Let's Talk 9th Circuit! Forum

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on new nominee?

[Anonymous User]

Any insight on what percentage of H's from Y/S one would need to be competitive for a feeder like Fletcher? Everything in this thread says top 5% but no idea how that actually translates to H's / prizes. On a side note, if one had 100% H's / a singular P but no class prizes, are they competitive? Or are prizes basically a requisite to rank that high in the first place?

[Anonymous User]

Any insight on what percentage of H's from Y/S one would need to be competitive for a feeder like Fletcher? Everything in this thread says top 5% but no idea how that actually translates to H's / prizes. On a side note, if one had 100% H's / a singular P but no class prizes, are they competitive? Or are prizes basically a requisite to rank that high in the first place?

It varies widely. For Fletcher in particular, as he has gotten older, he has relaxed his grade requirements (and also fed less). So I don't know what it would have been when he fed more. But today you would not need to be top 5%.

[pizzacat]

Any insight on what percentage of H's from Y/S one would need to be competitive for a feeder like Fletcher? Everything in this thread says top 5% but no idea how that actually translates to H's / prizes. On a side note, if one had 100% H's / a singular P but no class prizes, are they competitive? Or are prizes basically a requisite to rank that high in the first place?

It varies widely. For Fletcher in particular, as he has gotten older, he has relaxed his grade requirements (and also fed less). So I don't know what it would have been when he fed more. But today you would not need to be top 5%.

Thanks. Any insight on what top 5% at S looks like?

[Anonymous User]

Any insight on what percentage of H's from Y/S one would need to be competitive for a feeder like Fletcher? Everything in this thread says top 5% but no idea how that actually translates to H's / prizes. On a side note, if one had 100% H's / a singular P but no class prizes, are they competitive? Or are prizes basically a requisite to rank that high in the first place?

It varies widely. For Fletcher in particular, as he has gotten older, he has relaxed his grade requirements (and also fed less). So I don't know what it would have been when he fed more. But today you would not need to be top 5%.

Thanks. Any insight on what top 5% at S looks like?

I don't know much about Fletcher's hiring specifically, but I do know that at S, top 5% will usually mean more prizes than Ps -- and typically, it will mean quite a few more prizes than Ps. It depends on the year, of course, but to be in the top 5% you need to be in the top ~9 students in a given class. And in most years there are at least 2-4 students walking around with 10+ prizes and no more than 1 or 2 Ps. The students just below that level round out the top 5%

[pizzacat]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

4-5 prizes by the end of 3L? If so, that's actually fewer than I'd expect for SCOTUS, especially since some people finish 1L alone with 4+ prizes (though this is probably no more than 6 or 7 of the class, if that). Though I suppose if all other grades are literally H's and they finished 3L with 1, maybe 2 P's, it makes sense given that their transcript is essentially flawless. And I'm sure they had strong backing from at least one (probably more, though makes sense given that these people all run in the same circle anyway) person on your list.

My sense is that people chill out more than you would think as law school progresses and that if at the end of 3L you have no more than 3 P's, you are comfortably top 10%, perhaps even higher, regardless of how many prizes you have. From your post it sounds like ending 3L with almost all H's and with 4-5 prizes might even put someone in the top 5% of the class. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but do you reckon this is true?

And how do people tend to get "noticed" by those professors? Is it just a matter of doing well in their respective classes (ex. PK 14A, NFE Torts/Ethics, DFE CivPro/Admin, a McConnell elective) + connecting with them some other way, namely SCOTUS clinic / TAing / Directed Research? And does "doing well" necessarily mean booking those classes, or do you reckon they might still go to bat for you (and not necessarily just for SCOTUS, but for any clerkship) even if you "only" got an H, perhaps even a P? Assuming they like you as a person and your grades/credentials are otherwise excellent, of course.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know if Birotte in CDCA has moved? Oscar listing still open

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

4-5 prizes by the end of 3L? If so, that's actually fewer than I'd expect for SCOTUS, especially since some people finish 1L alone with 4+ prizes (though this is probably no more than 6 or 7 of the class, if that). Though I suppose if all other grades are literally H's and they finished 3L with 1, maybe 2 P's, it makes sense given that their transcript is essentially flawless. And I'm sure they had strong backing from at least one (probably more, though makes sense given that these people all run in the same circle anyway) person on your list.

My sense is that people chill out more than you would think as law school progresses and that if at the end of 3L you have no more than 3 P's, you are comfortably top 10%, perhaps even higher, regardless of how many prizes you have. From your post it sounds like ending 3L with almost all H's and with 4-5 prizes might even put someone in the top 5% of the class. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but do you reckon this is true?

And how do people tend to get "noticed" by those professors? Is it just a matter of doing well in their respective classes (ex. PK 14A, NFE Torts/Ethics, DFE CivPro/Admin, a McConnell elective) + connecting with them some other way, namely SCOTUS clinic / TAing / Directed Research? And does "doing well" necessarily mean booking those classes, or do you reckon they might still go to bat for you (and not necessarily just for SCOTUS, but for any clerkship) even if you "only" got an H, perhaps even a P? Assuming they like you as a person and your grades/credentials are otherwise excellent, of course.

You're right that there are some Stanford people who finish with 4+ prizes at the end of 1L. I would reckon it's usually less than 6-7 people, but it just depends so much on how competitive the class ends up being. SLS seems to have a much stricter and flatter curve than HLS, for example, so it seems like it's much less predictable how class rank would shake out without knowing more about a specific graduating class.

On your question about someone at the end of 3L with 4-5 prizes and like 1 P, I do think it's reasonable to think they could end up in the top 5ish%, but it isn't a given. There are definitely some people walking away with 10+ prizes and essentially no Ps at the end of 3L, like I said above, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 3-5 people each year. (I say essentially no Ps because basically everyone gets at least 1 P because of the clinic curve). To know where a 4-5 prize person falls is tough because we'd need to know how many 5-10 prize people there are, and we need to decide how to weight Ps. So it all just depends. All this to say, there are definitely 4-5 prize people who have gotten SCOTUS -- but I do think it's preferred to stack up more prizes than that if you're making a run at the Court.

On your question about connecting with the big professors, the typical law school answer is unfortunately the right one: it depends. The absolute best thing one can do on this front is to be in SCOTUS clinic. The SCOTUS clinic instructors go to bat hard for their people, and the clinic alumni network is very connected. And as one would expect, doing well in a class taught by a big professor is another good way to get noticed. I don't think you need to get a prize, or even necessarily an H, for them to go to bat for you (though it certainly helps, and some big-time recommender profs, like AJO, seem to expect a good grade in their class if they're going to vouch for you). The most important thing seems to be participating in class, going to office hours, being a generally smart and (this is critical) likable person. Basically exactly what you'd expect.

The best way to connect with the Engstroms seems to be to TA for them and to be a part of the Rhode Center, which is their pet project on campus. And when it comes to McConnell, it's of course good to do well in his class, and he helps people across the political spectrum. But he always has some dedicated RAs who are FedSoc-affiliated, and builds close relationships with FedSoc chapter leadership, so that's a good way to get noticed by him in addition to taking his elective history classes.

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

4-5 prizes by the end of 3L? If so, that's actually fewer than I'd expect for SCOTUS, especially since some people finish 1L alone with 4+ prizes (though this is probably no more than 6 or 7 of the class, if that). Though I suppose if all other grades are literally H's and they finished 3L with 1, maybe 2 P's, it makes sense given that their transcript is essentially flawless. And I'm sure they had strong backing from at least one (probably more, though makes sense given that these people all run in the same circle anyway) person on your list.

My sense is that people chill out more than you would think as law school progresses and that if at the end of 3L you have no more than 3 P's, you are comfortably top 10%, perhaps even higher, regardless of how many prizes you have. From your post it sounds like ending 3L with almost all H's and with 4-5 prizes might even put someone in the top 5% of the class. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but do you reckon this is true?

And how do people tend to get "noticed" by those professors? Is it just a matter of doing well in their respective classes (ex. PK 14A, NFE Torts/Ethics, DFE CivPro/Admin, a McConnell elective) + connecting with them some other way, namely SCOTUS clinic / TAing / Directed Research? And does "doing well" necessarily mean booking those classes, or do you reckon they might still go to bat for you (and not necessarily just for SCOTUS, but for any clerkship) even if you "only" got an H, perhaps even a P? Assuming they like you as a person and your grades/credentials are otherwise excellent, of course.

You're right that there are some Stanford people who finish with 4+ prizes at the end of 1L. I would reckon it's usually less than 6-7 people, but it just depends so much on how competitive the class ends up being. SLS seems to have a much stricter and flatter curve than HLS, for example, so it seems like it's much less predictable how class rank would shake out without knowing more about a specific graduating class.

On your question about someone at the end of 3L with 4-5 prizes and like 1 P, I do think it's reasonable to think they could end up in the top 5ish%, but it isn't a given. There are definitely some people walking away with 10+ prizes and essentially no Ps at the end of 3L, like I said above, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 3-5 people each year. (I say essentially no Ps because basically everyone gets at least 1 P because of the clinic curve). To know where a 4-5 prize person falls is tough because we'd need to know how many 5-10 prize people there are, and we need to decide how to weight Ps. So it all just depends. All this to say, there are definitely 4-5 prize people who have gotten SCOTUS -- but I do think it's preferred to stack up more prizes than that if you're making a run at the Court.

On your question about connecting with the big professors, the typical law school answer is unfortunately the right one: it depends. The absolute best thing one can do on this front is to be in SCOTUS clinic. The SCOTUS clinic instructors go to bat hard for their people, and the clinic alumni network is very connected. And as one would expect, doing well in a class taught by a big professor is another good way to get noticed. I don't think you need to get a prize, or even necessarily an H, for them to go to bat for you (though it certainly helps, and some big-time recommender profs, like AJO, seem to expect a good grade in their class if they're going to vouch for you). The most important thing seems to be participating in class, going to office hours, being a generally smart and (this is critical) likable person. Basically exactly what you'd expect.

The best way to connect with the Engstroms seems to be to TA for them and to be a part of the Rhode Center, which is their pet project on campus. And when it comes to McConnell, it's of course good to do well in his class, and he helps people across the political spectrum. But he always has some dedicated RAs who are FedSoc-affiliated, and builds close relationships with FedSoc chapter leadership, so that's a good way to get noticed by him in addition to taking his elective history classes.

How does clinic grading work? Are you guaranteed to get at least one P? Do they really rank how people did in clinic and distribute H's accordingly or do they try and distribute them? (guessing it depends on the clinic)

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

4-5 prizes by the end of 3L? If so, that's actually fewer than I'd expect for SCOTUS, especially since some people finish 1L alone with 4+ prizes (though this is probably no more than 6 or 7 of the class, if that). Though I suppose if all other grades are literally H's and they finished 3L with 1, maybe 2 P's, it makes sense given that their transcript is essentially flawless. And I'm sure they had strong backing from at least one (probably more, though makes sense given that these people all run in the same circle anyway) person on your list.

My sense is that people chill out more than you would think as law school progresses and that if at the end of 3L you have no more than 3 P's, you are comfortably top 10%, perhaps even higher, regardless of how many prizes you have. From your post it sounds like ending 3L with almost all H's and with 4-5 prizes might even put someone in the top 5% of the class. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but do you reckon this is true?

And how do people tend to get "noticed" by those professors? Is it just a matter of doing well in their respective classes (ex. PK 14A, NFE Torts/Ethics, DFE CivPro/Admin, a McConnell elective) + connecting with them some other way, namely SCOTUS clinic / TAing / Directed Research? And does "doing well" necessarily mean booking those classes, or do you reckon they might still go to bat for you (and not necessarily just for SCOTUS, but for any clerkship) even if you "only" got an H, perhaps even a P? Assuming they like you as a person and your grades/credentials are otherwise excellent, of course.

You're right that there are some Stanford people who finish with 4+ prizes at the end of 1L. I would reckon it's usually less than 6-7 people, but it just depends so much on how competitive the class ends up being. SLS seems to have a much stricter and flatter curve than HLS, for example, so it seems like it's much less predictable how class rank would shake out without knowing more about a specific graduating class.

On your question about someone at the end of 3L with 4-5 prizes and like 1 P, I do think it's reasonable to think they could end up in the top 5ish%, but it isn't a given. There are definitely some people walking away with 10+ prizes and essentially no Ps at the end of 3L, like I said above, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 3-5 people each year. (I say essentially no Ps because basically everyone gets at least 1 P because of the clinic curve). To know where a 4-5 prize person falls is tough because we'd need to know how many 5-10 prize people there are, and we need to decide how to weight Ps. So it all just depends. All this to say, there are definitely 4-5 prize people who have gotten SCOTUS -- but I do think it's preferred to stack up more prizes than that if you're making a run at the Court.

On your question about connecting with the big professors, the typical law school answer is unfortunately the right one: it depends. The absolute best thing one can do on this front is to be in SCOTUS clinic. The SCOTUS clinic instructors go to bat hard for their people, and the clinic alumni network is very connected. And as one would expect, doing well in a class taught by a big professor is another good way to get noticed. I don't think you need to get a prize, or even necessarily an H, for them to go to bat for you (though it certainly helps, and some big-time recommender profs, like AJO, seem to expect a good grade in their class if they're going to vouch for you). The most important thing seems to be participating in class, going to office hours, being a generally smart and (this is critical) likable person. Basically exactly what you'd expect.

The best way to connect with the Engstroms seems to be to TA for them and to be a part of the Rhode Center, which is their pet project on campus. And when it comes to McConnell, it's of course good to do well in his class, and he helps people across the political spectrum. But he always has some dedicated RAs who are FedSoc-affiliated, and builds close relationships with FedSoc chapter leadership, so that's a good way to get noticed by him in addition to taking his elective history classes.

How does clinic grading work? Are you guaranteed to get at least one P? Do they really rank how people did in clinic and distribute H's accordingly or do they try and distribute them? (guessing it depends on the clinic)

Definitely depends on the clinic. There is a curve, and it's strict; the instructors can't really get out of it. I do think your performance matters a lot in some clinics, especially when it comes to how clinic prizes are distributed. And yes, I don't think anyone gets through it without at least one P, in any of the clinics, at least not that I know of. You're guaranteed a P because of clinic

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

4-5 prizes by the end of 3L? If so, that's actually fewer than I'd expect for SCOTUS, especially since some people finish 1L alone with 4+ prizes (though this is probably no more than 6 or 7 of the class, if that). Though I suppose if all other grades are literally H's and they finished 3L with 1, maybe 2 P's, it makes sense given that their transcript is essentially flawless. And I'm sure they had strong backing from at least one (probably more, though makes sense given that these people all run in the same circle anyway) person on your list.

My sense is that people chill out more than you would think as law school progresses and that if at the end of 3L you have no more than 3 P's, you are comfortably top 10%, perhaps even higher, regardless of how many prizes you have. From your post it sounds like ending 3L with almost all H's and with 4-5 prizes might even put someone in the top 5% of the class. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but do you reckon this is true?

And how do people tend to get "noticed" by those professors? Is it just a matter of doing well in their respective classes (ex. PK 14A, NFE Torts/Ethics, DFE CivPro/Admin, a McConnell elective) + connecting with them some other way, namely SCOTUS clinic / TAing / Directed Research? And does "doing well" necessarily mean booking those classes, or do you reckon they might still go to bat for you (and not necessarily just for SCOTUS, but for any clerkship) even if you "only" got an H, perhaps even a P? Assuming they like you as a person and your grades/credentials are otherwise excellent, of course.

You're right that there are some Stanford people who finish with 4+ prizes at the end of 1L. I would reckon it's usually less than 6-7 people, but it just depends so much on how competitive the class ends up being. SLS seems to have a much stricter and flatter curve than HLS, for example, so it seems like it's much less predictable how class rank would shake out without knowing more about a specific graduating class.

On your question about someone at the end of 3L with 4-5 prizes and like 1 P, I do think it's reasonable to think they could end up in the top 5ish%, but it isn't a given. There are definitely some people walking away with 10+ prizes and essentially no Ps at the end of 3L, like I said above, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 3-5 people each year. (I say essentially no Ps because basically everyone gets at least 1 P because of the clinic curve). To know where a 4-5 prize person falls is tough because we'd need to know how many 5-10 prize people there are, and we need to decide how to weight Ps. So it all just depends. All this to say, there are definitely 4-5 prize people who have gotten SCOTUS -- but I do think it's preferred to stack up more prizes than that if you're making a run at the Court.

On your question about connecting with the big professors, the typical law school answer is unfortunately the right one: it depends. The absolute best thing one can do on this front is to be in SCOTUS clinic. The SCOTUS clinic instructors go to bat hard for their people, and the clinic alumni network is very connected. And as one would expect, doing well in a class taught by a big professor is another good way to get noticed. I don't think you need to get a prize, or even necessarily an H, for them to go to bat for you (though it certainly helps, and some big-time recommender profs, like AJO, seem to expect a good grade in their class if they're going to vouch for you). The most important thing seems to be participating in class, going to office hours, being a generally smart and (this is critical) likable person. Basically exactly what you'd expect.

The best way to connect with the Engstroms seems to be to TA for them and to be a part of the Rhode Center, which is their pet project on campus. And when it comes to McConnell, it's of course good to do well in his class, and he helps people across the political spectrum. But he always has some dedicated RAs who are FedSoc-affiliated, and builds close relationships with FedSoc chapter leadership, so that's a good way to get noticed by him in addition to taking his elective history classes.

How does clinic grading work? Are you guaranteed to get at least one P? Do they really rank how people did in clinic and distribute H's accordingly or do they try and distribute them? (guessing it depends on the clinic)

Definitely depends on the clinic. There is a curve, and it's strict; the instructors can't really get out of it. I do think your performance matters a lot in some clinics, especially when it comes to how clinic prizes are distributed. And yes, I don't think anyone gets through it without at least one P, in any of the clinics, at least not that I know of. You're guaranteed a P because of clinic

SCOTUS clinic? Assuming probably strict but can't tell since I imagine they like to set up their students (who have presumably already done quite well if they're in the clinic).

[Anonymous User]

Makes sense. So for those who have 1-2 P's by the time clerkship hiring rolls around but also maybe "only" 1-2 class prizes (so just a bunch of H's across the board), what's the highest you think they could realistically go for? I assume competitive for 2nd/9th and most/all non-feeders but what about something like CADC? Like at what point would you say it becomes sort of a "requirement" that a student doesn't just have only 1-2 P's but also more than 1-2 class prizes?

This is a hard question to answer, just because it really depends. A lot will hinge on which judges you're applying for on those circuits and which professors are willing to go to bat for you. If Pam Karlan, Jeff Fisher, Easha, McConnell, and/or one of the Engstroms are willing to go to bat for you, that's going to help a lot. It also depends to a lesser extent on which classes your prizes are in.

I will say the general rule is that if you have more prizes than Ps, you should shoot your shot any and everywhere. But you should be aware that feeder judges (particularly big feeders) are going to be a longshot without more prizes, and a fortiori so will SCOTUS (a few of the recent S hires at SCOTUS had like 4-5 prizes, though at least one other recent SCOTUS hire had ~10+ prizes, so ymmv). DC can be a bit difficult market to break into, but if you're disciplined it's possible (though by no means a given) with your grades. Apply to the judges there, but just be aware that you're not a shoe-in and make your list of judges accordingly (and be sure to include DDC in addition to CADC). NYC is attainable, especially if you're willing to apply to SDNY and EDNY in addition to 2d Cir. And you should have some options on the 9th Cir., with the understanding that some of the most competitive judges are again going to be a longshot.

4-5 prizes by the end of 3L? If so, that's actually fewer than I'd expect for SCOTUS, especially since some people finish 1L alone with 4+ prizes (though this is probably no more than 6 or 7 of the class, if that). Though I suppose if all other grades are literally H's and they finished 3L with 1, maybe 2 P's, it makes sense given that their transcript is essentially flawless. And I'm sure they had strong backing from at least one (probably more, though makes sense given that these people all run in the same circle anyway) person on your list.

My sense is that people chill out more than you would think as law school progresses and that if at the end of 3L you have no more than 3 P's, you are comfortably top 10%, perhaps even higher, regardless of how many prizes you have. From your post it sounds like ending 3L with almost all H's and with 4-5 prizes might even put someone in the top 5% of the class. It's obviously impossible to know for sure but do you reckon this is true?

And how do people tend to get "noticed" by those professors? Is it just a matter of doing well in their respective classes (ex. PK 14A, NFE Torts/Ethics, DFE CivPro/Admin, a McConnell elective) + connecting with them some other way, namely SCOTUS clinic / TAing / Directed Research? And does "doing well" necessarily mean booking those classes, or do you reckon they might still go to bat for you (and not necessarily just for SCOTUS, but for any clerkship) even if you "only" got an H, perhaps even a P? Assuming they like you as a person and your grades/credentials are otherwise excellent, of course.

You're right that there are some Stanford people who finish with 4+ prizes at the end of 1L. I would reckon it's usually less than 6-7 people, but it just depends so much on how competitive the class ends up being. SLS seems to have a much stricter and flatter curve than HLS, for example, so it seems like it's much less predictable how class rank would shake out without knowing more about a specific graduating class.

On your question about someone at the end of 3L with 4-5 prizes and like 1 P, I do think it's reasonable to think they could end up in the top 5ish%, but it isn't a given. There are definitely some people walking away with 10+ prizes and essentially no Ps at the end of 3L, like I said above, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 3-5 people each year. (I say essentially no Ps because basically everyone gets at least 1 P because of the clinic curve). To know where a 4-5 prize person falls is tough because we'd need to know how many 5-10 prize people there are, and we need to decide how to weight Ps. So it all just depends. All this to say, there are definitely 4-5 prize people who have gotten SCOTUS -- but I do think it's preferred to stack up more prizes than that if you're making a run at the Court.

On your question about connecting with the big professors, the typical law school answer is unfortunately the right one: it depends. The absolute best thing one can do on this front is to be in SCOTUS clinic. The SCOTUS clinic instructors go to bat hard for their people, and the clinic alumni network is very connected. And as one would expect, doing well in a class taught by a big professor is another good way to get noticed. I don't think you need to get a prize, or even necessarily an H, for them to go to bat for you (though it certainly helps, and some big-time recommender profs, like AJO, seem to expect a good grade in their class if they're going to vouch for you). The most important thing seems to be participating in class, going to office hours, being a generally smart and (this is critical) likable person. Basically exactly what you'd expect.

The best way to connect with the Engstroms seems to be to TA for them and to be a part of the Rhode Center, which is their pet project on campus. And when it comes to McConnell, it's of course good to do well in his class, and he helps people across the political spectrum. But he always has some dedicated RAs who are FedSoc-affiliated, and builds close relationships with FedSoc chapter leadership, so that's a good way to get noticed by him in addition to taking his elective history classes.

How does clinic grading work? Are you guaranteed to get at least one P? Do they really rank how people did in clinic and distribute H's accordingly or do they try and distribute them? (guessing it depends on the clinic)

Definitely depends on the clinic. There is a curve, and it's strict; the instructors can't really get out of it. I do think your performance matters a lot in some clinics, especially when it comes to how clinic prizes are distributed. And yes, I don't think anyone gets through it without at least one P, in any of the clinics, at least not that I know of. You're guaranteed a P because of clinic

SCOTUS clinic? Assuming probably strict but can't tell since I imagine they like to set up their students (who have presumably already done quite well if they're in the clinic).

Everyone in SCOTUS clinic gets at least 1 P

[Anonymous User]

I think this distinction in terms of “bands” can be helpful for future CA9 applicants, so will also chime in based on what I’ve seen from my T-14 for the “liberal” judges (or at least those who don’t necessarily hire through the FedSoc pipeline)

Judges for whom top 10% is necessary but not sufficient: Fletcher, Friedland, Berzon, Koh

Basically for the rest of the Dem-appointees, having good grades is obviously helpful but it’s not the same kind of necessary precondition. Owens, Sanchez, Wardlaw, Paez, Nguyen, Christen, etc. have all hired clerks without honors distinctions. Owens will hire with the right kind of recommendation, Paez values public interest experience, Christen likes people with an interest in Alaska, etc.

They’re all exceptionally good and very competitive clerkships, but they don’t require the grades/LR credentials in the same way as the first band of judges.

Based on other comments on this thread, would the bands for R-appointed judges that still hire full clerk classes look something like this?

Very competitive: Bress, Collins, Miller

Competitive: Bade, Bennett, Bybee, Callahan, Clifton, Forrest, Ikuta, Lee

More based on FedSoc ties: Bumatay, Nelson, VanDyke