RE: Your Clerkship Experience Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am curious on how current (or former) clerks feel about their skill development since they started clerking. Obviously, it is one of the best opportunities to learn as much as you can in short amount of time. However, I am curious about:
1) how far along into your clerkship did you feel like you have basically learned what you are going to learn and things basically became redundant?
2) Did you feel like your judge assisted in your development (if so to what extent?) or did you feel like you was just learning on your own?
3) Did you get no feedback, moderate feedback, or extensive feedback?
4) Was the clerkship as good as you thought it would be or did it surpass (or fail) your expectations coming into it?
5) Did the clerkship value translate to the extent you anticipated or is clerkship value exaggerated?

Thanks in advance for those of you who answer (please try to answer in the numbered format for consistency sake).

[Anonymous User]

Current COA clerk in a major market nearing the end of my year term. I'll take a shot at your questions.

1) For the most part, I doubt it ever becomes redundant. Every new case presents its own challenge. You are exposed to an incredible diversity of legal issues. You become much better over time at figuring out how to approach different kinds of cases, so it becomes faster and easier in a sense. But many cases are very challenging puzzles to crack. If they weren't, the litigants would have settled or given up after losing in district court.

2) Our judge absolutely assists in our development. But the judge isn't handing out gold stars for good memos. We are treated like professionals. The judge listens to our advice, reads our memos, and discusses the cases with us. The judge questions us about cases. Sometimes the judge will give an overt lesson about this or that, but mostly it's learning by osmosis. You also learn a ton of substantive law in dealing with the variety of cases you encounter. Your research and writing skills improve as well, of course, as you start to get a better sense of what's persuasive in the court.

3) This will vary from judge to judge of course. Our judge gives little to no feedback. You are not there to be taught by the judge; that was what law school was for. You are there to help the judge decide cases. The judge will tell you if you need to be doing something differently to perform in that role.

4) I think the clerkship has been great. I had high expectations going in and my clerkship has lived up to the hype. The work is rewarding and challenging, our chambers is warm and friendly, and I feel like I'm gaining experience that will make me a better lawyer. I have a much better understanding now what things look like from the decision-maker's perspective. I believe Holmes said practicing law is nothing more than predicting what a court will do. You certainly get better at that during a clerkship.

5) I guess it depends on what you value. If you're talking job prospects, I think it's just a correlation, not causation, that clerks do better in the job market. I'm not sure how much the clerkship itself improves your marketability, except in academia. Some litigation firms require clerkships, so there's that. Depending on your judge, you could have an impressive alumni network, especially in the city where the judge sits. That can pay dividends. Clients like having a lawyer who clerked for the judge, so firms like having lawyers who clerked for judges. As for intangible value, it's tremendous. Basically if you don't like this job, you shouldn't be a lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a district court clerk in a large coastal city. I would basically echo everything the above poster said. Sounds a lot like my experience so far. It's been a blast.

[Anonymous User]

D. ct. clerk.

1) how far along into your clerkship did you feel like you have basically learned what you are going to learn and things basically became redundant?

It hasn't happened and I doubt it will. There are some things I could do in my sleep, but there are always new and interesting issues.

2) Did you feel like your judge assisted in your development (if so to what extent?) or did you feel like you was just learning on your own?

Absolutely. I went straight from LS into clerking, so I had (have) no idea about how litigation works. He has taught me a tremendous amount.

3) Did you get no feedback, moderate feedback, or extensive feedback?

Extensive. His chambers is a mandatory open-door policy with him and all the clerks (he has 1 career then staggered 2-year ones). We discuss everything we need to discuss openly and freely.

4) Was the clerkship as good as you thought it would be or did it surpass (or fail) your expectations coming into it?

It has surpassed it beyond my highest expectations. I guess that's a bit of an overstatement because, as luck of the draw (docket) would have it, I haven't gotten assigned any of the "big" civil cases. We all work together on most major cases, but other co-clerks have been the ones primarily responsible for the judge's really big cases since I've gotten here.

5) Did the clerkship value translate to the extent you anticipated or is clerkship value exaggerated?

Above and beyond, I think. After 1.5 years I have a good idea of how federal courts operate. I don't know how I could ever have learned what I have or how long it would have taken.

[Chekhov'sGun]

Do any of you have an interest in eventually being a judge at some level and if so, how beneficial do you think clerking would be in making that happen?

[Anonymous User]

Do any of you have an interest in eventually being a judge at some level and if so, how beneficial do you think clerking would be in making that happen?

I recently heard a federal judge say that planning to be a judge was like planning to win the lottery or planning to get struck by lightning. While your odds of becoming a judge are probably slightly better than that, the point is clear - it's very hard to do, and especially difficult to plan for. That being said, if you look (on the federal level, at least) at judges appointed in recent years, many of them had clerkships. But many of them didn't, too. I think it could only help, though.

[Chekhov'sGun]

I recently heard a federal judge say that planning to be a judge was like planning to win the lottery or planning to get struck by lightning. While your odds of becoming a judge are probably slightly better than that, the point is clear - it's very hard to do, and especially difficult to plan for. That being said, if you look (on the federal level, at least) at judges appointed in recent years, many of them had clerkships. But many of them didn't, too. I think it could only help, though.

Thanks! Where did you see the fed judge clerkship stuff at? I have looked at some FJC/Wiki bio's but it was a little tedious. I was also curious about anyone who might have an interest in being a judge at the state level which seems a little more attainable depending on what state you are in. I feel like in states where judges are elected that having a strong network from clerking with a state/fed judge would be helpful if you eventually wanted to pursue being a judge, but not really sure.

[Anonymous User]

1) how far along into your clerkship did you feel like you have basically learned what you are going to learn and things basically became redundant?

I felt like I had the basic requirements of my job down maybe 6-10 months in, but you always keep learning more about different areas of law, or different situations that come up for the first time (sort of the difference between learning how to clerk, and learning the law for all the different cases you handle as a clerk). I think an appeals clerkship is "easier" to learn than a DCt one, because the range of what you do as a clerk is narrower.

2) Did you feel like your judge assisted in your development (if so to what extent?) or did you feel like you was just learning on your own?

Yes, in different ways (two judges). One was extremely hands-on and absolutely made me a better writer, researcher, and thinker. The other was fairly hands-off, in that the whole point of having clerks was for us to do the research/writing s/he didn't want to do, so I learned more by doing than by direction. But I learned a lot about what a trial court judge does and prioritizes, and that kind of thing s/he was happy to talk about more. (I actually learned the most law/procedure from the career clerk in that position.)

3) Did you get no feedback, moderate feedback, or extensive feedback?

First judge - TONS of feedback. Everything went through at least three drafts. Second judge - little feedback, what I produced was generally approved without comment and went right out the door (again, the clerk in that chambers was more hands-on).

4) Was the clerkship as good as you thought it would be or did it surpass (or fail) your expectations coming into it?

Pretty much what I thought it would be.

5) Did the clerkship value translate to the extent you anticipated or is clerkship value exaggerated?

For me, it absolutely wasn't exaggerated, because I had to have a federal clerkship to eligible to apply for the job I currently have. (And doing the first clerkship got me the second.) But that's not the case for everyone.

Do any of you have an interest in eventually being a judge at some level and if so, how beneficial do you think clerking would be in making that happen?

To be absolutely honest, yes, I would like to be a judge eventually (though I don't think it's actually going to happen for me). I think a lot of judges - but by no means all - have clerked, but I think it's more correlation than causation (it tends to be something you do if you excel in law school, a lot of judges are people who excelled in law school). It may also be more common in systems (federal/certain states) where judges are appointed rather than elected. In states where judges are elected, a lot seem to be former prosecutors (which doesn't really say anything about clerking, I just think that's how they get the network and connections). I'm sure connections to other state judges would be helpful - I just don't know much about how it works in states that elect judges. (And to be honest, I think electing judges is a terrible system and don't think I'd ever try to be a judge in a state where they're elected.)

[Anonymous User]

op here-

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. Much appreciated!

[84651846190]

I recently heard a federal judge say that planning to be a judge was like planning to win the lottery or planning to get struck by lightning. While your odds of becoming a judge are probably slightly better than that, the point is clear - it's very hard to do, and especially difficult to plan for. That being said, if you look (on the federal level, at least) at judges appointed in recent years, many of them had clerkships. But many of them didn't, too. I think it could only help, though.

Thanks! Where did you see the fed judge clerkship stuff at? I have looked at some FJC/Wiki bio's but it was a little tedious. I was also curious about anyone who might have an interest in being a judge at the state level which seems a little more attainable depending on what state you are in. I feel like in states where judges are elected that having a strong network from clerking with a state/fed judge would be helpful if you eventually wanted to pursue being a judge, but not really sure.

If you want to be a judge, you should be worrying a lot more about developing the political connections and reputation necessary to become a judge than checking arbitrary boxes like clerking. To the extent clerking furthers your political connections and reputation, you should do it. Otherwise, you'd be much better served working in your local party chapter and volunteering in your community in some capacity.

[Shaggier1]

If you want to be a judge, you should be worrying a lot more about developing the political connections and reputation necessary to become a judge than checking arbitrary boxes like clerking. To the extent clerking furthers your political connections and reputation, you should do it. Otherwise, you'd be much better served working in your local party chapter and volunteering in your community in some capacity.

I think this probably depends very much on the court on which you would like to sit. Additionally, they are not mutually exclusive. And even if they are temporarily mutually exclusive in the sense that you have to limit your political/fundraising activities while clerking, you can easily make those connections/permeate those networks after your clerkships. Also, for anyone with Article III aspirations, those political associations could hurt late on when your "confirmability" is being evaluated.

[Anonymous User]

Do any of you have an interest in eventually being a judge at some level and if so, how beneficial do you think clerking would be in making that happen?

I would love to be a judge. I can't imagine a better (law-related) job. But I doubt clerking is necessary or sufficient to become a judge. I've talked with a few judges (both state and federal) about how one might become a judge, and they both said it's just an incredible amount of luck and being at the right place at the right time. Part of that is your political connections, unless it's in a state with elections.

A state supreme court justice I interned for was very honest about this. We had a group intern/judge lunch and when asked to explain how he got on the court, his response was "My law school roommate became governor and he appointed me." It was the truth, and I don't really think there's anything wrong with that.