Movement Today Forum

[Anonymous User]

Interview invite from a smaller district (~8-12 judges).

[Anonymous User]

Jeez this thread has me shook. Submitted like 75 district court apps yesterday to judges across the country and haven't heard a peep. I had no idea that judges would be making decions so quickly. Do people really think that if you don't hear back this week then your shit out of luck for a 2020 clerkship? With a 4.0 at a T25, law review, moot court, a handful of CALIs, lots of government experience, I thought I would be competitive to land at least 1 interview. Damn that would be depressing if after spending all that time on these apps, I couldn't even get a sniff, just having all my apps immeaditley trashed cause I don't go to Harvard or Yale. Haha oh well, mostly just venting at this point. Haven't asked my reccomenders to make calls yet, so guess I will do that tonight and hope for the best. Y'all really know how to freak a guy out

I'm in a similar boat. I applied to SDNY/DNJ/EDNY (for personal reasons, I cannot leave NYC), submitted a total of close to 60 apps, mixture of Oscar and paper, as a current associate in a litigation boutique, law review e-board, and top 5% from a T20. Not a peep. Was actually #1 at the end of 1L, grades dropped as I started to prioritize other things. I didn't have anybody make calls because my school is not an east coast school, and I had no personal connections.

It sucks that this game is so heavily dependent on calls and connections, but that's life, I guess.

Calls/connections are important for feeders at the top circuits, but not necessarily for non-feeders at top circuits (CA2/9/DC). For my CA2/9/DC judge, eg., you didn't need someone making a call, but you did need top grades from HYSCCN. That last part can be key, unfortunately: top ~10% at HYS > literally *the* top ~10 students at a lower-end T20.

One of the things I've learned/seen firsthand, FWIW, is how important the decision can be to go to HYS even if it means paying more tuition on the front end, so that you can get doors opened on the back end without needing absolutely perfect grades. Some of the "common wisdom" on TLS -- ie, "go to a top-10 school if you get a lot of financial aid over HYS at sticker price because the opportunities are roughly the same if you can do well" -- is just totally false. Clerkship chances, and the boutique firms with absolutely ridiculous salaries they can lead to, are a big part of why that's so false.

CoA clerk/ex dj clerk here. I’d broaden your assessment on the importance of calls to beyond feeder COA and prominent district court judges to just a general necessity in this process but more acutely for 2ls/3ls. Can only speak to my own experience and what I’ve learned through others, but a lot of judges do only resort to the OSCAR pile when a short list candidate who was brought to their attention through other avenues doesn’t pan out for whatever reason. OSCAR is a huge smoke and mirrors game and no clerkship committee or career services office is going to tell you about OSCAR’s sorting features that screens out huge numbers of candidates without having to open the applications. The furthest they’ll go is to say the process is competitive so if you can apply broadly. But your competitive candidate who applies to a large number of judges in multiple geographic areas has a pretty low chance of getting employment on their own once you factor in judges who sort via Oscar, judges who won’t hire outside of the top 6/14, judge who only hire local grads, judges who won’t hire from school x because they had one or multiple dud/arrogant clerks, and judges who only enter the hiring cycle every two plus years because they keep their clerks. And that’s why calls/being on a short list is probably the best credential to have.

[timmyd]

Thanks so much. Super helpful. Do you weigh prior federal district clerkships more heavily than other types? What about magistrate?

Hm, I don't think we had that comparison this time around, but I think I would probably view them this way:
District Court > [This] State Supreme Court > Fed. Magistrate > Other State Supreme Courts > Other State Appellate Courts
(We would weight our own state supreme court highly, because our judge also has a preference for ties to this state).
ETA: This sort of assumes that you are doing a double district because you want to stay HERE. If that isn't the case, then a [This] State Supreme Court clerkship would probably be higher than a district court clerkship.

We didn't get any apps from Bankruptcy Court clerks or any other specialty court like that, so I don't really know how I would think of those.
Fwiw, we did get an applicant who is clerking on a non 2/9/DC Circuit right now, and they did not make it to the list of 15. So much of this is idiosyncratic.

Can you re-phrase your earlier question about transfers?

Sure. Just generally curious as to how your judge views transfers, especially alumni transfers that started at lo ranked schools but moved up to the top 13-20.

[hlsboi2020]

gentle request to bring more general questions/discussion to another thread (like clerks taking questions http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... start=2975 ) so that we can keep this thread for updates/insight on the current cycle?

[Anonymous User]

Just as a quick note to maybe show how random this process is: someone I know has 5+ circuit interviews, including with judges on CA2, CA9, and CADC, but hasn't heard back from a single district judge despite applying to many. This is a lottery and nobody should feel bad if it's not going as well as hoped so far.

[Anonymous User]

Just as a quick note to maybe show how random this process is: someone I know has 5+ circuit interviews, including with judges on CA2, CA9, and CADC, but hasn't heard back from a single district judge despite applying to many. This is a lottery and nobody should feel bad if it's not going as well as hoped so far.

(Anon from earlier)

I mean I'm sure your friend has crazy stats, which makes this understanable. I think mine and some of the other applicants main gripe is that we submitted a ton of applications (in my case across the board and not even to super competitive districts), thought we were competitive, and have been met with complete silence thus far. I am hoping that some of the reports in this thread are exaggerated and that a portion of judges didn't just immeaditley sort through their applications and extend all their interview offers. But it it turns out that the real movement occurred this week and that everyone who wasn't contacted is largely out of luck for 2020 because 2Ls were essentially forced to put all our eggs into the OSCAR bucket due to all the unclearness surrounding this year's plan, that would be a huge bummer.

OSCAR is seriously useless as an application platform. Most judges put the most vague standards for what their looking for in applicants (top 25%, maybe work experienced preferred, etc.), that really we have no idea if we'll be seriously considered. If it turns out that after 60 or 70 or 100 or however many applications, that 80% of my applications were immeaditley discarded on the realease date without even being opened because I don't go to X or Y school, then there is no way not to be disheartened. I get that chambers must have gotten inundated with applications on Monday, but if the Judges had any idea that they were going to apply specific filters to the application pool, why not give some type of indication on their OSCAR profile?

Ik Ik there life-appointed FEDERAL judges who can't be concerned with the wimbs of mere law school students, but if the whole point of this federal clerkship plan, and judges participation in it, is to make the whole clerkship hiring process fairer and avoid the rat race that exsisted in prior years, then this thread makes it seem like that plan has seriously failed.

The only way this could be considered a lottery is that if everyone was allowed to buy tickets, but in reality only the people earning over $100k are entered into the draw without the mere $50k earners being any the wiser.

I get it clerkship applications are competitive and no one should expect an interview, but damn what a way to get your hopes immeaditley crushed. Here's to hoping that those of us who haven't already gotten 5+ interviews might still have a shot

[nixy]

So I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, at all - I just don't think that most of this is really the fault of OSCAR/the plan. Judges don't really get any fewer applications when there isn't a plan in place and they're still going to filter/cut on the same bases; this has just made it slightly more obvious.

(That said, I would also be *really* surprised if everyone moved this week - some chambers have different hiring schedules and aren't going to change for the plan, some aren't following the plan at all, some judges are out of town, some chambers are in trial etc.)

[Anonymous User]

So I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, at all - I just don't think that most of this is really the fault of OSCAR/the plan. Judges don't really get any fewer applications when there isn't a plan in place and they're still going to filter/cut on the same bases; this has just made it slightly more obvious.

(That said, I would also be *really* surprised if everyone moved this week - some chambers have different hiring schedules and aren't going to change for the plan, some aren't following the plan at all, some judges are out of town, some chambers are in trial etc.)

In my view OSCAR/the plan are pretty integral part to my main gripe if what has been said in this thread is believed to be true.

So say I am a competitive applicant (someone you'd expect could/would get a clerkship), but not a super competitive applicant (top of the class at HYS, law review, etc.). I applied to 100 spots. Because of the plan say one judge I applied to, got 1000 applications that were all released to chambers on the same date. Obviously they are not going to look at all 1000 applications at one time, so they apply some filters that immeaditley delete 75% of the pool. Say you have to be at one of ten schools, on law review, and in the top 15% to make the cut. Definitely quality applicants, who should get clerkships. But what if I'm in the top 5% at a T20 school, or did moot court, or some other smaller part of my application gets me filtered out. Out of necessity because of the plan, chambers are having to apply stricter filters (if that's what we believe there doing) because they are dealing with a ton of applications all at one time. Say of my 100 applications, 70 are immeadtily discarded without even being opened. That means that I am now down to 30 potential shots of just having my application read at all.

While before the plan when applications would trickle in or at least not all be released on the same date, there was a much better chance that a clerk would at least glance at my materials before deleting my application. Now this thread makes it seem that the plan has caused the filtering/culling of the applicant pool to be put on steroids. That hour I spent on writing a cover letter specifically tailored to your judge, doesn't matter. As soon as my application was released on Monday it immeaditley got filtered out. Thing wasn't even read.

This all is only compounded by the fact that Judges have been considering non-2L applicants this entire time.

[Anonymous User]

This is when it's time to misquote Star Wars: "Patience, young Padawan." We're talking about three days into the Plan. I know it's hard to remember, but federal judges have a lot of other things to worry about than 2Ls who want clerkships! Yes, there are indeed some judges that called applicants at 12:01, interviewed them at 2, and had offered them by the end of the day. There are also (district) judges who are in week-long trials and aren't even going to start thinking about apps until at least next week. There are also a number of judges who didn't abide by the plan, and many more who aren't trying to hire "SCOTUS-able" clerks and therefore simply don't feel the need to make this their top priority over everything else.

Speaking as someone who witnessed the "Old Plan" work and then fall apart, was hired in part on Old Plan and hired in part after the plan fell apart, and who has been involved in clerk hiring both off plan and on "New Plan," I think there are distinct pros and cons to both systems - I truly don't think one is objectively better. When the old/new plan was/is in place, having secret information about who's hiring when won't matter for those following the plan. This somewhat levels the playing field by allowing applicants to know when they should apply by, June 17, and by marginally elevating the importance of grades. But the reality is that on-plan hiring still elevates the importance of well situated recommenders who will call or email, given the condensed hiring timeline. And generally speaking, those well-situated recommenders are the same people who would have been most likely to know when off-plan judges were going to hire, so on some level it's different flavors of the same evil. And there is a downside to the plan: it creates the false impression that everyone should expect an interview within 12 hours of the start time or else they won't get a clerkship - that's patently untrue. Think of the person with 5 circuit interviews - even if they got all 5, they can only accept one (or maybe, *maybe* two). Eventually, four other people will get clerkships, just not on day one (or two, or ten). Perhaps worse, the plan creates the impression that this is an objective process, but it is never, ever an objective process. Judges are human. Humans have irrational, or, at least, idiosyncratic, preferences. It is a numbers game in part, yes, but whose number gets called is not just based on GPA, or school, or recommender, but any of a number of things- where you went to school, where you live, who you worked for 1L summer, whose section you were randomly placed in 1L year, what your job was before law school, etc. The plan can't, and won't, ever fully alleviate that.

But off plan wasn't necessarily any better. For one thing, what I thought was especially toxic about off-plan hiring was that it was rife with gossip and the fetishizing/withholding of information about when certain judges would or were considering applicants. (Of course, that was relevant for a handful of the top law schools and for a couple dozen judges, so for most schools, and most judges, this was somewhat irrelevant either way.) But perhaps it's better to at least have a clerk look at your application for 30 seconds than to never even be told that judge was hiring at all? Moreover, off plan hiring massively favored YHS, because judges hired earlier and earlier each year in an off-plan world, and when you had fewer grades to go on, judges increasingly relied even more on recommenders, and, to some degree, pre-law school softs (all of which favored YHS students). In an on-plan world, a fancy recommender whose student gets mediocre grades 2L spring can't turn water into wine, but they might have been able to do so in a world where that student was applying after 1L year with fewer grades. So really, in my mind, what the plan does is make 2L grades matter more, all other things equal, and recommenders/softs matter less.

Tl;dr: don't blame the plan, blame the system. There are way more qualified applicants than positions, judges are idiosyncratic, and like everything else in life, it's as much about who you know as what your qualifications are. Plan or no plan, that's not going to change.

[Anonymous User]

So I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, at all - I just don't think that most of this is really the fault of OSCAR/the plan. Judges don't really get any fewer applications when there isn't a plan in place and they're still going to filter/cut on the same bases; this has just made it slightly more obvious.

(That said, I would also be *really* surprised if everyone moved this week - some chambers have different hiring schedules and aren't going to change for the plan, some aren't following the plan at all, some judges are out of town, some chambers are in trial etc.)

In my view OSCAR/the plan are pretty integral part to my main gripe if what has been said in this thread is believed to be true.

So say I am a competitive applicant (someone you'd expect could/would get a clerkship), but not a super competitive applicant (top of the class at HYS, law review, etc.). I applied to 100 spots. Because of the plan say one judge I applied to, got 1000 applications that were all released to chambers on the same date. Obviously they are not going to look at all 1000 applications at one time, so they apply some filters that immeaditley delete 75% of the pool. Say you have to be at one of ten schools, on law review, and in the top 15% to make the cut. Definitely quality applicants, who should get clerkships. But what if I'm in the top 5% at a T20 school, or did moot court, or some other smaller part of my application gets me filtered out. Out of necessity because of the plan, chambers are having to apply stricter filters (if that's what we believe there doing) because they are dealing with a ton of applications all at one time. Say of my 100 applications, 70 are immeadtily discarded without even being opened. That means that I am now down to 30 potential shots of just having my application read at all.

While before the plan when applications would trickle in or at least not all be released on the same date, there was a much better chance that a clerk would at least glance at my materials before deleting my application. Now this thread makes it seem that the plan has caused the filtering/culling of the applicant pool to be put on steroids. That hour I spent on writing a cover letter specifically tailored to your judge, doesn't matter. As soon as my application was released on Monday it immeaditley got filtered out. Thing wasn't even read.

This all is only compounded by the fact that Judges have been considering non-2L applicants this entire time.

Obviously all judges/clerks do this differently, but I'm a current CA2 clerk and we looked at, at a minimum, the resume and transcript of every applicant (several hundred) who applied this week. It's certainly an exhausting process, but if you applied to my judge, your application was read.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone here about Judge Rao, Katsas, or others on the DC Cir?

[Anonymous User]

So I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, at all - I just don't think that most of this is really the fault of OSCAR/the plan. Judges don't really get any fewer applications when there isn't a plan in place and they're still going to filter/cut on the same bases; this has just made it slightly more obvious.

(That said, I would also be *really* surprised if everyone moved this week - some chambers have different hiring schedules and aren't going to change for the plan, some aren't following the plan at all, some judges are out of town, some chambers are in trial etc.)

In my view OSCAR/the plan are pretty integral part to my main gripe if what has been said in this thread is believed to be true.

So say I am a competitive applicant (someone you'd expect could/would get a clerkship), but not a super competitive applicant (top of the class at HYS, law review, etc.). I applied to 100 spots. Because of the plan say one judge I applied to, got 1000 applications that were all released to chambers on the same date. Obviously they are not going to look at all 1000 applications at one time, so they apply some filters that immeaditley delete 75% of the pool. Say you have to be at one of ten schools, on law review, and in the top 15% to make the cut. Definitely quality applicants, who should get clerkships. But what if I'm in the top 5% at a T20 school, or did moot court, or some other smaller part of my application gets me filtered out. Out of necessity because of the plan, chambers are having to apply stricter filters (if that's what we believe there doing) because they are dealing with a ton of applications all at one time. Say of my 100 applications, 70 are immeadtily discarded without even being opened. That means that I am now down to 30 potential shots of just having my application read at all.

While before the plan when applications would trickle in or at least not all be released on the same date, there was a much better chance that a clerk would at least glance at my materials before deleting my application. Now this thread makes it seem that the plan has caused the filtering/culling of the applicant pool to be put on steroids. That hour I spent on writing a cover letter specifically tailored to your judge, doesn't matter. As soon as my application was released on Monday it immeaditley got filtered out. Thing wasn't even read.

This all is only compounded by the fact that Judges have been considering non-2L applicants this entire time.

I get your frustration, but I have to make 2 points. First, you should not be spending even 1 hour on a cover letter. Cover letters are typically glanced at quickly for logistical info: what term you're applying for, who your recommenders are, and maybe whether you have a local connection to the court you're sending the app to. That should take maybe 10 minutes. Taking 1 hour on a cover letter is a sign that something's gone wrong, and also just the wrong place to think you can add value.

Second, the plan was not put in place to address the type of concerns you're voicing. It was put in place so that judges stop pushing up the arms-race type timing of clerkship apps, which was reaching the point of absurdity. When I was applying, CA2/DC/9 judges were taking in applications after -- I kid you not -- *one semester* of 1L grades from HYS. Other judges thought this was too much, even some feeders conceded the point, and the plan was put in place. The goals it was addressing (of how to slow down the arms race for elite students) are just not the type of thing you're frustrated about. So, it's no surprise that a different sort of weakness in the process has been revealed. My suspicion (as an insider at this point) is that after feeder & CA2/9/DC judges are done (should be in the next day or two, if not already), the rest of the applicants will get sorted out, and you will find a court to clerk on (if you were already a strong candidate before the plan: the total numbers of judges looking to hire hasn't changed). You won't have as many options as you otherwise might have, but that's life, unfortunately: there's a hierarchy, and no variation of a plan/not having a plan will change that fact.

[nixy]

It's true that a judge isn't going to read (say) 1000 applications at once, but when there's no one specific date for applications to come in, judges are highly unlikely to wait to interview until they've looked at 1000 applications. They'll read applications that are in when they feel like hiring and hire when they find someone they like, and lots of people's apps will never come to their attention because they'll hire before they even see them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the plan is great (I don't think the earlier one worked well either) and would be happy for it to go away (not that I have a personal interest, I'm not applying right now). I just think it's highlighting problems inherent to the process rather than creating them (though certainly not solving those problems). Any filters judges are applying are what they're already thinking anyway. And comparing rising 2Ls and experienced candidates is always going to be an issue (personally I think less conventional applicants benefit from applying with experience under any system).

Anyway, seriously wishing you luck and hoping you get something.

[Anonymous User]

Any filters judges are applying are what they're already thinking anyway.

With some small variation across chambers, this is pretty much it. The plan just compressed the timing and made pre-existing filters more stark/apparent for everyone to see.

[stoopkid13]

So I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, at all - I just don't think that most of this is really the fault of OSCAR/the plan. Judges don't really get any fewer applications when there isn't a plan in place and they're still going to filter/cut on the same bases; this has just made it slightly more obvious.

(That said, I would also be *really* surprised if everyone moved this week - some chambers have different hiring schedules and aren't going to change for the plan, some aren't following the plan at all, some judges are out of town, some chambers are in trial etc.)

Yeah I'm not sure why the plan would make clerkship hiring more competitive. I think the only (admittedly disheartening) change is you basically know when a judge has rejected you, and it all happens at once.

I was hired off plan after sending out maybe 50-60 applications. It was my first and only interview, so as far as I know, I got rejected by the everyone else. And striking out for the vast majority of your applications isn't uncommon--I think that happens to most clerks.

Clerkship hiring isn't OCI where there are far more offers than applicants, so most people feel like they are getting bites and have options.

Also, aren't there actually more judges now because of all of Trump's appointments?

[stoopkid13]

So I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, at all - I just don't think that most of this is really the fault of OSCAR/the plan. Judges don't really get any fewer applications when there isn't a plan in place and they're still going to filter/cut on the same bases; this has just made it slightly more obvious.

(That said, I would also be *really* surprised if everyone moved this week - some chambers have different hiring schedules and aren't going to change for the plan, some aren't following the plan at all, some judges are out of town, some chambers are in trial etc.)

In my view OSCAR/the plan are pretty integral part to my main gripe if what has been said in this thread is believed to be true.

So say I am a competitive applicant (someone you'd expect could/would get a clerkship), but not a super competitive applicant (top of the class at HYS, law review, etc.). I applied to 100 spots. Because of the plan say one judge I applied to, got 1000 applications that were all released to chambers on the same date. Obviously they are not going to look at all 1000 applications at one time, so they apply some filters that immeaditley delete 75% of the pool. Say you have to be at one of ten schools, on law review, and in the top 15% to make the cut. Definitely quality applicants, who should get clerkships. But what if I'm in the top 5% at a T20 school, or did moot court, or some other smaller part of my application gets me filtered out. Out of necessity because of the plan, chambers are having to apply stricter filters (if that's what we believe there doing) because they are dealing with a ton of applications all at one time. Say of my 100 applications, 70 are immeadtily discarded without even being opened. That means that I am now down to 30 potential shots of just having my application read at all.

While before the plan when applications would trickle in or at least not all be released on the same date, there was a much better chance that a clerk would at least glance at my materials before deleting my application. Now this thread makes it seem that the plan has caused the filtering/culling of the applicant pool to be put on steroids. That hour I spent on writing a cover letter specifically tailored to your judge, doesn't matter. As soon as my application was released on Monday it immeaditley got filtered out. Thing wasn't even read.

This all is only compounded by the fact that Judges have been considering non-2L applicants this entire time.

I get your frustration, but I have to make 2 points. First, you should not be spending even 1 hour on a cover letter. Cover letters are typically glanced at quickly for logistical info: what term you're applying for, who your recommenders are, and maybe whether you have a local connection to the court you're sending the app to. That should take maybe 10 minutes. Taking 1 hour on a cover letter is a sign that something's gone wrong, and also just the wrong place to think you can add value.

Second, the plan was not put in place to address the type of concerns you're voicing. It was put in place so that judges stop pushing up the arms-race type timing of clerkship apps, which was reaching the point of absurdity. When I was applying, CA2/DC/9 judges were taking in applications after -- I kid you not -- *one semester* of 1L grades from HYS. Other judges thought this was too much, even some feeders conceded the point, and the plan was put in place. The goals it was addressing (of how to slow down the arms race for elite students) are just not the type of thing you're frustrated about. So, it's no surprise that a different sort of weakness in the process has been revealed. My suspicion (as an insider at this point) is that after feeder & CA2/9/DC judges are done (should be in the next day or two, if not already), the rest of the applicants will get sorted out, and you will find a court to clerk on (if you were already a strong candidate before the plan: the total numbers of judges looking to hire hasn't changed). You won't have as many options as you otherwise might have, but that's life, unfortunately: there's a hierarchy, and no variation of a plan/not having a plan will change that fact.

Yeah, part of the goal was to prevent 1Ls from stressing out about their first year grades as being their only door to a federal clerkship. With the plan, you now get to stress about your 2L grades as well!

[Anonymous User]

I fully understand that people are upset to have not heard anything. I would likely feel the same. But I think it’s a little unreasonable (1) to really act like this is the end of the world for your clerkship chances, and (2) honestly for ANYONE (absent a small handful of applicants) to have expected a ton of interviews.

I applied in the no plan world, and I didn’t land a clerkship (non-2/9/DC COA in a competitive city) until a year after I started applying. Without a plan, you wasted a lot of time and money applying to judges who weren’t looking at applications then. I mailed applications to judges in July and got letters back saying “not hiring now, resend your stuff in September.” But also, the norm after submitting apps was radio silence. For me, for my friends, for pretty much everyone I know. (And for context, talking T6 LR etc.). The way you got interviews 9/10 (and that tenth time seemed to be just sheer luck or having something in common with the judge that stood out to them) was by having someone call.

I guess my point is that nothing changed that much. The only difference is before, you wouldn’t know to expect all your calls at once because you never knew whether to expect anything at all. Go ask your professors/former employers/anyone you know who could help to send some calls/emails on your behalf.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts, some very interesting perspectives. Overall, on the whole I am fine with how everything is going. I never expected to receive an interview invite within the first week. If I end up getting a clerkship, great. If not, whatever, definitely not ideal but I guess I'll just apply for future terms. My main personal frustration has really been that I had no idea that decisions could/would be made so quickly before reading this thread. I probably jumped the gun and overgeneralized what was reported here to the vast majority of judges I applied to, but I got somewhat shell shocked in realizing that this thing I have been really working/grinding for (a 2020 clerkship) suddenly might not happen. It's just the immediacy of it and not realizing till after the fact that this thing I've put all this effort into had possibly already passed me by. Will see what happens, I do think that the more time that goes by without getting an interview the less likely it becomes (and this isn't even getting at the additional competition once you get to the interview stage), but it's still relatively early in the process and who knows what will happen. Best of luck to everyone still waiting to hear anything.

[Anonymous User]

Just dropping in to say that I’ve been told by a judge in 2 that several colleagues are waiting for the first wave to settle before going through applications. Since the competitive judges are all fighting over the top candidates right now, it’s not worth filtering through the applications until those people have had time to confirm whether they’re off the market. Judges who moved on Monday are also dipping further down into the applicant pool upon losing out on their top choices during the scramble. Based on this, I’d expect some more movement Friday or early next week, after the first round of offers have exploded.

[Anonymous User]

Very loosely, our cutoff for school rank:student rank for purposes of the first pass ended up being something like:
YSHCCN: we open/read all apps
8-14: above median
15-25: top 25%
26-50: top 10-15%
50 on down: literally the top 5 students

Well, this is comforting. I might never get an interview with your judge, but I appreciate you taking the time to read my materials.

As someone who went through this process once and is applying in the 2020 cycle as well, it doesnt feel like this chamber's admirable practice of reading applications based on these standards applies very broadly. I've applied to literally hundreds of clerkships and based on the number of interviews I got, I have to believe that by and large the vast majority of my oscar and mail applications were discarded without being read. This is despite having a relatively good academic record at a T14. There simply arent enough objective factors to choose from aside from grades, and all else equal it is easier for chambers to pull an application for an interview ahead of you if that application has even marginally better academic performance. IMO people get clerkships and get called for interviews based on (1) grades (2) recommendations from tenured professors with connections (3) diversity/adversity/background factors that you have no real control over once you've made it into law school.

[nixy]

Chambers interviewing people with better grades than you isn’t the same as your application not being read, though. I don’t think you can say that you know your application was discarded without being read. (Like if chambers prioritize grades and there were others with better grades, how would them having read your app and not picking you look any different from them having not read it at all? What is there about your app that makes you think there had to have been a different outcome if they’d read it so they didn’t read it?)

I get that this is a super frustrating process and I pretty much agree with the factors you identify being paramount, I guess I don’t get assuming there had to be some kind of bad faith at play. There are many more good candidates than there are positions.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone here about Judge Rao, Katsas, or others on the DC Cir?

Each has extended at least two interview invites.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone here about Judge Rao, Katsas, or others on the DC Cir?

Each has extended at least two interview invites.

Many judges on the DC Circuit have extended multiple offers, and students have been coming in all week. Harris (CA4 in Bethesda) has been doing the same thing.

[Anonymous User]

One more thing I'll say about this, having clerked in two feedery-type chambers reviewing apps, and having talked to many other clerks in chambers of all kinds: very few judges like hiring. Many loathe it, and most just want to minimize the time and energy they have to spend doing it. Most ideally want to interview a denominator of candidates as close to the numerator of positions as possible, because it's time-consuming, distracting, and almost no judge wants to be in the position of having to turn people down after they've interviewed them (which is why, of course, often times after a candidate interviews they get radio silence for weeks or months and eventually just assume it ain't happening). Also, judges are risk averse, and don't want to put themselves out there only to get rejected, or asked by a candidate for more time to decide, etc. They want to feel fairly certain that if they want the candidate, the candidate will want them.

If that's your prior for how judges behave, you can assume that: (a) calls and emails from recommenders that assure judges that if they bring someone in for an interview that the candidate will be sufficiently pleasant, intelligent, and qualified, and will accept if offered the position, will go a long way; (b) judges will take a lot of care to review applications, gather intel, etc., before extending an invitation for an interview - especially to students who go to law school halfway across the country; and (c) many judges will wait entirely to start the process until the feedery/gunnery judges have finished hiring, because (d) extending interviews, then having people cancel at the last minute, or interviewing someone and then have them turn you down hours later, or having a candidate ask for more time because they really want to clerk for someone else, are all highly, highly undesirable from the standpoint of the judge. They aren't used to being in the position of being told no, or being rejected, or being told they have to wait, so many will try to avoid being put in this position as much as possible. If you don't have a recommender going to bat for you, you are simply a more unknown entity and a riskier interview, all other things equal.

Now all of that said, you should assume that in most chambers the clerks will, in fact, go through every OSCAR and paper app. We certainly did, in both chambers, and we got hundreds of apps, and in both chambers the judges I clerked for received tons of phone calls from profs at the top schools, so in theory in either chambers we could easily have not bothered to review every app if we'd wanted to and still had a surplus of top candidates. We did go through every single one, however, because we'd all been on the other side of the process, and I think we felt an ethical obligation, not to mention a desire, to see if we could find those diamond-in-the-rough candidates who didn't come well recommended by influential profs but who were, in fact, terrific. And we did find a few.

At the same time, you can also assume that even if there's a lot of hiring now, there will be more hiring later. And while I totally understand it's desirable to get a clerkship for 2020, realize that a ton of the prospective 2020 clerks graduated in 2019 or earlier, so even a huge chunk of the people who *do* land clerkships aren't landing them for immediately after graduation. I'd estimate at this point, no more than 20-30% of federal clerkship positions are inhabited by people straight out of law school (in addition to judges who want work experience or hire far out, anyone who clerks twice, which has become increasingly common, will, in their second clerkship, be occupying a spot not going to someone straight from law school).

So don't think that because you don't have an interview for a 2020 clerkship three days into the plan that it's over. It really, truly isn't. It may be for a later year, and it may be for a judge who isn't going to start extending interviews until later this summer (or this fall, or even next spring). But it will happen for many, many more applicants than it's happening for in the first three days of the first week of hiring. Just be patient, and keep the faith. (And, if possible, ask whom your recommenders are willing to email or call - it really, truly, does move the needle more than anything else.)

[Lawl_Schoolz]

Anyone here about Judge Rao, Katsas, or others on the DC Cir?

Each has extended at least two interview invites.

Many judges on the DC Circuit have extended multiple offers, and students have been coming in all week. Harris (CA4 in Bethesda) has been doing the same thing.

Do you know if they're handling 2020 only or a mix of 2020 and 2021?