Penn clerkships Forum

[Anonymous User]

What GPA do you need to clerk in a random part of the country, vs. EDPA or more competitive districts?

There is no answer to this question. Obviously, the higher the better but it will depend on the judge. If you want a general GPA, I'd say like a 3.5+ is probably decent for a lot of the flyover districts.

But I frankly think it's a common misconception to assume that random or flyover districts are far easier for students at schools like Penn to get. It's certainly true that the general threshold credentials (in terms of school rank and grades) are significantly lower for these clerkships, but a lot of the judges in those areas do not care that much about those credentials. Don't assume that a district judge in Iowa or wherever is dying for Ivy league applicants. A lot of them are quite happy to take solid students from the flagship state schools in the area instead.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic but I've seen people make this mistake and I just want to temper expectations. That being said, I firmly believe that anyone around median or better is in play for clerkships from Penn. If you really want one and you are geographically flexible, you can get one. You just need to accept that you will probably have to work first and put in some networking time.

[Anonymous User]

What GPA do you need to clerk in a random part of the country, vs. EDPA or more competitive districts?

There is no answer to this question. Obviously, the higher the better but it will depend on the judge. If you want a general GPA, I'd say like a 3.5+ is probably decent for a lot of the flyover districts.

But I frankly think it's a common misconception to assume that random or flyover districts are far easier for students at schools like Penn to get. It's certainly true that the general threshold credentials (in terms of school rank and grades) are significantly lower for these clerkships, but a lot of the judges in those areas do not care that much about those credentials. Don't assume that a district judge in Iowa or wherever is dying for Ivy league applicants. A lot of them are quite happy to take solid students from the flagship state schools in the area instead.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic but I've seen people make this mistake and I just want to temper expectations. That being said, I firmly believe that anyone around median or better is in play for clerkships from Penn. If you really want one and you are geographically flexible, you can get one. You just need to accept that you will probably have to work first and put in some networking time.

Most judges in small districts seek to hire the most-qualified clerks with hard ties. Sometimes that means top students from HYS, sometimes that means top students at X State U. But it probably means not you. It’s worth applying broadly, and there are exceptions, but for most there is no GPA that can get you serious consideration as a complete outsider. If you’re an insider, good grades at a T14 (top third or so) should make you competitive—you need to be at the level where they’d rather hire you than the #1 at Iowa or your peers with ties at T14s.

[Anonymous User]

What GPA do you need to clerk in a random part of the country, vs. EDPA or more competitive districts?

There is no answer to this question. Obviously, the higher the better but it will depend on the judge. If you want a general GPA, I'd say like a 3.5+ is probably decent for a lot of the flyover districts.

But I frankly think it's a common misconception to assume that random or flyover districts are far easier for students at schools like Penn to get. It's certainly true that the general threshold credentials (in terms of school rank and grades) are significantly lower for these clerkships, but a lot of the judges in those areas do not care that much about those credentials. Don't assume that a district judge in Iowa or wherever is dying for Ivy league applicants. A lot of them are quite happy to take solid students from the flagship state schools in the area instead.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic but I've seen people make this mistake and I just want to temper expectations. That being said, I firmly believe that anyone around median or better is in play for clerkships from Penn. If you really want one and you are geographically flexible, you can get one. You just need to accept that you will probably have to work first and put in some networking time.

Most judges in small districts seek to hire the most-qualified clerks with hard ties. Sometimes that means top students from HYS, sometimes that means top students at X State U. But it probably means not you. It’s worth applying broadly, and there are exceptions, but for most there is no GPA that can get you serious consideration as a complete outsider. If you’re an insider, good grades at a T14 (top third or so) should make you competitive—you need to be at the level where they’d rather hire you than the #1 at Iowa or your peers with ties at T14s.

What are "hard" ties

[Anonymous User]

What GPA do you need to clerk in a random part of the country, vs. EDPA or more competitive districts?

There is no answer to this question. Obviously, the higher the better but it will depend on the judge. If you want a general GPA, I'd say like a 3.5+ is probably decent for a lot of the flyover districts.

But I frankly think it's a common misconception to assume that random or flyover districts are far easier for students at schools like Penn to get. It's certainly true that the general threshold credentials (in terms of school rank and grades) are significantly lower for these clerkships, but a lot of the judges in those areas do not care that much about those credentials. Don't assume that a district judge in Iowa or wherever is dying for Ivy league applicants. A lot of them are quite happy to take solid students from the flagship state schools in the area instead.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic but I've seen people make this mistake and I just want to temper expectations. That being said, I firmly believe that anyone around median or better is in play for clerkships from Penn. If you really want one and you are geographically flexible, you can get one. You just need to accept that you will probably have to work first and put in some networking time.

Most judges in small districts seek to hire the most-qualified clerks with hard ties. Sometimes that means top students from HYS, sometimes that means top students at X State U. But it probably means not you. It’s worth applying broadly, and there are exceptions, but for most there is no GPA that can get you serious consideration as a complete outsider. If you’re an insider, good grades at a T14 (top third or so) should make you competitive—you need to be at the level where they’d rather hire you than the #1 at Iowa or your peers with ties at T14s.

What are "hard" ties

Grew up there/went to law school there/already committed to practicing there (ideally as many of those as possible). Not "I've visited a lot" or "I have family in the area."

[Anonymous User]

What GPA do you need to clerk in a random part of the country, vs. EDPA or more competitive districts?

There is no answer to this question. Obviously, the higher the better but it will depend on the judge. If you want a general GPA, I'd say like a 3.5+ is probably decent for a lot of the flyover districts.

But I frankly think it's a common misconception to assume that random or flyover districts are far easier for students at schools like Penn to get. It's certainly true that the general threshold credentials (in terms of school rank and grades) are significantly lower for these clerkships, but a lot of the judges in those areas do not care that much about those credentials. Don't assume that a district judge in Iowa or wherever is dying for Ivy league applicants. A lot of them are quite happy to take solid students from the flagship state schools in the area instead.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic but I've seen people make this mistake and I just want to temper expectations. That being said, I firmly believe that anyone around median or better is in play for clerkships from Penn. If you really want one and you are geographically flexible, you can get one. You just need to accept that you will probably have to work first and put in some networking time.

Most judges in small districts seek to hire the most-qualified clerks with hard ties. Sometimes that means top students from HYS, sometimes that means top students at X State U. But it probably means not you. It’s worth applying broadly, and there are exceptions, but for most there is no GPA that can get you serious consideration as a complete outsider. If you’re an insider, good grades at a T14 (top third or so) should make you competitive—you need to be at the level where they’d rather hire you than the #1 at Iowa or your peers with ties at T14s.

What are "hard" ties

Roughly I think the hardest tie is demonstrated interest in practicing in the area. Growing up there is probably next, followed by going to undergrad or law school there, followed by marrying someone from there. Personal references like prominent law firm partners, judges, and former clerks are also helpful but probably just derivative of the former list. Beyond that I don’t think much will catch the eye in a cover letter.

[Anonymous User]

Other family ties don’t count even if you didn’t grow up there? I thought one of the sample cover letters on the OCS website even had something about grandparents in Texas

[Anonymous User]

Other family ties don’t count even if you didn’t grow up there? I thought one of the sample cover letters on the OCS website even had something about grandparents in Texas

I think you can put it on a cover letter but it’s unlikely to move the needle alone.

[Anonymous User]

Other family ties don’t count even if you didn’t grow up there? I thought one of the sample cover letters on the OCS website even had something about grandparents in Texas

I'm one of the people who posted before. Grandparents in Texas is definitely a tie to Texas, but I was talking about the diehard hard-core local homer judges. Parsing ties too finely is going to start down a ridiculous rabbit hole, but since someone mentioned "hard" local ties, if you're going to make a distinction between "hard" and "soft", there are judges who will always take someone who grew up locally over someone who just visited family there, especially if you had grandparents there but there's nothing to suggest you want to live/work there.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of judges who don't feel this way, I'm sure more (probably way more) than are the diehard local homers (I can't even begin to hazard a guess at proportions). But I was just following up on the earlier suggestion that some small/rural districts aren't actually easy to get coming from Penn or any other non-local school even if highly ranked. That is, it's not always just a question of being willing to where no one else wants to go, b/c judges in the sort of conventionally undesirable places can be the type who really want locals.

In the grand scheme of things, this is an edge case. Many judges define ties more broadly and many judges won't care as long as they can feel confident that you actually want to be there and you won't spend the year complaining about how crappy it is or how you don't know anyone. Anyway, if your tie is local grandparents, play up your local grandparents and that's totally fine.