Harvard Grades 9th Circuit Forum

[Anonymous User]

Magna person who struck out on CADC here. My GPA was in the 4.0 range.

I wasn’t suggesting OP shouldn’t apply to the top, top feeder judges – it is definitely worth the application. You just have to be strategic about where you get your recommenders to focus their efforts. OP has every chance in the world at a great COA clerkship in a desirable location – once you get into D.C. Cir. territory, though, it is difficult to say anyone has a good chance without truly spectacular grades.

I think the advice already given is spot on. Apply very narrowly at first, get your professors to call, and then if it isn’t going well gradually send more applications. In all likelihood, there will be plenty of good COA judges who won't hire until the feeder judges are largely finished. Or, if you are dead set on a feeder clerkship, you can apply to highly regarded district court judges and give yourself another year to bolster your application.

[Anonymous User]

Idiosyncratic and possibly stupid question: what are my chances with grades on the higher end of cum laude (3.85ish - 3 DS, 7 P, rest H), a district court clerkship within the 9th circuit, and between 1-2 years at a firm? Not planning on targeting the feeders but would consider applying to Ikuta and judges with similar selectivity if it's not a total pipe dream.

[Anonymous User]

Idiosyncratic and possibly stupid question: what are my chances with grades on the higher end of cum laude (3.85ish - 3 DS, 7 P, rest H), a district court clerkship within the 9th circuit, and between 1-2 years at a firm? Not planning on targeting the feeders but would consider applying to Ikuta and judges with similar selectivity if it's not a total pipe dream.

3.85 after 1L? You're very competitive for a district court clerkship within the 9th Circuit's geographic area. You should be competitive for the non-feeder 9th Circuit judges. As always, apply broadly.

[Anonymous User]

I think a useful exercise for anyone wondering if they're competitive is to match up the latin honors list against the clerkship list. You will see that many people got great clerkships and graduated cum laude, or even without latin honors. As an aside, same thing goes with applying to firms.

You'll see that HLS has strong placement power.

[Anonymous User]

Idiosyncratic and possibly stupid question: what are my chances with grades on the higher end of cum laude (3.85ish - 3 DS, 7 P, rest H), a district court clerkship within the 9th circuit, and between 1-2 years at a firm? Not planning on targeting the feeders but would consider applying to Ikuta and judges with similar selectivity if it's not a total pipe dream.

3.85 after 1L? You're very competitive for a district court clerkship within the 9th Circuit's geographic area. You should be competitive for the non-feeder 9th Circuit judges. As always, apply broadly.

I'm an alum (c/o 2013) and already have a district court clerkship. My 1L GPA was significantly lower (it was on the low end of the cum laude range; my 2L and 3L GPA would have put me well into magna territory). I would be targeting COA judges for 2016.

[Doorkeeper]

Idiosyncratic and possibly stupid question: what are my chances with grades on the higher end of cum laude (3.85ish - 3 DS, 7 P, rest H), a district court clerkship within the 9th circuit, and between 1-2 years at a firm? Not planning on targeting the feeders but would consider applying to Ikuta and judges with similar selectivity if it's not a total pipe dream.

3.85 after 1L? You're very competitive for a district court clerkship within the 9th Circuit's geographic area. You should be competitive for the non-feeder 9th Circuit judges. As always, apply broadly.

I'm an alum (c/o 2013) and already have a district court clerkship. My 1L GPA was significantly lower (it was on the low end of the cum laude range; my 2L and 3L GPA would have put me well into magna territory). I would be targeting COA judges for 2016.

You'll be competitive for most of the non-feeders. Fletcher, Reinhardt and Kozinski are the only ones that I would say are probably out of your reach (unless one of your professors has a connection). Not sure about Watford, but I'd apply anyway. O'Scannlain is in play if you have conservative bona fides. Make sure that your recommenders stress that your improved 2L and 3L grades are what truly reflect you as a law student. Also make sure to work those firm and previous clerks of your d.ct judge (if they went on to clerk on the 9th after the d.ct) connections.

[Anonymous User]

Idiosyncratic and possibly stupid question: what are my chances with grades on the higher end of cum laude (3.85ish - 3 DS, 7 P, rest H), a district court clerkship within the 9th circuit, and between 1-2 years at a firm? Not planning on targeting the feeders but would consider applying to Ikuta and judges with similar selectivity if it's not a total pipe dream.

3.85 after 1L? You're very competitive for a district court clerkship within the 9th Circuit's geographic area. You should be competitive for the non-feeder 9th Circuit judges. As always, apply broadly.

I'm an alum (c/o 2013) and already have a district court clerkship. My 1L GPA was significantly lower (it was on the low end of the cum laude range; my 2L and 3L GPA would have put me well into magna territory). I would be targeting COA judges for 2016.

You'll be competitive for most of the non-feeders. Fletcher, Reinhardt and Kozinski are the only ones that I would say are probably out of your reach (unless one of your professors has a connection). Not sure about Watford, but I'd apply anyway. O'Scannlain is in play if you have conservative bona fides. Make sure that your recommenders stress that your improved 2L and 3L grades are what truly reflect you as a law student. Also make sure to work those firm and previous clerks of your d.ct judge (if they went on to clerk on the 9th after the d.ct) connections.

7 Ps is going to put you out of the running for the feeders.

[Anonymous User]

Through the rumor mill, I've heard that there are certain "rule-of-thumbs" for what judges look for in terms of grades. I'm wondering if there is any truth to any of them. For instance, I've heard several 3Ls say that "Garland only takes the Sears winner." How much truth is there to claims like that? And for that matter, what does it take to be a Sears winner?

[Anonymous User]

Through the rumor mill, I've heard that there are certain "rule-of-thumbs" for what judges look for in terms of grades. I'm wondering if there is any truth to any of them. For instance, I've heard several 3Ls say that "Garland only takes the Sears winner." How much truth is there to claims like that? And for that matter, what does it take to be a Sears winner?

5 most recently hired Garland clerks:

2015-16 Term: HLR President
2014-15 Term: 1L Sears Prize Winner (no law review); 1L Morgan Chu Prize winner (no law review)
2013-14 Term: 1L Sears Prize Winner + HLR
2012-13 Term: HLR President
2011-12 Term: HLR President

Can't remember anything beyond that.

[dm21998]

Garland took two HLS people for 2014-2015, both not on LR. Were they both 1L Sears Prize winners?

[Anonymous User]

Garland took two HLS people for 2014-2015, both not on LR. Were they both 1L Sears Prize winners?

The second person got the Morgan Chu prize, but not the Sears Prize:

MORGAN CHU PRIZE

Established by a gift from Mr. Morgan Chu ’76 and his wife, Helen W. Chu, the income to be awarded to the one student with the highest first year grades who is a member of the following student organizations: Asian Pacific American Law Students Association, Black Law Students Association, La Alianza, Native American Law Students Association, Chinese American Law Students Association, Korean Association of HLS, Middle East Law Students Association, Multiracial Law Students Association, or the South Asian Law Students Association.

[Anonymous User]

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

I think even this is aiming higher than target, at least with the grades OP posted (7 H, 2 DS, 1 P), which "barely" scrapes magna territory (a feat in itself, don't get me wrong). But a lot of these are the feeders of tomorrow, Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, and Kethledge especially - don't know much about Lynch yet but I can't see why he wouldn't belong in that category in a few years' time. These judges are probably going to be positioning themselves very carefully.

[Anonymous User]

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

I think even this is aiming higher than target, at least with the grades OP posted (7 H, 2 DS, 1 P), which "barely" scrapes magna territory (a feat in itself, don't get me wrong). But a lot of these are the feeders of tomorrow, Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, and Kethledge especially - don't know much about Lynch yet but I can't see why he wouldn't belong in that category in a few years' time. These judges are probably going to be positioning themselves very carefully.

Not so sure that I agree entirely with your analysis of the "feeders of tomorrow," but that's so speculative it's not worth arguing about.

[Anonymous User]

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

I think even this is aiming higher than target, at least with the grades OP posted (7 H, 2 DS, 1 P), which "barely" scrapes magna territory (a feat in itself, don't get me wrong). But a lot of these are the feeders of tomorrow, Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, and Kethledge especially - don't know much about Lynch yet but I can't see why he wouldn't belong in that category in a few years' time. These judges are probably going to be positioning themselves very carefully.

Maybe a little bit ambitious but with 7H, 2DS s/he will likely get COA interviews with normal judges just by applying, so it probably makes sense to push for judges like Ikuta or Livingston and see what happens. There's definitely a chance.

[Doorkeeper]

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

I think even this is aiming higher than target, at least with the grades OP posted (7 H, 2 DS, 1 P), which "barely" scrapes magna territory (a feat in itself, don't get me wrong). But a lot of these are the feeders of tomorrow, Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, and Kethledge especially - don't know much about Lynch yet but I can't see why he wouldn't belong in that category in a few years' time. These judges are probably going to be positioning themselves very carefully.

This is why we're using the term "competitive" and not the terms "strong", "lock", or "a shoe in".

Plus you fail to consider the weight of OP's recommenders.

I know we're all law students, but lets not over analyze this, people.

[Piero Sraffa]

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

I think even this is aiming higher than target, at least with the grades OP posted (7 H, 2 DS, 1 P), which "barely" scrapes magna territory (a feat in itself, don't get me wrong). But a lot of these are the feeders of tomorrow, Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, and Kethledge especially - don't know much about Lynch yet but I can't see why he wouldn't belong in that category in a few years' time. These judges are probably going to be positioning themselves very carefully.

Is the bolded true? We know that the DS-minus-P number for magna after 3L is ~0, and people say (erroneously?) that grades go up after 1L. Since the distribution won't be that smooth with only 10 grades recorded, it seems like having one more DS than P might put you a few points inside the top 10%. In any case, how many more DSs than Ps do y'all think are needed for top 5% (which the SCOTUS clerk called the "upper tier" of candidates) after 1L?

[Anonymous User]

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

I think even this is aiming higher than target, at least with the grades OP posted (7 H, 2 DS, 1 P), which "barely" scrapes magna territory (a feat in itself, don't get me wrong). But a lot of these are the feeders of tomorrow, Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, and Kethledge especially - don't know much about Lynch yet but I can't see why he wouldn't belong in that category in a few years' time. These judges are probably going to be positioning themselves very carefully.

Is the bolded true? We know that the DS-minus-P number for magna after 3L is ~0, and people say (erroneously?) that grades go up after 1L. Since the distribution won't be that smooth with only 10 grades recorded, it seems like having one more DS than P might put you a few points inside the top 10%. In any case, how many more DSs than Ps do y'all think are needed for top 5% (which the SCOTUS clerk called the "upper tier" of candidates) after 1L?

Nobody knows for sure. Post your grades and we can try and guess. Note, though, that top 5% would be after 3L and obviously a lot can go wrong between 1L and the end of 3L.

[Anonymous User]

For sure, I was just thinking that the "top 5%" category might be meaningful to feeder judges as well, even though it doesn't tell them as much after only one year of grades.

I had 3DS/1P. I got really lucky with my recommendation situation, so I'm mostly wondering if those grades are gonna be an obstacle anywhere (as it looks like they would for Garland). Many thanks to the folks putting up with the gunnery in this thread.

[Anonymous User]

repeat of one of the earlier posts - what kinds of grades typically win sears?

[Anonymous User]

repeat of one of the earlier posts - what kinds of grades typically win sears?

Can only speak for what I heard this year: 7DS 3H, although this was apparently a tie for the "record" since the new grading system. I heard from what I would characterize as a reliable source.

[Anonymous User]

Wow that's incredibly, incredibly impressive. Do they announce the Sears winner, or do they just inform the winners and word spreads? When does this happen? Really curious who the ones will be for this year's class.

[Anonymous User]

For sure, I was just thinking that the "top 5%" category might be meaningful to feeder judges as well, even though it doesn't tell them as much after only one year of grades.

I had 3DS/1P. I got really lucky with my recommendation situation, so I'm mostly wondering if those grades are gonna be an obstacle anywhere (as it looks like they would for Garland). Many thanks to the folks putting up with the gunnery in this thread.

I don't think it's an "obstacle." But you would serve yourself well by picking up some more DS's fall semester of 2L. If you do that and avoid any Ps - let's say you have 5 DS, 1P, rest H - then you're in pretty good shape almost anywhere. Some judges will care more about recs, but that kind of thing is harder to control/predict than grades.

And of course nothing is scientific. You'll notice that anytime someone tries to toss out numbers in this thread, or suggest specific judges, that sort of thing, people will swoop in with disclaimers. There's a reason for that. It's just downright hard to predict.

[Anonymous User]

My suspicion is that 3 DS and 1 P will not disqualify you from more than a handful of super-feeders. It is important to avoid more Ps to the extent you can do so, but as it stands you are in great shape.

[Anonymous User]

My suspicion is that 3 DS and 1 P will not disqualify you from more than a handful of super-feeders. It is important to avoid more Ps to the extent you can do so, but as it stands you are in great shape.

Your suspicion sounds suspiciously accurate to me.

[Anonymous User]

Re: the post earlier, when does stuff like Sears/Chu come out for the 1L class? Do the winners already know? Asking for a friend who is quite possibly in the running.