Flyover D.C. Clerkship vs. V15 Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've been offered a clerkship w/ a D.C. judge in a "flyover" district (but think FL, TX, GA, not like Iowa or North Dakota). This would be for the 2014 term (super late I know). I've already accepted an offer at a V15 and am curious what you guys think about doing this clerkship vs. going to the firm.

I want to do the clerkship mainly for personal reasons (I think it will be interesting, and I'm not sure I will have the chance to do this sort of thing again). But I do want to go back to this firm, so I don't want to do anything that could jeopardize my future w/ the firm. What say you all?

[Anonymous User]

I've been offered a clerkship w/ a D.C. judge in a "flyover" district (but think FL, TX, GA, not like Iowa or North Dakota). This would be for the 2014 term (super late I know). I've already accepted an offer at a V15 and am curious what you guys think about doing this clerkship vs. going to the firm.

I want to do the clerkship mainly for personal reasons (I think it will be interesting, and I'm not sure I will have the chance to do this sort of thing again). But I do want to go back to this firm, so I don't want to do anything that could jeopardize my future w/ the firm. What say you all?

A V15 almost certainly will be supportive of you doing a clerkship. The only exception is if you're in a satellite office that has a very low number of summer associates (and thus might need you for the work). Even then, they're probably still supportive and can take the hit -- it's just the most common scenario where a firm that size wouldn't be all-in on supporting you.

[exitoptions]

I've been offered a clerkship w/ a D.C. judge in a "flyover" district (but think FL, TX, GA, not like Iowa or North Dakota). This would be for the 2014 term (super late I know). I've already accepted an offer at a V15 and am curious what you guys think about doing this clerkship vs. going to the firm.

I want to do the clerkship mainly for personal reasons (I think it will be interesting, and I'm not sure I will have the chance to do this sort of thing again). But I do want to go back to this firm, so I don't want to do anything that could jeopardize my future w/ the firm. What say you all?

I would ask the firm if they'll hold the offer open. Most seem willing. I definitely recommend doing the clerkship. You may not get another opportunity to clerk, and every year you wait, you're giving up a larger salary (in big law). Also, realistically, you are unlikely to last very long in big law, so you might as well get the credential of clerking while you can. Some biglaw exit options require or strongly prefer former clerks (USAO and other gov't positions and some lit boutiques).

My only hesitation would be if the firm won't hold the offer open and there's no major market in the district or that the district feeds into (depends how flyover it is, I guess). Try to ask clerks in that district where people end up. If you're unwilling to work there, that might make it too risky to clerk.

[Nomo]

I wouldn't do the flyover clerkship if you're not sure the offer will be held open. Clerking in flyover country is not an automatic entry into biglaw. There have been threads on this. Do not assume that you'll definitely be able to find a similar job if you clerk.

[Anonymous User]

If you're worried about not having the chance to do it again, don't be. There are lots of judges who exclusively hire clerks with at least a few years' experience. I know of a COA judge who has a pretty firm 8+ years' experience for candidates.

My judge wants around 3, and only wants people with litigation experience.

[exitoptions]

If you're worried about not having the chance to do it again, don't be. There are lots of judges who exclusively hire clerks with at least a few years' experience. I know of a COA judge who has a pretty firm 8+ years' experience for candidates.

My judge wants around 3, and only wants people with litigation experience.

But who wants to clerk after 8 years of experience. That sounds dreadful.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Just ask your firm. It's extremely likely they'll hold it open for you. If they won't, well, if you have the qualifications to get a V15 offer you'll probably be fine to get something out of the clerkship (the people who struggle seem to be people who didn't do a 2L SA/get an offer, not people who had a V15 offer before clerking; clerking doesn't automatically get you biglaw if you didn't have biglaw qualifications to begin with, but if you did, you should be fine). But you could hold off and apply again later, too - clerking can be a good way to transition from one firm to another, or biglaw to some other kind of law.

But this is only an issue if your firm won't hold a space for you. Which I bet they will.

[09042014]

I wouldn't do the flyover clerkship if you're not sure the offer will be held open. Clerking in flyover country is not an automatic entry into biglaw. There have been threads on this. Do not assume that you'll definitely be able to find a similar job if you clerk.

And while almost every firm holds offers for clerks, they may not with such little notice. I'd inquire and ask if the clerkship is something the firm wants you to do or not. A lot of people don't value a random District Court clerkship unless it's a district you practice in.

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be unlikely that a V15 firm would not hold open your offer. Unless you are in an extremely small satellite office, V15 firms can easily absorb the loss of one incoming associate, even on very short notice. And even in an extremely small satellite office, they would probably just deal with it.

It's not true that "a lot of people don't value a random District Court clerkship unless it's a district you practice in." I see that idea a lot on TLS and have always found it odd. Of course, it's a bonus to have clerked in the district in which you practice, but it doesn't render every other clerkship valueless. I clerked on SDNY, but I can guarantee that V15 firms highly value any USDC clerkship. And honestly I think the benefits of familiarity with the local bench/docket are especially overstated for large districts like SDNY, DDC, CDCA, precisely because the bench is so large.

Federal courts do basically the same sort of work everywhere, using the same rules of procedure, and applying the same federal statutes. There are some variances in the docket from district to district, but for the most part the skills you gain from a USDC clerkship will be transferable. If you clerked on the district court in Iowa, you could easily practice in NYC or DC.

Long story short, you should clerk! It's a great, great job. I worked at a large firm in DC and now am clerking on the COA. All of the partners at the firm I left were very encouraging of my decision to clerk again, and told me that my two clerkships would be helpful if I decided to return to the firm and pursue partnership. I also found that I was sometimes chosen to work on cases because I had been a district court clerk. The partners like federal clerks, and more importantly, the clients (who often have a hand in how firms staff their cases) like federal clerks. That's been my experience anyway.

[Anonymous User]

OP Here

E-mailed the firm. They said this sounds like a great opportunity and I should go for it and that they will hold my spot. So...easy decision I guess

BTW this is a major market firm w/ incoming associate class of ~100

[09042014]

OP Here

E-mailed the firm. They said this sounds like a great opportunity and I should go for it and that they will hold my spot. So...easy decision I guess

BTW this is a major market firm w/ incoming associate class of ~100

Great! Enjoy it. Itll be the best legal job you'll ever had.

[Anonymous User]

OP Here

E-mailed the firm. They said this sounds like a great opportunity and I should go for it and that they will hold my spot. So...easy decision I guess

BTW this is a major market firm w/ incoming associate class of ~100

Great! Enjoy it. Itll be the best legal job you'll ever had.

Yeahhh sounds way more humane and interesting than working 70 hour weeks next year

[Citizen Genet]

OP Here

E-mailed the firm. They said this sounds like a great opportunity and I should go for it and that they will hold my spot. So...easy decision I guess

BTW this is a major market firm w/ incoming associate class of ~100

Yeah this is a win for both of you. They get a much cheaper year of training out of you without noticing you're gone and you get an amazing job for a year.

[Anonymous User]

If you're worried about not having the chance to do it again, don't be. There are lots of judges who exclusively hire clerks with at least a few years' experience. I know of a COA judge who has a pretty firm 8+ years' experience for candidates.

My judge wants around 3, and only wants people with litigation experience.

But who wants to clerk after 8 years of experience. That sounds dreadful.

People who don't make partner and get pushed out of their firm with little notice (like my current co-clerk).

People (like me) who want to career clerk.

People who get tired of private practice and want a stable, low-stress, rewarding and challenging position that pays decently.

[legalese_retard]

It's not true that "a lot of people don't value a random District Court clerkship unless it's a district you practice in." I see that idea a lot on TLS and have always found it odd. Of course, it's a bonus to have clerked in the district in which you practice, but it doesn't render every other clerkship valueless. I clerked on SDNY, but I can guarantee that V15 firms highly value any USDC clerkship. And honestly I think the benefits of familiarity with the local bench/docket are especially overstated for large districts like SDNY, DDC, CDCA, precisely because the bench is so large.

Federal courts do basically the same sort of work everywhere, using the same rules of procedure, and applying the same federal statutes. There are some variances in the docket from district to district, but for the most part the skills you gain from a USDC clerkship will be transferable. If you clerked on the district court in Iowa, you could easily practice in NYC or DC.

While I agree that the clerkship experience is valuable, not all clerkships are considered equal by the big firms. I say this speaking from personal experience. I'm applying in the same district as my clerkship and not getting any bites, so I highly doubt I would get any consideration by any of the firms in cities like NYC, DC, LA, or Chicago. Just a word of caution for anyone that assumes that a job will be guaranteed just because of a clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the anon quoted above. I agree with this. Clerkships have greater or lesser perceived worth. My point was that it's not true that a clerkship has NO perceived worth if it's not in the district in which you will practice.

I've definitely heard from at least one recruiter that the market for litigation hiring is tough right now. And a number of people I know at firms say that the litigation practice is very slow right now. So totally understood that a clerkship cannot guarantee employment at a big law firm.

Also, just out of curiosity, would you consider working in NYC, DC, LA, or Chicago (etc)? Because if you would, you might have more success in the larger cities simply because there are more jobs available. Granted, I don't know what district you are clerking in, but it sounds like it has a relatively small job market.

[legalese_retard]

I'm the anon quoted above. I agree with this. Clerkships have greater or lesser perceived worth. My point was that it's not true that a clerkship has NO perceived worth if it's not in the district in which you will practice.

I've definitely heard from at least one recruiter that the market for litigation hiring is tough right now. And a number of people I know at firms say that the litigation practice is very slow right now. So totally understood that a clerkship cannot guarantee employment at a big law firm.

Also, just out of curiosity, would you consider working in NYC, DC, LA, or Chicago (etc)? Because if you would, you might have more success in the larger cities simply because there are more jobs available. Granted, I don't know what district you are clerking in, but it sounds like it has a relatively small job market.

I'm in Texas and have been applying to firms in Houston, Dallas, Ft. Worth, San Antonio and Austin.

[rayiner]

TX, FL, GA, etc, are not "flyover" country, both as a generally factual matter (few airline routes fly over any of them), and because they have substantial legal markets of their own in which clerks can seek jobs.

[Anonymous User]

TX, FL, GA, etc, are not "flyover" country, both as a generally factual matter (few airline routes fly over any of them), and because they have substantial legal markets of their own in which clerks can seek jobs.

OP here. Yeah I agree with you. What I meant to
say was going to NYC but clerkship is in another state. Thought maybe that would affect the advice I was given

[Anonymous User]

OP already has his answer but for other people who may stumble onto this thread, I would advise that unless you have a situation like OP here where your firm holds your offer for you untill you finish your clerkship, I def. would not take a flyover clerkship over a top firm gig. As a former flyover clerk, I can tell you that the knowledge you obtain is pretty much the same all across federal courts when it comes to applying federal rules of procedure and what not (the only issues that are different are situations where you have a circuit split). However, district court in flyover states may have less volume and diverse cases (generally but not always) than the major states. So other than the diverse and volume of cases (and quality of life), the clerkship experience is pretty much the same. The major difference is how firms treat these clerkships. Clerkship in flyover district has less pull outside of the area/circuit it sits in. So unless you have a secured offer or want to work in that flyover district, I highly advise taking the firm gig and then re-apply as an alum in the districts you desire. My 2 cents!

[DELG]

If you're worried about not having the chance to do it again, don't be. There are lots of judges who exclusively hire clerks with at least a few years' experience. I know of a COA judge who has a pretty firm 8+ years' experience for candidates.

My judge wants around 3, and only wants people with litigation experience.

But who wants to clerk after 8 years of experience. That sounds dreadful.

I know someone who did this to spend more time with small children. It worked out well for all involved.

[Anonymous User]

OP got his answer, but what would you advise a SA at a midsize firm in a big NE city who has bites from SSCs for clerkships? The firm is too small to ask the "hiring committee" about their clerkship policy, but the younger associates who were offered jobs mentioned that the firm said, "we can't promise you that there will be an offer for you after you clerk." So, the associates decided not to pursue clerking. I am the only SA, so an offer from the firm is very likely.

[nothingtosee]

If you're worried about not having the chance to do it again, don't be. There are lots of judges who exclusively hire clerks with at least a few years' experience. I know of a COA judge who has a pretty firm 8+ years' experience for candidates.

My judge wants around 3, and only wants people with litigation experience.

But who wants to clerk after 8 years of experience. That sounds dreadful.

People who don't make partner and get pushed out of their firm with little notice (like my current co-clerk).

People (like me) who want to career clerk.

People who get tired of private practice and want a stable, low-stress, rewarding and challenging position that pays decently.

How much does a career clerk make?

[A. Nony Mouse]

If it's federal, look up the JS-scale. It's good money - you hit 6 figures after a few years. It's not biglaw but in most cases it's a pretty excellent balance of pay/hours/lack of stress.