Getting Fired or Let Go From Clerkship Forum

[Quichelorraine]

Why don't you out the fucking judge? Is this some kind of pretentious inner circle bullshit you're pulling? Stop abusing the anon function.

While I don't think this is an abuse of the anon function at all--and certainly didn't intend any "pretentious inner circle bullshit"--the SDNY judge being referred to is almost certainly Judge Berman.

See: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p6719400

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p9682138

No personal experience with him at all.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking from immediate personal experience, I can assure you that there is life after leaving a clerkship early.

The key is having a clear, intelligible explanation for why things did not work out with the judge. Being fired, in my opinion, is *significantly less preferable* to leaving on your own terms. You'll have to report being fired/let go on virtually any job application in the future, so avoiding that is a generally preferable bet.

What I would recommend is reaching out to a trusted mentor and explaining the situation; failing that, consider contacting someone at your future firm (maybe a partner you hit it off with?) and taking their temperature about how things would be perceived.

This is not the end of the world (though I sure as hell thought it was). In fact, reclaiming some autonomy over the situation will probably do you a world of good.

[Anonymous User]

can the above anon somehow their the experience on talking to the partner and how he pulled it off. any chance you can contact me without either of us outing each other?

[Anonymous User]

If this happens to you, but the official file reflects a resignation, is it something that you have to disclose on Character and Fitness if the form asks if you have been fired or asked to resign "for cause"?

[Anonymous User]

This is pretty unheard of, but it does happen. A couple of ideas:


Fourth, you might simply hire a writing coach. I know it can be costly, but the problem in a clerkship is likely that you're writing is incoherent. That's likely an organizational thing that can be fixed by simply learning the structure of legal writing. Nipping this in the bud now might save your legal career down the road.

Have you done this? If so, do you have someone you'd recommend? I'd be interested in this. I'm not the OP btw.

[Anonymous User]

This thread makes me scared of clerking.

[Anonymous User]

This thread makes me scared of clerking.

This is rare—maybe not as rare as some folks who have posted think, but even if it happens more than most of us think that doesn't mean it happens often. In two years of clerking I never firsthand heard of this happening to anyone. Every now and then you might hear a whisper that some judge or other once fired a clerk in the distant past, but there's barely even a handful that anyone claims have fired more than one (though there are a couple out there with truly awful reputations (not on my courts)). Given the wide range of abilities and personalities among even top-performing law students (yes, it's possible to be a top-performing law student and an awful clerk, not to mention an awful human being) and the limitations of clerkship applications and a short interview, I'd be shocked if most judges didn't at some point fire at least one clerk. Even if that were true, firings could still be, and I believe are, quite rare.

My experience is limited to circuit courts. Based on a couple of the comments, maybe firing is more common on district courts, where it's harder to circumvent a clerk that isn't working out. With more clerks and fewer cases, circuit court judges can do more to work around a problematic clerk. But again, that wouldn't mean it happens often at the district court level.

[Anonymous User]

Are you sure your Judge may fire you? I would not quit, and I would ask the Judge straight up if she is thinking of firing you, because I asked my Judge that question. He was shocked. I would ask for ways to improve too.

I can empathize with you. My clerkship has been difficult. The reason why I asked my Judge if he was going to fire me is because all he did was complain about the work I produced. However, he makes minor changes to the opinions I write for him. I feel he exaggerates my “mistakes.” It has been a miserable experience, leading me to question what I have ever been told I am good at and whether I should change careers. It is important for a young attorney to find his or her identity. A judge’s opinion of you is paramount. I appreciate constructive criticism, but you also need to know your strengths. His staff is cruel. Bullies. But I will not quit as much as I want to and as difficult as it is. Hang in there if you can, and Tak to your Judge.

Hi all, I'm wondering about people who have gotten fired from a clerkship and how they've managed afterwards. My Judge has sat me down a few times and told me that my work is not what s/he expected. I think we fundamentally disagree about a lot of things too. I've essentially been on probation for a month or two but I think my time is running out. I have received hints from other people in chambers that the Judge has considered letting me go.

Should I just quit before I get fired? I don't think the Judge wants to ruin my career but s/he doesn't want to work together anymore. Am I just screwed? How will this hurt my job prospects? Do I need to tell my firms (or other future employers) what happened if the Judge doesn't proactively reach out to them?

I just haven't heard about a lot of people getting fired and I don't know what to do or how best to control the damage of this. I don't think I can salvage the situation to be honest (and not sure I want to work with someone who does not want to work with me).

[tier4_partner]

To be completely honest. It sounds like you’re the problem. Not the judge. When a partne, supervisor, judge has an established style - they don’t have to adjust to their underling. The associate, employee or clerk has to adjust to them. There is an important lesson to be learned here - you’re a junior lawyer and you have a lot to learn. And your style doesn’t matter very much just yet. One day it will. But not right now. Do what you can to adjust to the rhythm of the judge and avoid losing the job. As a young partner at a large mid-sized firm - i would not consider hiring someone fired during a clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

Current clerk here in the exact same position. Judge has sat me down multiple times to say that I have to prove I deserve to be here and that I start showing my commitment to working here. It’s a one year job, I have a life outside of this (house, kids, family), I get my work done (not to his/her standards apparently) what more committal does s/he want? The last conversation s/he said if s/he hadn’t been out of town the week before I would have been let go! This was 3 weeks ago. Judge 100% exaggerates my mistakes. I’ve seen the other law clerk make far more egregious ones and it’s gone almost completely unnoticed by the judge. Not mine. The judge usually waits until I’m the last one in the office at around 7-730pm to come into my office and talk to me about these “concerns.” I’m 4 months in. The first conversation was at the end of week 3. This judge is also fairly new so there hasn’t been a huge number of clerks come through the door, and the judge is slowly raising the standards for who is “qualified.” I feel like I’m under a microscope, I’m terrified every day that I’m one typo away from being fired on the spot. I’m with OP. I don’t know how to get out of this situation, but I don’t think I can stay much longer under these conditions. Just trying to minimize the damage on the way out. For me, the most incredible part about this is that even if it’s not about the work quality, product, etc, and it’s solely about personality fit and incompatibility, if this were ANY other legal job, you leave. No questions. But I feel like I’ve hurt my career by taking this job. Which btw was accepted pretty much as a 1L (5 years ago) when you know literally nothing about the practice of law and certainly not about a clerkship. So, no big advice, just wanted to share my story and let you know that it is more common than you think.

[HillandHollow]

Current clerk here in the exact same position. Judge has sat me down multiple times to say that I have to prove I deserve to be here and that I start showing my commitment to working here. It’s a one year job, I have a life outside of this (house, kids, family), I get my work done (not to his/her standards apparently) what more committal does s/he want? The last conversation s/he said if s/he hadn’t been out of town the week before I would have been let go! This was 3 weeks ago. Judge 100% exaggerates my mistakes. I’ve seen the other law clerk make far more egregious ones and it’s gone almost completely unnoticed by the judge. Not mine. The judge usually waits until I’m the last one in the office at around 7-730pm to come into my office and talk to me about these “concerns.” I’m 4 months in. The first conversation was at the end of week 3. This judge is also fairly new so there hasn’t been a huge number of clerks come through the door, and the judge is slowly raising the standards for who is “qualified.” I feel like I’m under a microscope, I’m terrified every day that I’m one typo away from being fired on the spot. I’m with OP. I don’t know how to get out of this situation, but I don’t think I can stay much longer under these conditions. Just trying to minimize the damage on the way out. For me, the most incredible part about this is that even if it’s not about the work quality, product, etc, and it’s solely about personality fit and incompatibility, if this were ANY other legal job, you leave. No questions. But I feel like I’ve hurt my career by taking this job. Which btw was accepted pretty much as a 1L (5 years ago) when you know literally nothing about the practice of law and certainly not about a clerkship. So, no big advice, just wanted to share my story and let you know that it is more common than you think.

"It’s a one year job, I have a life outside of this (house, kids, family), I get my work done (not to his/her standards apparently) what more committal does s/he want?"
Probably for you to get the work done to his/her standard.

"Judge 100% exaggerates my mistakes."
It's your judge's world. Whatever your judge wants, goes, unless your judge is wrong on the law. If your judge is telling you you've made a mistake, you should take that as constructive criticism, not a "100% exaggerat[ion.]"

[Dcc617]

I suspect some of these people assuming, despite no information, that the OPs are definitely the problem can go right on and fuck themselves.

[Anonymous User]

Posting an anonymous reply because I am in a situation where I may get fired and I wanted to know what to do next. This is my second clerkship, first federal. I am missing deadlines, and not keeping up. My judge is away, but has said s/he wants to meet about this. The judge has not criticized my work product. At times the judge has commended me on it, but I have made small mistakes along the way. I am posting not to engage in the 'should I/should I not' be fired debate. I am more posting to determine what the next steps are and to see if anyone has rebounded after being fired.

[Bonzeye]

Posting an anonymous reply because I am in a situation where I may get fired and I wanted to know what to do next. This is my second clerkship, first federal. I am missing deadlines, and not keeping up. My judge is away, but has said s/he wants to meet about this. The judge has not criticized my work product. At times the judge has commended me on it, but I have made small mistakes along the way. I am posting not to engage in the 'should I/should I not' be fired debate. I am more posting to determine what the next steps are and to see if anyone has rebounded after being fired.

It seems fairly clear that you are not headed out yet. If they had planned to fire you when they told you they wanted to meet, they probably would not have mentioned such a specific issue ("let's talk" seems more likely). This suggests that you still have a chance, but they need you to awknowledge what is going on. Let them know why this is happening and what steps you are taking to fix this.

[Anonymous User]

It seems like we've moved on beyond this myth at this point in the thread, but wanted to echo that my judge is one of the nicest people I have ever met, not a harsh boss at all, and I think quite a skilled jurist. But he has fired a clerk before (and he's been on the bench for < 5 years), from what I gather it was justified.

To others reading this thread though, don't get too caught up with getting talked to about work product etc. from your judge. Mine did have a conversation with me after a couple months about some problems with work (which I admit were largely justified) and worried me, although in hindsight it wasn't anything like a precursor to being fired. I think a lot of clerks (especially those straight from law school) will end up having one of these conversations.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who had a very difficult clerkship, I would say it’s a year stick it out and live to have a career afterwards. It’s an important and close working relationship with a vast power disparity, being not told you’re not doing a good job is more painful than at it would be at a law firm x1000. But once it’s over you get the clerkship on your resume, and it’s possible you’ll learn something and even the Judge will acknowledge improvement (just depends on the issue). Regardless survival to the end is the clear best option.

People assuming the clerks are the problem are making a mistake, your judge is your boss and a clerkship is an honor and a privilege so you should be professional, serious and working your ass off, but some judges are still bad managers, unfair and even abusive. Impossible to know the situation in another chambers.

I feel for the OP, bust your ass do your best so that if the Judge fires you, you can know in your heart it was them not you.

[Anonymous User]

Posting an anonymous reply because I am in a situation where I may get fired and I wanted to know what to do next. This is my second clerkship, first federal. I am missing deadlines, and not keeping up. My judge is away, but has said s/he wants to meet about this. The judge has not criticized my work product. At times the judge has commended me on it, but I have made small mistakes along the way. I am posting not to engage in the 'should I/should I not' be fired debate. I am more posting to determine what the next steps are and to see if anyone has rebounded after being fired.

I am not the original poster, but I did post this quoted message. Quick update:

So I had the meeting with the judge and it was bad, but not end of the World bad. The Judge and I discussed the issues and we are working towards fixing things. Interestingly, the Judge wanted to talk about both deadlines and the quality of the work, which caught me off guard. Even though the meeting was a big kick in the face, it gives me hope that others in this group are correct. Judges generally want to work with you and don't want to fire their clerks.

[Anonymous User]

Disagree re. "judge sucks." I clerked for a judge (federal) who had fired several clerks in the past, but had tried to do so gently. All of the fired clerks landed OK. There were one or two other judges in the courthouse who had done the same thing. And that was in a reasonably small district.

I think it's more common than people think. And, frankly, that your judge is actually talking to you about it suggests that the situation is salvageable, either via the arrangements others have suggested or a "soft exit."

What do you mean by landed OK? Do you know what the exit opportunities were like for the clerks that were fired?

[Anonymous User]

What do you mean by landed OK? Do you know what the exit opportunities were like for the clerks that were fired?

I mean that, once it became clear that the year wasn't working out, the judge encouraged the clerks to find other jobs, and (as far as I know) actually helped out in the search. For the two whose names I remember, one is still working at a cool not-for-profit and the other clerk is at a respectable mid-sized firm.

I think the judge's attitude helped out quite a bit. It was not a "get out of here" kind of firing, but a "this isn't working, let's do this as painlessly as possible" process.

I do not know if this is typical. I imagine it isn't. But from what I know, the other fired clerks in the courthouse (and there were a few in the years right before I started) also landed fine at in-district firms.

[bblawyer]

OP here. To clarify, I do think my work is to blame for a lot of this. I had trouble adjusting to the pace of a D.Ct. clerkship. I made a few mistakes in cases and had to go back and fix things. I also think that my Judge's method of feedback wasn't helpful in figuring out what I was doing wrong. I am still not sure what exactly I should be doing differently in particular. I just know that what I have done is not enough and I cannot seem to figure out what else to change.

Thank you for the advice. I plan on directly speaking to the Judge in the next few days. I am worried that this direct conversation might outright lead to the Judge letting me go. I am just trying to figure out next steps and what I should say to firms and how to phrase it.

what do you mean by go back and fix things? like you had to vacate prior orders? or the judge caught mistakes before it was docketed? also what kind of things - like bad research? or just disagreeing about the conclusion?

[Anonymous User]

As someone who had a very difficult clerkship, I would say it’s a year stick it out and live to have a career afterwards. It’s an important and close working relationship with a vast power disparity, being not told you’re not doing a good job is more painful than at it would be at a law firm x1000. But once it’s over you get the clerkship on your resume, and it’s possible you’ll learn something and even the Judge will acknowledge improvement (just depends on the issue). Regardless survival to the end is the clear best option.

People assuming the clerks are the problem are making a mistake, your judge is your boss and a clerkship is an honor and a privilege so you should be professional, serious and working your ass off, but some judges are still bad managers, unfair and even abusive. Impossible to know the situation in another chambers.

I feel for the OP, bust your ass do your best so that if the Judge fires you, you can know in your heart it was them not you.

Does anyone have any experience with "sticking it out" when the clerkship is two years as opposed to one? Finding myself in this situation.

[howdy96]

As someone who had a very difficult clerkship, I would say it’s a year stick it out and live to have a career afterwards. It’s an important and close working relationship with a vast power disparity, being not told you’re not doing a good job is more painful than at it would be at a law firm x1000. But once it’s over you get the clerkship on your resume, and it’s possible you’ll learn something and even the Judge will acknowledge improvement (just depends on the issue). Regardless survival to the end is the clear best option.

People assuming the clerks are the problem are making a mistake, your judge is your boss and a clerkship is an honor and a privilege so you should be professional, serious and working your ass off, but some judges are still bad managers, unfair and even abusive. Impossible to know the situation in another chambers.

I feel for the OP, bust your ass do your best so that if the Judge fires you, you can know in your heart it was them not you.

Does anyone have any experience with "sticking it out" when the clerkship is two years as opposed to one? Finding myself in this situation.

Sorry I don't have advice, but could you share a bit about what you're struggling with? Future fellow two-year clerk here.

[Wild Card]

You could apply for employment and if you secure a job, resign.

Of course, you'd be totally screwed if prospective employers demand your judge as a reference.

[Anonymous User]

Not a clerk but sorry I do not understand this mentality by a judge. It's only a year's employment and it's not coming out of your pocket! If biglaw can wait a year or more before easing people out, you can let a clerk finish out the year. It's the deal you make when you have annually new employees, some will suck. It's just a huge red flag not to understand that.

[Anonymous User]

Deleted.