Forget about clerking? - Patent Lit & Median @ Penn Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am currently a 2L at Penn, and pretty solidly set into a career in Patent Lit. Spent my 1L, and will spend 2L summer at firms doing this.

My 1L grades were a little bit below median. Even with good grades, medianish is probably the best I figure I can hope for. I do have a desirable tech background.

I'm still not sure if it's something I definitely want to do anyways, but should I just forget about clerking because of my grades? I figure the only places I would want to clerk would be something like CAFC, S/C/ND Cal, ND Ill, Del, EDTX, or maybe one of the other patent heavy districts I'm leaving out.

I understand these are also highly desirable districts (as is the CAFC) which typically require higher grades than some other districts as it is. FWIW, I do have good grades in IP classes.

Is there any chance of clerking at one of these places within 0-2 yrs out of law school? (doubt that I would want to leave my career after 2 yrs from Law school.) Or should I just write it off?

[yuzu]

Yes, there is certainly a chance. People with medianish grades and a patent background do sometimes get interviews & clerkships in a number of these districts. CAFC judges tend to prefer people with experience but it's certainly not out of the question.

Just send out a lot of applications, including paper applications for judges not on OSCAR, and hope for the best.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, there is certainly a chance. People with medianish grades and a patent background do sometimes get interviews & clerkships in a number of these districts. CAFC judges tend to prefer people with experience but it's certainly not out of the question.

Just send out a lot of applications, including paper applications for judges not on OSCAR, and hope for the best.

Haha, had forgotten I wrote actually wrote this, but thanks for this response!

[Nelson]

You have no shot at CAFC from Penn with your grades.

[Anonymous User]

You have no shot at CAFC from Penn with your grades.

Even if they come up a bit during 2L and 3L? And appreciate the honesty, really.

Not that I think I'm gonna get straight As, but I'm guessing you're saying that it'd take something completely out of reach? Which is fine, just hard to find info about this... Do you know how this compares to the patent districts?

You an IP bro here? (or were?)

eta: while I thought our CP&P was great for OCI and dealing with firms around that, I found Christine Fritton's advice pretty unhelpful w/r/t this. Aside from being pressured to apply to places I have no interest in clerking, I still walked out without any sense of my chances where I would actually get some professional benefit (as opposed to possibly increasing Penn's clerkship #s).

[Nelson]

You have no shot at CAFC from Penn with your grades.

Even if they come up a bit during 2L and 3L? And appreciate the honesty, really.

Not that I think I'm gonna get straight As, but I'm guessing you're saying that it'd take something completely out of reach? Which is fine, just hard to find info about this... Do you know how this compares to the patent districts?

You an IP bro here? (or were?)

eta: while I thought our CP&P was great for OCI and dealing with firms around that, I found Christine Fritton's advice pretty unhelpful w/r/t this. Aside from being pressured to apply to places I have no interest in clerking, I still walked out without any sense of my chances where I would actually get some professional benefit (as opposed to possibly increasing Penn's clerkship #s).

You're targeting probably the third most competitive COA. There are only like 60ish total spots each year; they can afford to get top grades and a tech background (if they even want one, half of the judges don't care). The recent vintage CAFC clerks from Penn were top of the class (like top handful of people) and had patent credentials. You just aren't COA competitive with your grades (barring some truly extraordinary connection). Your best hope is to get 1-3 years of experience and apply broadly at the district level. If they're just telling you to apply broadly, it's a nice way of saying you aren't competitive and they aren't going to blow any of their leads on you. If they're pressuring you towards EDPa judges, it's because that's far and away your best shot.

[Anonymous User]

You're targeting probably the third most competitive COA. There are only like 60ish total spots each year; they can afford to get top grades and a tech background (if they even want one, half of the judges don't care). The recent vintage CAFC clerks from Penn were top of the class (like top handful of people) and had patent credentials. You just aren't COA competitive with your grades (barring some truly extraordinary connection). Your best hope is to get 1-3 years of experience and apply broadly at the district level. If they're just telling you to apply broadly, it's a nice way of saying you aren't competitive and they aren't going to blow any of their leads on you. If they're pressuring you towards EDPa judges, it's because that's far and away your best shot.

Leads? lol, no mention of anything like that... Yea, sounds like you're right. I mean she told me to apply to various places she thought were patent places. She told me I might still have a shot in the big name districts b/c of the IP credentials and told me get everything put together ASAP.

However, she told me to apply to crap like D. Idaho, which is on the Patent Pilot program to try to get patent cases...but AFAIK has actually received zero cases. Didn't really seem so much as she was trying to mislead me, but just that like everyone else around here really had no idea about the patent world.

TBH as I think I mentioned I'm not even 100% sure I would want to clerk, even if it was a desirable district. I definitely don't think it would be worth the lost salary to clerk for anywhere that doesn't handle a significant amount of patent cases.

Kinda leads me to what I was posting here for, is there any real shot at getting somewhere appropriate? (D Del., WD Wis., ED Tex, N/C/SD Cal, ND Ill, D Mass, DNJ, SDNY, D Minn, EDVA... everyone I can think of offhand, mayybe SD Fl., would have to look again there). Even certain judges in these districts would not be worthwhile, if they assign patent cases like does ED Tex.

If it's a fruitless endeavor, it would save a hell of a lot of bullshit during 2L trying to put together a strong application, somehow finding a writing sample and recommenders.

Sounds like you might have some data or info on the types of grades that judges expect? Mind sharing source? Would be interested to see how the above districts compare in terms of selectivity. Are they on par with CAFC? I'm somewhat surprised CAFC is so popular but I guess it's people that just want to work in DC or something..

And thanks for the honest input, really appreciate it

[Anonymous User]

CAFC (most but not all positions) and the patent-heavy courts (especially ED Tex) are connection dependent. They also like experience. If you did really well in Patents and have a good relationship with your prof, you can certainly go for DCt and CAFC clerkships (though maybe DCt first -- a lot of CAFC judges like that). Even if you would be going in with experience though, you may need to apply early, because the hiring is so far in advance now, but keep applying after that & keep an eye on positions that pop up (connections are vital here). Having your post-LS offer and job be at a firm that has clerks from these districts/CAFC will help too because that just gives you more connections.

Nelson's advice isn't really all that accurate re CAFC, plenty of people with similar/worst credential combinations (but those with median grades rocked their patent law class, developed a strong relationship with their patent law prof, brought their grades up 2L/3L, and have experience). I guess he's right about someone's advice to you applying broadly is a nice way of blowing you off, assuming they are the ones with rock-solid connections that could get you hired -- and this includes the patent clerkship gatekeeper at a given law school (i.e. you know who they are if you're at a T14 or someplace like GW, or if an ex-clerk is a rising star patent prof at a sub-T14 school). If they want to go to bat for you, you'd know (though they might still tell you that you'd be more competitive after DCt / firm experience).

Oh another thing -- don't worry about being in a patent-heavy district for your DCt experience. That's overrated (even if you want to go to CAFC).