how to communicate offer to other judge? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just wondering how to leverage one offer for another (have already interviewed with judge). I have a 11th cir offer. Want to leverage a 2nd. Don't want sound pretentious or disrespect my current offer. Not sure how to do this in terms of language.

[sandwhich]

I've been told to never, ever do this. It's part of the risk of applying to your 'second choice' judge. Of course, the advice I got may not have been universal.

[emciosn]

My gut says "don't do this." If you do, I would be very, very careful. The classic advice that you hear (especially from your OCS) is that you are essentially required to accept your first clerkship offer. Some judges think like this as well--I think there is a chance that the 2nd Circuit judge would be offended by your attempting to leverage your other offer in this manner. I think a judge would find distasteful the idea of poaching a clerk from another judge.

Maybe you could simply inform the 2nd Circuit judge that you have an offer and ask about his/her decision time frame but I probably wouldn't.

If the 11th Circuit judge will give you some time to decide maybe just wait. Judges usually decide pretty quickly. If you get two offers without any sort of pressure tactics, then perhaps you could just choose your second offer. But, know that some would consider not accepting your first offer even in this situation would be a faux pas (maybe even some judges). Some are less persnickety.

[Anonymous User]

OP here - I guess I posed this the wrong way. I did not receive an "exploding" offer, or even a formal offer. As I was leaving chambers at the conclusion of my interview, I was told they would be in touch in "soon" and that he "looked forward to me joining chambers in 2016." Any difference?

[jrf12886]

If you have interviewed with other judges, and they have asked you to keep them updated about other offers, then you can do that. Otherwise, it is absolutely inappropriate to use an offer from one judge to leverage interviews/offers from other judges. In fact, I think the other judges would be unpleasantly surprised if you even tried doing this, and there's a non-zero chance they could even tell the judge with whom you have an offer.

[Anonymous User]

I had a friend who indeed leveraged his other interviews to make a Godfather Offer to a semi-feeder COA judge (that he had interviewed with a few weeks before). I wouldn't categorically rule the tactic out, but it certainly is high-risk, high-reward.

[Shaggier1]

I think the best way to do this is pre-interview. "Dear Judge Y (or probably clerk for Judge Y), I have an interview with Judge X next week. You are my number one choice but I would of course feel obligated to accept any offer I received from Judge X. If there is any chance your chambers can reach a decision on my candidacy before the interview, I would enthusiastically accept immediately."

Polish that up, of course. But I think it is a better play. Since you interviewed but haven't yet received an offer you can modify it.

[minnbills]

If the second judge told you to reach out if you get another offer, then it's okay. Otherwise it's really not a good idea.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for anon, just don't want to out myself. I think a lot of the above is right. I had a slightly different situation, but wanted to throw it out there in case it was helpful. I was set to interview with two judges within the span of a week. I really enjoyed the first judge and his/her clerks. 24 hours after the interview, I sent a tactful email saying that I really enjoyed the interview, thanks, blah blah, etc. Then, at the end I said something to the effect of: I am scheduled to fly to x on Friday for another interview. I know you must have a lot of highly qualified applicants, but in the event that you have reached a decision by Friday, I would really appreciate you letting me know because good fit, blah blah. FWIW, the judge called the day before and extended an offer. Someone will inevitably chime in and explain why this is somehow reckless or disrespectful or something. But, anecdotally, it worked for me.

Also, not to rehash this stuff. But, the whole don't interview with a judge unless you will take the offer thing is bologna. Clerking is a job just like everything else. Sure, there are consequences to declining, especially if it is not tactful. But, if a one or two year job is clearly not a good fit, and if you are sufficiently qualified to get that job in the first place, you are dumb to take it just bc omg Art III judges are holy. They get to interview you (typically for fit), but you cannot do the same...?

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for anon, just don't want to out myself. I think a lot of the above is right. I had a slightly different situation, but wanted to throw it out there in case it was helpful. I was set to interview with two judges within the span of a week. I really enjoyed the first judge and his/her clerks. 24 hours after the interview, I sent a tactful email saying that I really enjoyed the interview, thanks, blah blah, etc. Then, at the end I said something to the effect of: I am scheduled to fly to x on Friday for another interview. I know you must have a lot of highly qualified applicants, but in the event that you have reached a decision by Friday, I would really appreciate you letting me know because good fit, blah blah. FWIW, the judge called the day before and extended an offer. Someone will inevitably chime in and explain why this is somehow reckless or disrespectful or something. But, anecdotally, it worked for me.

Also, not to rehash this stuff. But, the whole don't interview with a judge unless you will take the offer thing is bologna. Clerking is a job just like everything else. Sure, there are consequences to declining, especially if it is not tactful. But, if a one or two year job is clearly not a good fit, and if you are sufficiently qualified to get that job in the first place, you are dumb to take it just bc omg Art III judges are holy. They get to interview you (typically for fit), but you cannot do the same...?

I'm a current COA clerk (feeder-level) and basically agree with this. There are many judges, including mine, who would be 100% comfortable with this, or something like it. I agree that you'd want to do it tactfully, but the idea that all judges will react poorly to the simple fact of an applicant reaching out to tell them they have another offer, and asking for a decision, seems quite far afield from my experience. Just one more data point.

[lawstudentap23]

I'm in a similar situation: I had a judge a few weeks ago during an interview say, "I know you must be interviewing with other judges, so if you get an offer and would rather clerk with me, let me know and I will make my decision faster." I have an interview with one of his colleagues on the same court next week. The career person at my school said I shouldn't call up the first judge and notify him, because it is inappropriate since they are colleagues in the same court. But I can't help thinking that he asked me to do that for a reason and I am blowing an opportunity by not reaching out. Would it only be appropriate if it were an interview with a justice in a different court?

[A. Nony Mouse]

If the judge expressly told you that you could contact them if you got another offer, absolutely feel free to contact them, regardless of what your CSO says. (Of course, you have an interview, not an offer yet.)

The two judges I got offers from acknowledged that I was applying all over and genuinely gave me the opportunity to look into other options to make sure that clerking for them would work for me. So I don't quite buy the "you have to accept instantly" thing (I say "don't quite" because obviously it's a very small sample, and not feeder/fancy judges).

[Anonymous User]

OP here. If I hear nothing in response, just let it be, assume offer is off the table? Don't want to hound them unnecessarily.

[lawstudentap23]

If the judge expressly told you that you could contact them if you got another offer, absolutely feel free to contact them, regardless of what your CSO says. (Of course, you have an interview, not an offer yet.)

The two judges I got offers from acknowledged that I was applying all over and genuinely gave me the opportunity to look into other options to make sure that clerking for them would work for me. So I don't quite buy the "you have to accept instantly" thing (I say "don't quite" because obviously it's a very small sample, and not feeder/fancy judges).

Thanks! How would I go about doing this, though? Because CSO has stuck by the old adage of "accept the first offer you get." So if Judge 2 gives me an offer, I wouldn't be able to call up Judge 1 as I would have already accepted Judge 2. That is why I was thinking of trying to leverage the interview.

[jrf12886]

The rule has never been that you must accept the first offer you receive. The rule is never apply for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from. When you receive an offer, you can communicate that to other judges with whom you have interviewed or have scheduled an interview. This gives them an opportunity to extend an offer as well, at which point you can choose between them. But, what you cannot do (according to conventional wisdom) is hold an offer indefinitely while you shop around for a better clerkship or decide not to clerk at all. Once you have an offer, you are accepting it OR accepting one from another judge very soon thereafter.

[A. Nony Mouse]

To be fair, there is a school of thought - and many CSOs repeat this - that you need to accept any clerkship offer on the spot. I don't think that's necessary and agree entirely with the way you describe it, which is a much more sensible approach that fits my experience and what I've seen others experience, but people do get told that the rule is accept as soon as an offer is made.

(I think especially in the frenzied days of the height of the plan, there were judges who would offer on the spot and would expect a yes at that time. I don't know that this was ever the majority or even common, but I think it's what was alleged to have happened enough that the "don't say no to a judge" thing developed.)

Like I said, I think you actually describe reality more accurately.

[Anonymous User]

If I'm going to be in the area for an interview with a judge, is it okay to reach out to another (reach, but top choice) to ask about an interview?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes.

[lawstudentap23]

Ok thanks for the input. It's actually a moot issue now, as I just heard back from SSC judge 1 and he offered me a position, but it isn't until the 2017-2018 year and in the meantime he offered me a clerkship with the trial court for 2016-2017. This isn't quite what my clerkship plans were: I never planned on clerking in a state trial court, or anticipated that Id have to to get a SSC clerkship, but I'm torn. I still have another SSC interview, but there's never a guarantee with this stuff. I have the credentials for a SSC (top 1% of class, LR, state and federal court internships) so I'm wondering if I'm better off just holding off hoping for a 2016-2017 SSC offer?

[Anonymous User]

Yes.

Their OSCAR profile says "Do not contact chambers" so I'm not sure if this would qualify as an exception and I certainly don't want to piss them off and end up with my app in the trash. Thoughts?

[Shaggier1]

I'm in a similar situation: I had a judge a few weeks ago during an interview say, "I know you must be interviewing with other judges, so if you get an offer and would rather clerk with me, let me know and I will make my decision faster." I have an interview with one of his colleagues on the same court next week. The career person at my school said I shouldn't call up the first judge and notify him, because it is inappropriate since they are colleagues in the same court. But I can't help thinking that he asked me to do that for a reason and I am blowing an opportunity by not reaching out. Would it only be appropriate if it were an interview with a justice in a different court?

Fucking career services people. Obviously you should do what the judge explicitly instructed you to do.

[rpupkin]

The rule has never been that you must accept the first offer you receive. The rule is never apply for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from.

I would modify this rule slightly: never apply interview for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from. If you initially apply broadly, and if you then later realize (for whatever reason) that a particular district or judge is not right for you, I think it's acceptable to respectfully decline an invitation to interview. Your CSO will probably tell you that doing this will end your legal career, but I think it's fine.

[newlawgrad]

The rule has never been that you must accept the first offer you receive. The rule is never apply for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from.

I would modify this rule slightly: never apply interview for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from. If you initially apply broadly, and if you then later realize (for whatever reason) that a particular district or judge is not right for you, I think it's acceptable to respectfully decline an invitation to interview. Your CSO will probably tell you that doing this will end your legal career, but I think it's fine.

I get this, but, in almost all circumstances, you are the one traveling, spending money, etc. and I kind of find these special rules for the judiciary to be a bit ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

If I'm going to be in the area for an interview with a judge, is it okay to reach out to another (reach, but top choice) to ask about an interview?

Yes.

Their OSCAR profile says "Do not contact chambers" so I'm not sure if this would qualify as an exception and I certainly don't want to piss them off and end up with my app in the trash. Thoughts?

Bump.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The rule has never been that you must accept the first offer you receive. The rule is never apply for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from.

I would modify this rule slightly: never apply interview for a clerkship you aren't willing to accept an offer from. If you initially apply broadly, and if you then later realize (for whatever reason) that a particular district or judge is not right for you, I think it's acceptable to respectfully decline an invitation to interview. Your CSO will probably tell you that doing this will end your legal career, but I think it's fine.

I get this, but, in almost all circumstances, you are the one traveling, spending money, etc. and I kind of find these special rules for the judiciary to be a bit ridiculous.

I mean, you spending money to travel and so on is just the way the game works. As much money as the feds have, they can't really afford to fly every clerkship candidate to every interview for every judge hiring every year (and I do know judges who are aware of the issues with travel and who do video interviews). Firms at least have the prospect of having you work for them for years/become partner (even though I know most people don't), while most judges hire new clerks every single year.

I do think that if you interview with a judge and come away thinking "there is no WAY I can work with this person" then you can and should decline, even if the judge is going to get pissed - better a pissed-off judge than spending a year in misery (and likely not developing a very good relationship with the judge). That's different from deciding to apply to Idaho, going there to interview, and realizing you don't actually want to live in Idaho for a year, because you do control where you apply.