Judges who female or LGBT law clerks should avoid Forum

[jbagelboy]

Honestly--most federal judges, even very well respected ones, are not up to date on contemporary PC norms and make wildly inappropriate statements in chambers. We're talking about a 60+ year old demographic here. Are all of your parents--or grandparents--super on point with this stuff?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Honestly--most federal judges, even very well respected ones, are not up to date on contemporary PC norms and make wildly inappropriate statements in chambers. We're talking about a 60+ year old demographic here. Are all of your parents--or grandparents--super on point with this stuff?

Really don't think this is true at all.

[PeanutsNJam]

Pretty fucked up that the prestige machine is such a beastly monster that women/gays wouldn't even think twice about accepting a Kozinski offer, even if half the shit said ITT is true.

But I guess that's politics for you.

I mean, shit, I'm a man and I'd wear a skimpy outfit and let an old man grab my ass for a SCOTUS feeder clerkship. How fucked up is that?

[rpupkin]

Pretty fucked up that the prestige machine is such a beastly monster that women/gays wouldn't even think twice about accepting a Kozinski offer, even if half the shit said ITT is true.

But I guess that's politics for you.

That's why this style of thread is so pernicious. All the misogyny/homophobic comments came from anonymous posters who were "just telling you what they heard." And that leads others to think that, wow, even if half of it is true, I don't know how women/gays would work for this guy. Well what if none of it is true?

We're now berating women and gays who clerked for Kozinkski (I personally know three people who fall into that category). Apparently, all of Kozinski's female and gay clerks are self-hating prestige whores. Great work, TLS.

[lawlorbust]

Pretty fucked up that the prestige machine is such a beastly monster that women/gays wouldn't even think twice about accepting a Kozinski offer, even if half the shit said ITT is true.

But I guess that's politics for you.

I mean, shit, I'm a man and I'd wear a skimpy outfit and let an old man grab my ass for a SCOTUS feeder clerkship. How fucked up is that?

Quite. I guess it's a relief for all parties that your feeder chances are diddly-squat!

[PeanutsNJam]

Quite. I guess it's a relief for all parties that your feeder chances are diddly-squat!

What is the relevance of my feeder clerkship changes? You talk as if my post is somehow presumptuous.

[jbagelboy]

Honestly--most federal judges, even very well respected ones, are not up to date on contemporary PC norms and make wildly inappropriate statements in chambers. We're talking about a 60+ year old demographic here. Are all of your parents--or grandparents--super on point with this stuff?

Really don't think this is true at all.

If you disagree with me, then I probably didn't express myself very well

[A. Nony Mouse]

Honestly--most federal judges, even very well respected ones, are not up to date on contemporary PC norms and make wildly inappropriate statements in chambers. We're talking about a 60+ year old demographic here. Are all of your parents--or grandparents--super on point with this stuff?

Really don't think this is true at all.

If you disagree with me, then I probably didn't express myself very well

I'll agree there are some like this, just not most. Maybe I know disproportionately younger judges (although I don't think people in their 60s are out of touch unless they want to be), or maybe it's because they're mostly district court, not COA.

[Anonymous User]

How does one adult yell/scream at another adult? I can't picture a judge screaming/yelling at someone... That seems so childish... That's why I don't believe a lot of theae accusations

[UVA2B]

How does one adult yell/scream at another adult? I can't picture a judge screaming/yelling at someone... That seems so childish... That's why I don't believe a lot of theae accusations

I'm sorry, I have zero experience with judges, but if you've never dealt with a boss/superior who will yell at you, you're either extremely lucky or extremely naive. The hierarchical nature of a judge/clerk relationship lends perfectly to judges wielding excessive power, and by proxy unfair treatment, where yelling and belittling could be the norm. This isn't a unique phenomenon to clerkships.

Not that it matters, but brave anon post. You almost revealed that you've never experienced a boss who wields their position over you.

[rpupkin]

How does one adult yell/scream at another adult? I can't picture a judge screaming/yelling at someone... That seems so childish... That's why I don't believe a lot of theae accusations

Plenty of judges yell at their clerks and assistants. And plenty of Partners At Law firms yell at their associates and secretaries. It's not the norm, but (sadly) it's not uncommon.

[Anonymous User]

It's an interesting question. I agree that you'd think this would be a great use of anon, but on the other hand anyone who would have a chance at Kosinski is going to be in touch with professors who would tell them this anyway.

Never heard anything about him being anti LGBT but had heard the other claims

[HillandHollow]

That's why this style of thread is so pernicious. All the misogyny/homophobic comments came from anonymous posters who were "just telling you what they heard." And that leads others to think that, wow, even if half of it is true, I don't know how women/gays would work for this guy. Well what if none of it is true?

We're now berating women and gays who clerked for Kozinkski (I personally know three people who fall into that category). Apparently, all of Kozinski's female and gay clerks are self-hating prestige whores. Great work, TLS.

@rpupkin, at what degree of attenuation should we be comfortable with anonymously sharing stories about bad judge behavior? Only his clerks will have experienced it, but they--for obvious reasons--will be very hesitant to report it publicly, even if anonymously.

What if it were my friend who clerked for him, and who personally experienced sexual harassment from him? Am I too far removed to then share anonymously?

[grand inquisitor]

how can we evaluate your friend's credibility if she is not the one making the report? for instance, don't you think its possible that a judge's hectoring and bullying, even if equally distributed to all clerks, could be perceived as sexism by a female clerk or anti-gay bullying by a gay clerk?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think this sort of information is valuable, but that TLS isn't a great venue. Someone who actually gets an interview can/should speak to former clerks and I think in that context people can get across what the experience was like, even if they have to be coded about it.

[HillandHollow]

how can we evaluate your friend's credibility if she is not the one making the report? for instance, don't you think its possible that a judge's hectoring and bullying, even if equally distributed to all clerks, could be perceived as sexism by a female clerk or anti-gay bullying by a gay clerk?

Fwiw, the rumors that float around about how Kozinski treats his female clerks, IF TRUE, are pretty clearly sexist/sexual harassment/not a unique interpretation by a sensitive person.

Agreed that the gap in credibility assessment in the issue here, but what's the solution? Clerks need their judges' ongoing approval, for career advancement purposes. How else is this information going to get out? Or do we not agree that the information should get out at all?

[HillandHollow]

I think this sort of information is valuable, but that TLS isn't a great venue. Someone who actually gets an interview can/should speak to former clerks and I think in that context people can get across what the experience was like, even if they have to be coded about it.

Despite having already graduated law school, I am actually pretty new to the online world of lawyers (TLS, ATL, et al). I only joined here to kill time/help some of my current students where I could. So this is a real question: if TLS is not the venue for this type of information, where is that venue? I don't think I support a system in which young women lawyers have to hope that they receive some sort of coded message from a brave clerk to avoid being trapped in the sunken place.

[rpupkin]

Agreed that the gap in credibility assessment in the issue here, but what's the solution? Clerks need their judges' ongoing approval, for career advancement purposes. How else is this information going to get out? Or do we not agree that the information should get out at all?

Nony addressed this question a couple of posts back. If you're in a position to clerk for someone like Kozinski (and you would know if you were), you'd start talking to people with knowledge of what it's like to clerk for him.

The problem with TLS (or any internet message board that allows for anonymous posting) is that it permits people to share damaging stories without any kind of accountability or consequence. That's not a problem in all circumstances, but I think it is a problem when you start passing rumors about the wrongdoing of individuals. Take two hypothetical posts concerning law school admissions, in a thread started by a student who is thinking of attending the University of Chicago:

Post 1: "I don't think you should go to the University of Chicago. The quarter system sucks; I hated taking finals three times a year. Also, I found that the students were socially awkward and overly competitive."

Post 2: "I don't think you should go to the University of Chicago. I've heard that Brian Lieter makes advances on female students during office hours."

There's a difference between Post 1 and Post 2. Post 1 is an opinion that is critical of the environment of an institution; post 2 is the passing of a rumor that is potentially damaging to someone's personal reputation. I'm willing to live with the "accountability" problems of the anon feature for Post 1; I'm not willing to live with it for Post 2. (And, yes, I realize that anon posting isn't allowed in the Admissions forums. Don't fight the hypo.)

[lavarman84]

How does one adult yell/scream at another adult? I can't picture a judge screaming/yelling at someone... That seems so childish... That's why I don't believe a lot of theae accusations

I'm sorry, I have zero experience with judges, but if you've never dealt with a boss/superior who will yell at you, you're either extremely lucky or extremely naive. The hierarchical nature of a judge/clerk relationship lends perfectly to judges wielding excessive power, and by proxy unfair treatment, where yelling and belittling could be the norm. This isn't a unique phenomenon to clerkships.

Not that it matters, but brave anon post. You almost revealed that you've never experienced a boss who wields their position over you.

I haven't. I'd consider myself lucky. I hope I never have to deal with that.

[Barrred]

Nony addressed this question a couple of posts back. If you're in a position to clerk for someone like Kozinski (and you would know if you were), you'd start talking to people with knowledge of what it's like to clerk for him.

It isnt just former clerks of that judge who have credible, even first-hand knowledge of a particular judge's behavior/attitude toward his clerks. If you are considering clerking for a particular judge, one great way to determine the judge's reputation is to talk to his former externs, or former clerks of other judges in the same district (or same courthouse if its a COA judge). Former externs likely saw/heard how the judge spoke to clerks, and also are generally more willing to dish on the judge (their careers aren't determined by currying their judge's ongoing favor). The same is generally true for those who clerked in the same courthouse as that judge (while their observations will usually not be first-hand, they are more credible than an anon TLS post).

[rpupkin]

Nony addressed this question a couple of posts back. If you're in a position to clerk for someone like Kozinski (and you would know if you were), you'd start talking to people with knowledge of what it's like to clerk for him.

It isnt just former clerks of that judge who have credible, even first-hand knowledge of a particular judge's behavior/attitude toward his clerks. If you are considering clerking for a particular judge, one great way to determine the judge's reputation is to talk to his former externs, or former clerks of other judges in the same district (or same courthouse if its a COA judge). Former externs likely saw/heard how the judge spoke to clerks, and also are generally more willing to dish on the judge (their careers aren't determined by currying their judge's ongoing favor). The same is generally true for those who clerked in the same courthouse as that judge (while their observations will usually not be first-hand, they are more credible than an anon TLS post).

I agree with all of this. I reject the notion that one's only choices are (1) talk to former clerks in coded terms, or (2) consume anonymously-spread rumors on the Internet.

[gaddockteeg]

Agreed that the gap in credibility assessment in the issue here, but what's the solution? Clerks need their judges' ongoing approval, for career advancement purposes. How else is this information going to get out? Or do we not agree that the information should get out at all?

Nony addressed this question a couple of posts back. If you're in a position to clerk for someone like Kozinski (and you would know if you were), you'd start talking to people with knowledge of what it's like to clerk for him.

The problem with TLS (or any internet message board that allows for anonymous posting) is that it permits people to share damaging stories without any kind of accountability or consequence. That's not a problem in all circumstances, but I think it is a problem when you start passing rumors about the wrongdoing of individuals. Take two hypothetical posts concerning law school admissions, in a thread started by a student who is thinking of attending the University of Chicago:

Post 1: "I don't think you should go to the University of Chicago. The quarter system sucks; I hated taking finals three times a year. Also, I found that the students were socially awkward and overly competitive."

Post 2: "I don't think you should go to the University of Chicago. I've heard that Brian Lieter makes advances on female students during office hours."

There's a difference between Post 1 and Post 2. Post 1 is an opinion that is critical of the environment of an institution; post 2 is the passing of a rumor that is potentially damaging to someone's personal reputation. I'm willing to live with the "accountability" problems of the anon feature for Post 1; I'm not willing to live with it for Post 2. (And, yes, I realize that anon posting isn't allowed in the Admissions forums. Don't fight the hypo.)

I think readers can make their own decisions. As long as post isn't deceptive (e.g., Brian Lieter made an advance on me vs. I've heard Brian Lieter...), I think the reader can make their own decision on how much weight to put on something.

just my unsolicited opinion on this.

[LurkerTurnedMember]

How does one adult yell/scream at another adult? I can't picture a judge screaming/yelling at someone... That seems so childish... That's why I don't believe a lot of theae accusations

I'm sorry, I have zero experience with judges, but if you've never dealt with a boss/superior who will yell at you, you're either extremely lucky or extremely naive. The hierarchical nature of a judge/clerk relationship lends perfectly to judges wielding excessive power, and by proxy unfair treatment, where yelling and belittling could be the norm. This isn't a unique phenomenon to clerkships.

Not that it matters, but brave anon post. You almost revealed that you've never experienced a boss who wields their position over you.

I haven't had a boss yell at me before. And I don't think I'm lucky or naive. I know people can get upset and raise their voice, be blunt and even crude, but to actually yell or scream is another level. It is childish and I can't picture a judge or any reputable person doing it. Again, raising their voice, being blunt, and losing patience, ok. But screaming or yelling, no. That's too childish and embarassing.

Edit: I come from a working-class background where being blunt and not sugarcoating things were the norm for me. Even raising your voice in conversation if you're losing your patience. So when that happens, I don't think of it as a big deal. It's just people talking. Maybe what I consider talking you might consider yelling given different backgrounds?

[Npret]

How does one adult yell/scream at another adult? I can't picture a judge screaming/yelling at someone... That seems so childish... That's why I don't believe a lot of theae accusations

I'm sorry, I have zero experience with judges, but if you've never dealt with a boss/superior who will yell at you, you're either extremely lucky or extremely naive. The hierarchical nature of a judge/clerk relationship lends perfectly to judges wielding excessive power, and by proxy unfair treatment, where yelling and belittling could be the norm. This isn't a unique phenomenon to clerkships.

Not that it matters, but brave anon post. You almost revealed that you've never experienced a boss who wields their position over you.

I haven't had a boss yell at me before. And I don't think I'm lucky or naive. I know people can get upset and raise their voice, be blunt and even crude, but to actually yell or scream is another level. It is childish and I can't picture a judge or any reputable person doing it. Again, raising their voice, being blunt, and losing patience, ok. But screaming or yelling, no. That's too childish and embarassing.

Edit: I come from a working-class background where being blunt and not sugarcoating things were the norm for me. Even raising your voice in conversation if you're losing your patience. So when that happens, I don't think of it as a big deal. It's just people talking. Maybe what I consider talking you might consider yelling given different backgrounds?

No. Yellling is yelling. Don't be naive that there aren't some biglaw partners who yell though not that many.

[jbagelboy]

Agreed that the gap in credibility assessment in the issue here, but what's the solution? Clerks need their judges' ongoing approval, for career advancement purposes. How else is this information going to get out? Or do we not agree that the information should get out at all?

Nony addressed this question a couple of posts back. If you're in a position to clerk for someone like Kozinski (and you would know if you were), you'd start talking to people with knowledge of what it's like to clerk for him.

The problem with TLS (or any internet message board that allows for anonymous posting) is that it permits people to share damaging stories without any kind of accountability or consequence. That's not a problem in all circumstances, but I think it is a problem when you start passing rumors about the wrongdoing of individuals. Take two hypothetical posts concerning law school admissions, in a thread started by a student who is thinking of attending the University of Chicago:

Post 1: "I don't think you should go to the University of Chicago. The quarter system sucks; I hated taking finals three times a year. Also, I found that the students were socially awkward and overly competitive."

Post 2: "I don't think you should go to the University of Chicago. I've heard that Brian Lieter makes advances on female students during office hours."

There's a difference between Post 1 and Post 2. Post 1 is an opinion that is critical of the environment of an institution; post 2 is the passing of a rumor that is potentially damaging to someone's personal reputation. I'm willing to live with the "accountability" problems of the anon feature for Post 1; I'm not willing to live with it for Post 2. (And, yes, I realize that anon posting isn't allowed in the Admissions forums. Don't fight the hypo.)

good point