Zero for six? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm at UT, applying to dct clerkships in Texas. Top 5%, secondary journal, clinic work is basically what's on my resume. I had made the decision that if I don't clerk in Texas I probably don't want to clerk elsewhere, but that was before I had 6 interviews and got dinged on all 6 of them...

I'm beginning to question whether I'm unlucky or there's something that I am completely oblivious to that is fucking up my interviews. I've interviewed in major cities--Dallas, Houston, and Austin--as well as in smaller border towns. I always leave the interview feeling positive, and the last one I actually thought went incredibly well...and still dinged. I know for a fact that that clerkship was between me and one other candidate. If I'm competing with 1-3 other people for these spots I would think by the time I got to 6 interviews I should have landed one. Or is that a completely wrong? Is it possible this is just dumb bad luck?

I guess I need to make the decision now as to whether I want a clerkship badly enough to move out of state for it (I have personal reasons for staying in TX). I think the answer to that may be no, so my clerkship pursuit may be over given that there are only a few TX judges left who are still hiring for 2016.

[elipad]

I'm at UT, applying to dct clerkships in Texas. Top 5%, secondary journal, clinic work is basically what's on my resume. I had made the decision that if I don't clerk in Texas I probably don't want to clerk elsewhere, but that was before I had 6 interviews and got dinged on all 6 of them...

I'm beginning to question whether I'm unlucky or there's something that I am completely oblivious to that is fucking up my interviews. I've interviewed in major cities--Dallas, Houston, and Austin--as well as in smaller border towns. I always leave the interview feeling positive, and the last one I actually thought went incredibly well...and still dinged. I know for a fact that that clerkship was between me and one other candidate. If I'm competing with 1-3 other people for these spots I would think by the time I got to 6 interviews I should have landed one. Or is that a completely wrong? Is it possible this is just dumb bad luck?

I guess I need to make the decision now as to whether I want a clerkship badly enough to move out of state for it (I have personal reasons for staying in TX). I think the answer to that may be no, so my clerkship pursuit may be over given that there are only a few TX judges left who are still hiring for 2016.

If it makes you feel any better, I had about that many interviews before I landed my first offer. Judges have plenty of applicants to choose from, so it really may not be something you did. At this point, my suggestion is to follow up with a few chambers to ask for feedback or how you can improve. Even if it's just a clerk or JA, you might be surprised at their honesty/helpfulness. Having been on the other side for two rounds now, this has happened a couple of times. I was pretty forthright with them (probably more so than my judges would be). So, if you have a clerk or JA's email address, there's really not much to lose.

Additionally, why not keep your options open for 2017 if you're really restricted to TX? Or what about judges close by, like NM/OK/LA (depending where in TX you are).

[Emma.]

It's probably just bad luck. Clerkship hiring is so idiosyncratic and you never know what attracted the judge more to one highly qualified candidate over another. But there's a chance you are doing or saying something at interviews that the judges are finding off putting. Really hard to figure out what that might be without being a fly on the wall in your interviews, though.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses.

I will try emailing the JAs/clerks I interviewed with to ask them about what went wrong. I have I think maybe 5 or 6 apps out with judges who haven't yet hired but it's pretty slim pickings at this point in time for TX judges.

I'm going to apply to the few TX SCT justices who still have openings tomorrow. I could also apply to the Court of Criminal Appeals and I feel like I'd be almost a lock for that but I find the CCA's politics to be so repugnant that I might not be able to work for them.

[Anonymous User]

A handful of non-TX ADA's have told me that, to them, a SSC clerkship is as valuable a credential as a Fed. D. Ct. clerkship, if not more valuable. Border-TX is might be a different world, but most Fed. D. Cts. don't get far into the weeds of criminal law. As ADA's offices see it, clerking in state court--especially a state appellate court--gives you a chance to see a lot of 4th/5th/6th Amendment issues.

Law school really reinforces the "federal or bust" mindset when it comes to clerkships. But if you want to do criminal work, that's something to keep in mind.

[AFS]

UT 2015 grad here, now district court clerk. PM me OP.

[emciosn]

Just as another data point I had pretty good credentials as well and did not get an offer until my 7th interview (BK clerkships). Got a few post-clerkship biglaw offers though so it all turned out pretty well! Just stay the course and stay confident OP. As mentioned above clerkship hiring is extremely idiosyncratic. Each judge is looking for certain things and it is hard to tell if you are doing things right/wrong because something that bothers one judge might not bother another (e.g. some judges like really outgoing clerks, others like more reserved clerks). It's tough when it's just one person calling the shots and you don't really know what that one person likes. You'll find something OP, you just have to find that judge that you click with--it will be clear. My first six interviews I though "that went well." Dings. After my seventh I knew for certain I was getting the offer. We just clicked.

I know it's a lot of interviews and can be a little discouraging but don't let it get you down. Good luck OP!

[Anonymous User]

My experience was nearly identical to that of the poster above. I went 0 for 6 in a combination of COA/SSC interviews. I had no reason to doubt my interviewing skills, having already landed several jobs before applying. Couldn't figure it out. On the seventh interview, the judge and I just clicked, and she offered me on the spot. I couldn't understand what was missing from the previous interviews until I felt it in that one.

Like others have said, judges have so many candidates to choose from that they're going to pick someone they really mesh with. As long as you aren't legit weird (and you'd probably know by this point in your life), you'll land something eventually.

[Anonymous User]

I had four interviews over two months that i thought all went well -> all rejections/cold silence. Randomly my fifth interview, with an objectively more desirable judge, became a same day offer. Don't give up or become discouraged. It's a crapshoot at best.

[musicfor18]

You really shouldn't be discouraged by these rejections. There are tons of applicants for each position, and each judge has different hiring priorities (e.g., mix of experience, gender balance, etc). Just keep plugging along.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the advice guys. I am gonna sit down and apply to a bunch of judges in geographically close states. I appreciate the kind words. I was feeling pretty down after getting that 6th ding with a judge I really thought I had a GREAT interview with--not just a good one, but a really fantastic one. I see it's not that unusual for it to take this long to find one, and I don't think there's anything weird about me, so I'm ready to get back to that grind. Thanks again.

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

I was zero for my first six as well, but eventually landed a COA and D. Ct. clerkship in major cities in the NE (on my 8th and 10th try respectively). It's a very idiosyncratic process, and the fact that I reapplied with better grades for a year or two out undoubtedly helped, but I can attest that there is something such as clicking with a judge that was missing from my initial interviews. Don't despair!

[Anonymous User]

2015 UT grad who just started a dct clerkship in Texas. PM me. My chambers has already hired for 2016 but I'd love to help (mock interview maybe?) Etc.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I'm now zero for 8. Lol. I would like to PM some of the anons from UT who responded but I'm not sure how that works. Can anyone inform me? Thanks.

[flawedargument]

OP here. I'm now zero for 8. Lol. I would like to PM some of the anons from UT who responded but I'm not sure how that works. Can anyone inform me? Thanks.

You clearly don't have trouble getting interviews (eight!!), so you won't have trouble getting hired IF you put together a complete package for the judge making the decision. "But I did," you say. Did you really?

In my experience, you need people calling/emailing the judge telling him/her how wonderful a clerk you'd be. Think other judges (perhaps that you've interned for?) calling the judge 30 mins after your interview. Think professors calling before and after the interview. Think emailing the judge's former clerks who are alums of your school and asking them for advice (if they like you, they will tell the judge...if they don't, they probably just won't mention you at all, or if it was so bad that they do, you wouldn't have gotten the job anyway). Think your clerkship adviser going to bat for you.

With your stats, and the # of interviews you've had, you really need to get your shit together re: the above if you want a position. Getting people to support you is almost certainly easier than being in the top 5% of your class. Go talk to your clerkship adviser, say that you want people going to bat for you, and ask how to make it happen. Ask who the "connected" professors are. They'll help.

PS - None of the above should be taken as criticism. You're killing the game. You've been at 3rd base. Just need to get home.

[Anonymous User]

I'm one of the above anons. I don't want to out myself, so I would PM you but you're anon. If you become un-anon i'll PM you.

[Anonymous User]

To the OP: By my count, I went something like 0 for 11. Got an offer on my 13th interview (hadn't heard back from one judge when I got, and accepted, the offer).

There were a few interviews where some questions caught me completely off guard. But for the most part, it's almost completely fit. It was clear about two minutes into the interview to know that this interview was far different than the other ones I had. It was only one of two interviews I stepped out feeling great about.

So, keep plugging away. Assuming you have the ability to get along with people, you will almost certainly eventually get a position.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, I'm not sure that people calling is especially helpful once you've had the interview (as opposed to helping you stand out enough to get one). If the judge doesn't want to hire an applicant based on the interview I'm not sure other people's input is going to change their mind - the judge has already decided the applicant is qualified by deciding to interview them. I feel like calls are more helpful earlier in the process (but connections to the judge going to bat for you is certainly a good thing).

I agree that talking to former clerks before the interview would be a big help, though.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I'm not sure that people calling is especially helpful once you've had the interview (as opposed to helping you stand out enough to get one). If the judge doesn't want to hire an applicant based on the interview I'm not sure other people's input is going to change their mind - the judge has already decided the applicant is qualified by deciding to interview them. I feel like calls are more helpful earlier in the process (but connections to the judge going to bat for you is certainly a good thing).

I agree that talking to former clerks before the interview would be a big help, though.

In my experience, having an extremely well-known professor (or at least one with a personal relationship with the judge) call on the day of the interview can make a massive difference. Probably different weeks after the fact though

[jbagelboy]

How come you can only clerk in 2016?
I suggest applying for 2017 and 2018.

[xxxman]

Welcome to the new legal economy

Sadly pre bar pass you are pretty much just tossing pennies in a wishing well unless top 1% of your class. And even post bar exam, document review and legal temp agencies are most likely your best bet for a first job. Apply to everything you want, but treat it like college and apply to a few "safety" places too.

[jbagelboy]

Welcome to the new legal economy

Sadly pre bar pass you are pretty much just tossing pennies in a wishing well unless top 1% of your class. And even post bar exam, document review and legal temp agencies are most likely your best bet for a first job. Apply to everything you want, but treat it like college and apply to a few "safety" places too.

Not what this is about. And not accurate.

[xxxman]

Welcome to the new legal economy

Sadly pre bar pass you are pretty much just tossing pennies in a wishing well unless top 1% of your class. And even post bar exam, document review and legal temp agencies are most likely your best bet for a first job. Apply to everything you want, but treat it like college and apply to a few "safety" places too.

Not what this is about. And not accurate.

very accurate

[jbagelboy]

Welcome to the new legal economy

Sadly pre bar pass you are pretty much just tossing pennies in a wishing well unless top 1% of your class. And even post bar exam, document review and legal temp agencies are most likely your best bet for a first job. Apply to everything you want, but treat it like college and apply to a few "safety" places too.

Not what this is about. And not accurate.

very accurate

If you think a UT grad has to be top 1% in their class to get a FT/jd-required job as a law student, you're crazy. That's straight up disproven by any data source, with LST as a good starting place. On a bad year a third of the class will get a job as 2Ls at OCI. And besides, this thread is about federal clerkships, not overall employment. Even for clerkships, top 1% is insane.