Federal Career Clerk vs Private Practice Forum

[Anonymous User]

I may be in the position soon of deciding between a career clerk position for a federal district judge or re-entering private practice.

I've been trying to sift through the forums for opinions on this, but I think because so few career clerk positions ever open up in the federal system this particular type of topic receives minimal discussion.

On the one hand, I love clerking ... a lot. And the general consensus is that a career clerk is EZ-mode for life. My student loan debt is so vast that I also cannot ignore the loan forgiveness program and the massive present value (invisible) that type of forgiveness would add to my salary.

On the other hand, federal salary has a ceiling, but for the brief time I was in private practice, I hated it. A lot of this has to do with the area of law I was in, and I have no fears that I will have to return to that area of law, but I don't have a combative personality and I wonder how well I would adapt to life as a litigator. I also worry about work-life balance in heavy litigation as compared to work-life balance as a clerk.

What I am hoping people here can speculate on, or express knowledge on, is how a firm would treat me if I stayed in as a career clerk for the duration, 10 years total clerking, to get loan forgiveness--and then left for private practice. Is there a stigma for clerking for that long? I wouldn't expect vast amounts of salary credit, but I do wonder if firms want to hire people as "new" associates who spent that much time in government. Am I completely wrong and firms like to hire career clerks as a kind of rare find? That seems a little counterintuitive to me. The district I am in is solid, but not really considered elite. Party of what troubles me is when I watch successful litigators and talk to them, they always have a kind of wolfish personality that I know I will never match. It also just seems weird to imagine how I would show up at a firm, a lot older than the normal new attorneys, and having never conducted a deposition, for example.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't have direct personal experience, but my sense is that biglaw firms are not looking to hire people who are career clerks. The nature of the job is so different from what you do in a firm that it becomes extremely hard to compare a 10+ year career clerk with an entry-level associate.

I do know of a few career clerks who have gone into firms, but generally very small local firms that specialize in something related to the kind of work that shows up in a district court judge's chambers. I don't know that they went in as associates or partners - more like they're associating with another practitioner or two.

Career clerking is a great gig in terms of work-life balance, and for federal clerks, the salary is very decent. If you like your judge and like research/writing, it can be a great position. The downside is that it can be a little difficult to work out where to go next. I think a lot of it depends on your own experience, the skills you personally develop, and the connections you make in your time clerking, rather than following any of the kinds of paths available coming out of school.

[Shaggier1]

but I don't have a combative personality

I can't speak to how a firm might receive you after 10 years, but I can say that the career clerks I know cite the above as the central reason they opted for the career clerk path (in addition to enjoying the substantive and diverse work). They are among the happiest, most balanced people I know.

[84651846190]

I would give anything for a career clerk job.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a career clerk. I don't think a law firm would know what to do with me, but that's just fine with me, since I really do think of clerking as my career. Yeah, the salary isn't what it would be at a firm, but it's the best job in the world, and GS-14 is plenty of money for me. I've never once regretted taking the position as a career clerk, and I've been doing it for eight years now.

[nickelanddime]

I would give anything for a career clerk job.

I know lots of associates that feel the same way. But, that's also after 5-6 years of saving up a nest egg.

[nickelanddime]

I'm a career clerk. I don't think a law firm would know what to do with me, but that's just fine with me, since I really do think of clerking as my career. Yeah, the salary isn't what it would be at a firm, but it's the best job in the world, and GS-14 is plenty of money for me. I've never once regretted taking the position as a career clerk, and I've been doing it for eight years now.

Did you know the judge beforehand? I've found that both of the judges that I've clerked for are far more difficult than I was led to believe (although still not bad, as judges go). I would think that there's a huge risk of getting stuck in a bad situation.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm a career clerk. I don't think a law firm would know what to do with me, but that's just fine with me, since I really do think of clerking as my career. Yeah, the salary isn't what it would be at a firm, but it's the best job in the world, and GS-14 is plenty of money for me. I've never once regretted taking the position as a career clerk, and I've been doing it for eight years now.

Did you know the judge beforehand? I've found that both of the judges that I've clerked for are far more difficult than I was led to believe (although still not bad, as judges go). I would think that there's a huge risk of getting stuck in a bad situation.

Judges are more careful about hiring career clerks than term clerks, I think, though - usually career clerks have some experience clerking, and (at least the ones I've known) have had enough experience/connections in the same jurisdiction to be able to better evaluate what they're getting into. It's usually less blind than usual term-clerk hiring.

[seizmaar]

with a lot of our beloved federal judges being a bit advanced in age, is it pretty much a given that when your judge kicks it you have to go on the market?

[A. Nony Mouse]

That, or find another judge (not always easy).

[anonymous2012]

I think ideally as a career clerk you'd transition to a USAO (probably civil), another career clerk position, or some other bigfed position. Unless you leave relatively young, I think that you will be in a career associate sort of role in a mid law firm.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Sounds like you really like clerking, you really hated private practice, you have the rare legal job that will give you a great work-life balance, it makes financial sense with PSLF.... What am I missing here? For all practical purposes your salary will be capped in private practice, too. You could make more in biglaw for five years or whatever but after that, especially as a litigator, a clerk salary is about what you could expect to make anyway.

I haven't been a career clerk but I'll trade you my biglaw job for it. But for what it's worth, I think you're right that you won't be a good candidate for a firm of any size after ten years of clerking.

[Anonymous User]

This is the OP, and I thank all of you for the thoughtful replies. Dixiecup raises a good point, and it is something I've been having a hard time quantifying. While it is certainly true that biglaw would pay more, I don't know anyone who has stayed in biglaw for an extended period of time. Of the 10 or so biglaw attorneys I have known, they all left at some point: starting their own boutique, going in-house, etc. And while a Biglaw burnout who goes in-house would still make more than a career clerk, I think, it isn't very much more. Which means what I would really be weighing is the present value of loan forgiveness and steady career clerk salary versus ... what ... 3-5 years of Biglaw followed by a more normal salary?

By comparison I'm not sure mid-law or small-law could pay me enough compared to the steady federal salary. The problem is always though what to do after loan forgiveness. I had thought about trying to move to a career slot at the appellate level or teaching, but it does seem awkward to go into private practice. USAO though, I'll give that some thought. Is the trial work for civil USAOs minimal? Seems like they would be relegated to motions practice like everybody else, but I've only really encountered criminal USAOs.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for all of the thoughtful replies. It is a hard decision, but I appreciate all of the insight shared in this thread.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Sounds like you really like clerking, you really hated private practice, you have the rare legal job that will give you a great work-life balance, it makes financial sense with PSLF.... What am I missing here? For all practical purposes your salary will be capped in private practice, too. You could make more in biglaw for five years or whatever but after that, especially as a litigator, a clerk salary is about what you could expect to make anyway.

I haven't been a career clerk but I'll trade you my biglaw job for it. But for what it's worth, I think you're right that you won't be a good candidate for a firm of any size after ten years of clerking.

How much are you making as a clerk? I imagine it might be similar to a starting mid law associate salary, but that you'd make considerably more as a partner in a small/midsize firm. Also big law associate (NYC/DC/SF whatever)-> big law associate (secondary market) -> partner in big law secondary market is not an impossible outcome.

[Anonymous User]

Career salary is about 100k to start and then slowly moves up to around 120k over ten years, depending on your location.

[Holly Golightly]

with a lot of our beloved federal judges being a bit advanced in age, is it pretty much a given that when your judge kicks it you have to go on the market?

Anecdotally, I know a career clerk who was immediately hired by another judge in the same district when the first judge retired.

[A. Nony Mouse]

with a lot of our beloved federal judges being a bit advanced in age, is it pretty much a given that when your judge kicks it you have to go on the market?

Anecdotally, I know a career clerk who was immediately hired by another judge in the same district when the first judge retired.

Yeah, I've seen this too - I'm sure it depends on circumstance, but I have seen career clerks go from one judge to another.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Career salary is about 100k to start and then slowly moves up to around 120k over ten years, depending on your location.

That's really good. Then I agree with dixiecup that this is around what you are likely to make as a litigator, although obviously depending on your book of business etc its not impossible to make more (big law partner in secondary market or whatever). The only private practice job that I imagine might have similar quality of life is in house, and there you can be easily fired and will likely be working more hours.

I think the main consideration is the type of work you like to do. As a clerk you are basically in the role of a judge. I actually prefer to be in the role of an attorney, but I think 100K with the career security of a clerk sounds great. If you know you don't like working in litigation, then I think this sounds like a very solid option.

As an aside, I know someone (mother of a friend) who was a career clerk for 10-15 years, and is now a state court judge in the same courthouse. So it does happen that people transition from career clerk to judge although I assume it is rare.

[BearState]

All of the career clerks I know are super happy people. I'd be worried about your tenure tied to another (generally older) person's career; and new rules prevent judges from having more than 1 career clerk, right?

Are there anecdotal examples of career clerks becoming magistrate judges?

[A. Nony Mouse]

For anecdata, I do know of a career clerk who became a magistrate judge, though I forget how long she clerked before becoming a judge. (And yes, no more than 1 full-time career clerk per chambers now, at least at the district court level; not sure about COA. I knew some judges who had 2 part-time career clerks.)

[BVest]

For anecdata, I do know of a career clerk who became a magistrate judge, though I forget how long she clerked before becoming a judge. (And yes, no more than 1 full-time career clerk per chambers now, at least at the district court level; not sure about COA. I knew some judges who had 2 part-time career clerks.)

I interviewed with a judge with two full-time career clerks and one term clerk. That judge, however, did not have a JA. Instead, one of the career clerks did about 2/3 to 3/4 clerk work and then picked up the administrative issues as well. The judge explained it to me that they got three FTEs and the judge had discretion as to how to divide that up among clerks/JAs. Work in their chambers was divided it thusly:

Term Clerk -- Cases ending in odd number except 5
Career Clerk 1 -- Cases ending in even number except 0
Career Clerk 2 -- Cases ending in 0 and 5 plus picking up additional cases from the other two clerks as needed, plus admin stuff.

Another judge in the same division had the same division of labor with no JA but employed two term clerks and one career clerk.

ETA: though if that's a really new rule, I could see that situation being grandfathered.

[Anonymous User]

It used to be district judges could have two career clerks, but the rules were changed so that they could only have one. The old career clerks were grandfathered in. With respect to those grandfathered clerks, they can move through the system and change judges--if they switch to a judge who has 1 career clerk, they are allowed to break the rules and be a second career clerk for that judge.

The judges also get flexibility in what they hire. District judges can hire 1 JA and 2 clerks or 3 clerks and no JA. I think circuit court judges get 4 total hires compared to the district court judge's 3.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a career clerk. I don't think a law firm would know what to do with me, but that's just fine with me, since I really do think of clerking as my career. Yeah, the salary isn't what it would be at a firm, but it's the best job in the world, and GS-14 is plenty of money for me. I've never once regretted taking the position as a career clerk, and I've been doing it for eight years now.

Did you know the judge beforehand? I've found that both of the judges that I've clerked for are far more difficult than I was led to believe (although still not bad, as judges go). I would think that there's a huge risk of getting stuck in a bad situation.

Yeah, I was a term clerk for him first, so I knew what I was getting into when I accepted his offer of a permanent clerkship. I think that's fairly typical for a lot of career clerks, at least in my circuit.