Post clerkship recruiting: Bad year, bad sample, or TLS myth Forum

[09042014]

I know about 4 people who are struggling in post clerkship recruiting. Luckily they can go back to their firms, but they wanted to move and are having a really hard time.

Is 2014 a bad year, do I just have a bad sample, or does TLS massively overvalue clerskhips.

[Anonymous User]

I know about 4 people who are struggling in post clerkship recruiting. Luckily they can go back to their firms, but they wanted to move and are having a really hard time.

Is 2014 a bad year, do I just have a bad sample, or does TLS massively overvalue clerskhips.

Opps this is DF. Meant to post regular. Anonymouse help me out bro.

[09042014]

I know about 4 people who are struggling in post clerkship recruiting. Luckily they can go back to their firms, but they wanted to move and are having a really hard time.

Is 2014 a bad year, do I just have a bad sample, or does TLS massively overvalue clerskhips.

Opps this is DF. Meant to post regular. Anonymouse help me out bro.

God I am retarded today.

[rayiner]

Based on my experience just finishing a post-clerkship job search, I'll make a few points:

1) Post-clerkship recruiting is dicier than recruiting as a 2L. A lot of firms just aren't looking to grow their class size, and the ones that are hiring are more selective firms generally and are pickier about fit than they are at the 2L OCI stage. I went 1 for 4 on the post-clerkship callbacks I took, versus 4 for 7 as a 2L. And to be perfectly honest, I walked out of each of the post-clerkship callbacks where I got dinged feeling better about my execution than I did after any of the 2L callbacks where I got an offer.

2) At the post-clerkship stage, most firms are looking to fill spots in particular practice areas. This is particularly relevant if you do two clerkships or a year at a firm then a clerkship. Nobody wants a rising third-year associate who still wants to dabble in different practice areas. Some firms, like Arnold & Porter, will *only* interview post-clerks in response to specific job openings.

3) Only a minority of people will get a firm job post-clerkship that they couldn't have as a 2L. Lots of people will fail to get a job post-clerkship that they could have gotten as a 2L (because those firms have no openings).

I guess the bottom line is that a clerkship isn't employment magic. It's probably easier than lateraling as a first or second year associate, but harder than getting an SA spot as a 2L.

[Anonymous User]

Based on my experience just finishing a post-clerkship job search, I'll make a few points:

3) Only a minority of people will get a firm job post-clerkship that they couldn't have as a 2L. Lots of people will fail to get a job post-clerkship that they could have gotten as a 2L (because those firms have no openings).

I guess the bottom line is that a clerkship isn't employment magic. It's probably easier than lateraling as a first or second year associate, but harder than getting an SA spot as a 2L.

Stupid question for sake of clarification. I was near top of my class at a T2, was a SA (got the job offer), doing a d.ct. now and a CoA after. I'm set to go back to my firm in 2016, but I'd much rather work in the area where I'm doing the CoA clerkship (disclosure: not New York), so I'm going to apply there during that clerkship. In law school, I almost certainly couldn't have gotten an offer from firms in that area because my school wasn't situated there and wasn't a national powerhouse like Yale.

So when you say "couldn't have as a 2L" do you mean in terms of grades and such? My grades etc. are fine, the only thing that looks a little iffy is that my school is outside the top 50. Truth be told, I was kind of banking on the CoA clerkship being my way of entering into that specific legal market.

Thanks.

[rayiner]

Based on my experience just finishing a post-clerkship job search, I'll make a few points:

3) Only a minority of people will get a firm job post-clerkship that they couldn't have as a 2L. Lots of people will fail to get a job post-clerkship that they could have gotten as a 2L (because those firms have no openings).

I guess the bottom line is that a clerkship isn't employment magic. It's probably easier than lateraling as a first or second year associate, but harder than getting an SA spot as a 2L.

Stupid question for sake of clarification. I was near top of my class at a T2, was a SA (got the job offer), doing a d.ct. now and a CoA after. I'm set to go back to my firm in 2016, but I'd much rather work in the area where I'm doing the CoA clerkship (disclosure: not New York), so I'm going to apply there during that clerkship. In law school, I almost certainly couldn't have gotten an offer from firms in that area because my school wasn't situated there and wasn't a national powerhouse like Yale.

So when you say "couldn't have as a 2L" do you mean in terms of grades and such? My grades etc. are fine, the only thing that looks a little iffy is that my school is outside the top 50. Truth be told, I was kind of banking on the CoA clerkship being my way of entering into that specific legal market.

Thanks.

I honestly have no idea how a firm would evaluate a COA clerk who went to a T2 outside the region. If the firm would hire someone with similar grades from its local T2, then I'd imagine you'd have a shot. A lot depends on what market you're talking about. In my city, you'd have had a rough time because the big firms just weren't looking for very many clerks. I would certainly apply very broadly, and not get cocky just because you've got a COA clerkship.

At least unlike with OCI, you don't have limited "bids" so there isn't any reason not to blanket every firm in the region.

[rad lulz]

So basically AIII isn't some magic post 3L lifeboat to biglaw if you've never worked in one of those firms before?

[Anonymous User]

Based on my experience just finishing a post-clerkship job search, I'll make a few points:

3) Only a minority of people will get a firm job post-clerkship that they couldn't have as a 2L. Lots of people will fail to get a job post-clerkship that they could have gotten as a 2L (because those firms have no openings).

I guess the bottom line is that a clerkship isn't employment magic. It's probably easier than lateraling as a first or second year associate, but harder than getting an SA spot as a 2L.

Stupid question for sake of clarification. I was near top of my class at a T2, was a SA (got the job offer), doing a d.ct. now and a CoA after. I'm set to go back to my firm in 2016, but I'd much rather work in the area where I'm doing the CoA clerkship (disclosure: not New York), so I'm going to apply there during that clerkship. In law school, I almost certainly couldn't have gotten an offer from firms in that area because my school wasn't situated there and wasn't a national powerhouse like Yale.

So when you say "couldn't have as a 2L" do you mean in terms of grades and such? My grades etc. are fine, the only thing that looks a little iffy is that my school is outside the top 50. Truth be told, I was kind of banking on the CoA clerkship being my way of entering into that specific legal market.

Thanks.

I was in similar shoes as you. T2, good grades, Fed. CoA clerkship, and I applied very broadly, to markets that have never ever hired from my T2. In my home market and the market my clerkship was in, I had tons of offers with little effort. I also applied to the big cities. I got: 1 phone screener in NYC; 5-6 phone screeners in DC, 4-5 call backs, 2-3 offers; 0 screeners in LA (although I applied there very late); 4-5 phone screeners in SF; 2 call backs; 2 offers. Right after I graduated, I took the bar for my home state (which is also the state where my clerkship was). Because I thought I’d have my best luck in CA, I took the bar there the next February. My 1 NY screener was obviously put off by the fact that I had taken 2 bars, and neither were NY.

In your clerkship market, your judge is king. He can almost certainly land you something, or at least put you in touch with former clerks of his that are now influential at the local firms. My judge’s former clerks would sometimes stop in and check to see if we needed help landing jobs in the area.

[legalese_retard]

In your clerkship market, your judge is king. He can almost certainly land you something, or at least put you in touch with former clerks of his that are now influential at the local firms. My judge’s former clerks would sometimes stop in and check to see if we needed help landing jobs in the area.

Must be nice. I tried that route but most of the judge's former clerks went into the government or are at firms that aren't hiring.

In one case, I couldn't tell if one of the former clerks was trying to be a jerk, or was just clueless. Since he is at a V50 firm, the judge called him on my behalf. When the former clerk called me back, he first acted confused as to the point of me wanting to speak with him. When I explained that I was job searching and the judge suggested that I contact his former law clerks for job leads/contacts, he told me that his firm is definitely not hiring. However, he then suggested that I submit my application to a "1-800-DIVORCE" type firm because he "was sure a firm like that would be hiring" since its commercials were always on TV.

Just for kicks, I checked the firm's website, but it doesn't even list the profiles of the attorneys that work at the firm. I was able to find some current attorneys that work there based on their LinkedIn profiles, and lots of them went to law schools that aren't even ABA-accredited. The firm is actually known for being a sweatshop where the attorneys make less than $35K/year with minimal bonus potential.

I realize beggars can't be choosers, but is it seriously that bad out there? It just amazes me that most former clerks are getting firm jobs that are paying six figures plus clerkship bonuses of $50K, while I am being told to apply to a firm that pays less annually than the typical clerkship bonus. I wasn't expecting a job at some V10 or even an AMLaw 200 firm. But I was hoping to get a firm job that pays more than what I am currently making as a judicial law clerk. Are my expectations really too high?

[bk1]

In one case, I couldn't tell if one of the former clerks was trying to be a jerk, or was just clueless. Since he is at a V50 firm, the judge called him on my behalf. When the former clerk called me back, he first acted confused as to the point of me wanting to speak with him. When I explained that I was job searching and the judge suggested that I contact his former law clerks for job leads/contacts, he told me that his firm is definitely not hiring. However, he then suggested that I submit my application to a "1-800-DIVORCE" type firm because he "was sure a firm like that would be hiring" since its commercials were always on TV.

What a dick.

[IAFG]

When I explained that I was job searching and the judge suggested that I contact his former law clerks for job leads/contacts, he told me that his firm is definitely not hiring. However, he then suggested that I submit my application to a "1-800-DIVORCE" type firm because he "was sure a firm like that would be hiring" since its commercials were always on TV.

I will be happy when you have a job and this is allowed to be funny.

[09042014]

When I explained that I was job searching and the judge suggested that I contact his former law clerks for job leads/contacts, he told me that his firm is definitely not hiring. However, he then suggested that I submit my application to a "1-800-DIVORCE" type firm because he "was sure a firm like that would be hiring" since its commercials were always on TV.

I will be happy when you have a job and this is allowed to be funny.

It's funny now.

[nevdash]

jfc, reading this and similar threads makes me want to try for COA after my district court clerkship ends because I'm now convinced that I'll be jobless in a year. A lot of the problems in post-clerkship job searching seem to be specific to firms, though. Does anyone know if government hiring is any better lately? Even ignoring bigfed, how do DAs' offices generally look at federal clerks, for example?

[legalese_retard]

jfc, reading this and similar threads makes me want to try for COA after my district court clerkship ends because I'm now convinced that I'll be jobless in a year. A lot of the problems in post-clerkship job searching seem to be specific to firms, though. Does anyone know if government hiring is any better lately? Even ignoring bigfed, how do DAs' offices generally look at federal clerks, for example?

I think bigfed is being overwhelmed at the moment in terms of hiring. Ever since the DOJ lifted its hiring freeze, there have been tons of job openings for AUSA gigs across the country. Problem is, you have several big law associates that have been put on hold for AUSA positions because of the freeze, and now they can start applying. Add to the fact that many AUSA offices had "Special AUSA Attorneys" (i.e. the attorneys that worked for free) and I am sure that they will be given special consideration for these openings.

As far as DA offices, I think that as long as you are open to any DA office in the country, you should be safe. Not all states/cities are in the same position when it comes to hiring DAs. Some have the funds to take on new attorneys, others are struggling and laying off attorneys. I think DAs really like hiring former law clerks, but if they don't have the money, they can't hire you even if you had the best credentials.

[84651846190]

In one case, I couldn't tell if one of the former clerks was trying to be a jerk, or was just clueless. Since he is at a V50 firm, the judge called him on my behalf. When the former clerk called me back, he first acted confused as to the point of me wanting to speak with him. When I explained that I was job searching and the judge suggested that I contact his former law clerks for job leads/contacts, he told me that his firm is definitely not hiring. However, he then suggested that I submit my application to a "1-800-DIVORCE" type firm because he "was sure a firm like that would be hiring" since its commercials were always on TV.

What a dick.

Yeah, constantly interacting with people like this makes practicing law a real treat.

[Anonymous User]

In one case, I couldn't tell if one of the former clerks was trying to be a jerk, or was just clueless. Since he is at a V50 firm, the judge called him on my behalf. When the former clerk called me back, he first acted confused as to the point of me wanting to speak with him. When I explained that I was job searching and the judge suggested that I contact his former law clerks for job leads/contacts, he told me that his firm is definitely not hiring. However, he then suggested that I submit my application to a "1-800-DIVORCE" type firm because he "was sure a firm like that would be hiring" since its commercials were always on TV.

What a dick.

Yeah, constantly interacting with people like this makes practicing law a real treat.

Oh that guy certainly hung up the phone and felt honestly, genuinely proud of himself for helping out a young attorney. He probably went home and told his wife about it.

As to the OP, it's pretty bad out there. My judge is particularly well-known by the practicing bar and there's still no movement yet.

[Anonymous User]

jfc, reading this and similar threads makes me want to try for COA after my district court clerkship ends because I'm now convinced that I'll be jobless in a year. A lot of the problems in post-clerkship job searching seem to be specific to firms, though. Does anyone know if government hiring is any better lately? Even ignoring bigfed, how do DAs' offices generally look at federal clerks, for example?

Recently started a clerkship and it seems like all the gov't agencies actively recruit clerks. I've already gotten 3 emails sent to all the clerks (DA, AUSA, fed defenders) "who are encouraged to apply directly to [this person]." A few of the recent clerks and soon-to-be outgoing clerks also have landed in government (AUSA, AG, one career clerk is now a state court judge . . .).

One clerk went into big law in a major city market after clerking for almost 5 years. He said he had no shot at firms during OCI, even in 2006 (we went to the same school so we talked candidly about it), so who knows what that means.

But I think this is all selection bias because most clerks here seem to be government-oriented. Only a couple want to go into private practice AFAIK. I might try for firms depending on where and when my wife goes to grad school.

TL;DR based on my anecdotal information, going into government after clerking seems easier.

[Anonymous User]

I'm finishing up a 2 year district court clerkship this summer. Applied to about 150 firms in the general geographic area of the city I'm clerking in. Pretty much any firm over 20 or so attorneys got my resume, so in addition to the target firms that I was shooting for, many of them were non-major-city firms that I'd really never heard of until consulting a list of the biggest firms in the state. I say that just to clarify that I wasn't only hitting up prestigious firms on the V100, or AmLaw200, or NLJ350.

I got a handful of "nope, we already hired a bunch of our summer associates so we have no need" emails, but mostly just never heard from anyone. Had a few interviews/meetings with people my Judge knows at local firms, and they all went well, but those people all remain unsure if there will be a business need to hire anyone this year and frankly don't seem all that optimistic about it.

It's weird the way you hear so many people (including partners who are involved in hiring) gush about the value firms place on clerkship experience, but then you actually send applications and nobody cares. Well, either that or everyone's very impressed but still not hiring, which is a slightly nicer thought but still lands you in the same place.

[Anonymous User]

In your clerkship market, your judge is king. He can almost certainly land you something, or at least put you in touch with former clerks of his that are now influential at the local firms. My judge’s former clerks would sometimes stop in and check to see if we needed help landing jobs in the area.

This is very true for my judge. If I wanted to stay in the area where my clerkship is, I would have zero problem getting a job here. One of my co-clerks has one lined up, and I've basically been offered a couple of jobs (albeit ones I wasn't particularly interested in).

[Anonymous User]

It's weird the way you hear so many people (including partners who are involved in hiring) gush about the value firms place on clerkship experience, but then you actually send applications and nobody cares. Well, either that or everyone's very impressed but still not hiring, which is a slightly nicer thought but still lands you in the same place.

Oh yeah, everyone is really impressed! At one firm, I interviewed with a mix of people in "niche practice" and "huge practice." Had great interviews with everyone in niche practice. The partner heading up niche practice said I had a "gold-plated resume." I made it clear I was interested in niche practice rather than booming practice. The ding letter was dated the same day as the interview. Nobody needs prestigious paperweights.

[Anonymous User]

I got a handful of "nope, we already hired a bunch of our summer associates so we have no need" emails, but mostly just never heard from anyone. Had a few interviews/meetings with people my Judge knows at local firms, and they all went well, but those people all remain unsure if there will be a business need to hire anyone this year and frankly don't seem all that optimistic about it.

So, in that vein, is it completely insane to apply a year in advance before they make their SA picks? It's starting to look like there's nothing to lose sending stuff out in June, then just reapplying in January if there are no bites.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to this for NY V10 Big Law -> DC firms? Non-NY/DC federal district clerkship. Would that be enough to jump?

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to this for NY V10 Big Law -> DC firms? Non-NY/DC federal district clerkship. Would that be enough to jump?

Doable, but apply broadly. I did NYC V10 to DC with a COA (not 2/9/DC). Apply up and down the V100 if moving to DC is really key for you. There just aren't many openings, and its not like OCI where having a certain level of grades will guarantee you a spot somewhere. I had callbacks at W&C and Covington, and got no response or snail mail dings down the V50. The not-vault ranked firm I was really into sent me a nice (sorry but we're full) email. And anyway, DC isn't like NYC. Firms throughout the V100 have practices that are well-regarded by Chambers. If you're looking to move into some regulatory practice, apply to literally everyone that does it, and have a backup plan. At this stage, firms are looking to fill specific needs.

[Anonymous User]

or does TLS massively overvalue clerskhips.

Most clerks don't use a clerkship to be able to get a big law job. That would not make much sense given how much harder it is to get a clerkship than a big law job. I would suspect the vast majority summered in big law and many will return to their firms.

So it does not make much sense to measure the value of clerkships by looking at the relatively small percentage of clerks who never summered. At least two things will confound looking at that group: (1) even if they are qualified, the resumes of these types of clerks will scream PI; and (2) some judges look for different things than firms. so some clerks may not actually have had the credentials for big law at OCI (see T2 person doing COA). I do not know how these people fare. I am sure it cannot help (especially in your clerkship market) but I am not sure how much it helps.

Now, if you are talking about people who did summer, have offers, and are looking to transfer firms (usually to more selective or harder to get markets), that is much more typical. Here, I agree with rayiner. Clerkships are not employment magic. Some, but not all, clerks are able to transfer to more selective firms, some to markets they prefer, and some to non-big law jobs. But hiring tends to be a lot less predictable than OCI.

But again this isn't why a clerkship is valuable. Among other things, its value comes from the work you are able to do, the connections you make, and the awesome legal job being a clerk is. And many selective firms want and/or require their summers to clerk (see, e.g., Susman).

To add some more anecdotal evidence: All of my co-clerks summered at big law firms and/or litigation boutiques. Two of us will be returning to the firms we summered at. The third switched markets (from a secondary market into a reputable, but not tippy top, DC big law firm) and the fourth has been interviewing with very selective boutiques (awaiting results). I don't think I know anyone who did not summer and then was trying to get a big law job.

[Anonymous User]

I'm graduating now and doing a 1-year clerkship next year. Say I want to go do a different firm than my SA firm.

When do I start applying? Is it like a 3L job search, where I network first but mail if all else fails? Do all firms wait on post-clerkship job offers until spring, or is it possible for me to take care of this before my clerkship even starts? Do I need to worry about the fact that I'm looking getting back to my SA firm?