the government rate, you may also be allowed to charge airfare and hotels to your personal card to earn points. Per diems also vary by city and are generous—enough to cover a good sit-down meal each night (although most of us ate cheap and pocketed the cash). The circuit turns around reimbursements within a couple weeks. I have always had my reimbursement in hand before the government credit card bill came due for a trip.

[Quichelorraine]

Ninth Circuit clerk here. We get a government credit card that we charge airfare and hotels to.

This is great to know; I suspected this might be the case for more travel-heavy circuits.

[Anonymous User]

Does the government pay/direct bill your lodging and mileage for hearing oral arguments? If not that seems like the costs could add up quickly.

If they do pay, is it normally a decent hotel or stipend?

Yes. I don't know if it works the same way everywhere, but we were covered up to the set "federal rate." Some hotels knew what that was and would simply charge it; we could stay at other hotels so long as they were at or below the federal rate (however, if I remember correctly, we had to book directly and couldn't use sites like Expedia). I was definitely able to stay in decent hotels, although some last-minute trips were tough.

Transportation was also covered. I've heard this part is idiosyncratic among circuits (i.e., how you book air travel, how mileage is calculated), though, so there's probably some variation, especially in the regions where major OA travel is expected--the Ninth, especially.

Lastly, we had a daily per diem on top of everything. That was pretty nice--no worrying about saving receipts. Some judges did not want their clerks to use the per diem, though, and insisted on itemizing.

Note that, at least in my circuit, all of the above was reimbursed, not paid by the court upfront. Reimbursements were pretty quick but I can imagine this might be tough in certain circumstances.

Ninth Circuit clerk here. We get a government credit card that we charge airfare and hotels to. The hotels range from midrange to five-star depending on the city (the Seattle accommodations are particularly nice). Depending on your judge and on how the public rates compare to the government rate, you may also be allowed to charge airfare and hotels to your personal card to earn points. Per diems also vary by city and are generous—enough to cover a good sit-down meal each night (although most of us ate cheap and pocketed the cash). The circuit turns around reimbursements within a couple weeks. I have always had my reimbursement in hand before the government credit card bill came due for a trip.

This is great to know! Excited to rack up my hotel points for the next two years.

[Anonymous User]

Ninth Circuit clerk here. We get a government credit card that we charge airfare and hotels to.

This varies by chambers -- I am also on the Ninth and no one in our chambers has the government card.