Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have recent insights on EDNY judges (specifically Amon, Brodie, Chen, Cogan, Kovner, Kuntz, Mauskopf)? What it's like to clerk for them, how competitive hiring is, etc. Also who the most competitive EDNY judges are?

When I spoke to recent Brodie clerks they said they work long hours (not uncommon to have 12 hour days, weekend work).

Seconding this. A word that came to mind from clerks I spoke to; "perfectionist". An associate of the NY V10 I summered at (who was clerking in EDNY for another judge) said she worked people as much/more than the firm.

That said, the clerks seemed to find it a worthwhile experience, just be prepared for the hours.

Does anyone have more to say about Brodie? I'm at a T6 but no one at my school has clerked for her in the past two years, so have no one to speak with.

You can reach out to former law clerks who didn't go to your law school.

Brodie works her clerks really, really hard. Like 10-14 hours/day in chambers hard.

[Wild Card]

Brodie works her clerks really, really hard. Like 10-14 hours/day in chambers hard.

What is the point of you repeating what has already been said?

Are you an interviewee hoping that other finalists drop out or pick other judges, so that you have a better chance at landing the gig?

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

I'm more curious why a career government attorney like MKB would have such an attitude.

[Anonymous User]

Brodie works her clerks really, really hard. Like 10-14 hours/day in chambers hard.

What is the point of you repeating what has already been said?

Are you an interviewee hoping that other finalists drop out or pick other judges, so that you have a better chance at landing the gig?

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

I'm more curious why a career government attorney like MKB would have such an attitude.

Not the OP, but have some insight on this. It's notable that she works her clerks much harder than other judges in EDNY. Just because associates in Big Law work really long hours doesn't mean it's not worth noting that Brodie is known for working her clerks much longer than other judges. This isn't to say she's a bad judge, but I think it's good intel for those thinking about working for her. That said, yes it's already been posted, so not really worth repeating.

[Anonymous User]

I'm more curious why a career government attorney like MKB would have such an attitude.

She encourages her clerks to work in the private sector for a while even if they want to do PI/govt. So maybe to prepare them for that?

[Chokenhauer]

Anyone heard anything about Judge Olguin in terms of work style, personality, and interview style?

Works his clerks hard, some weekend work is expected, but otherwise a good boss. And honestly, any active judge on the CDCal is gonna be real busy until some new judges get appointed...

Out of curiosity, what do you think the chances are that the Senate gets the rest of these appointees confirmed before the end of the year?

All appellate judges are filled so our clerkship office said to expect a good number of confirmations. The Senate goes back in session Friday and there are quite a few judges who have made it through committee who could be confirmed soon.

Thanks, that makes sense. I wish I had a competent clerkship office that informed me about this situation. I also imagine that the Senate will keep chugging along with the district judges to try and catch up to Carter’s record.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

Why would nobody care? There are plenty of posts in this thread and elsewhere about clerk hours v. salary, and not everyone is interested in BL short- or long-term. I for one would actively avoid any judge that demands 10-14 hours per day.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

Why would nobody care? There are plenty of posts in this thread and elsewhere about clerk hours v. salary, and not everyone is interested in BL short- or long-term. I for one would actively avoid any judge that demands 10-14 hours per day.

Uhhh people certainly care. Especially if it’s out of step with the norm for that district/circuit. Why wouldn’t people care that one judge will be a much harder clerkship hours wise than a comparable one in the same district/circuit?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

Why would nobody care? There are plenty of posts in this thread and elsewhere about clerk hours v. salary, and not everyone is interested in BL short- or long-term. I for one would actively avoid any judge that demands 10-14 hours per day.

Uhhh people certainly care. Especially if it’s out of step with the norm for that district/circuit. Why wouldn’t people care that one judge will be a much harder clerkship hours wise than a comparable one in the same district/circuit?

Anon you are responding to. Are you just agreeing with me? It seems like we are saying the same thing.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

Why would nobody care? There are plenty of posts in this thread and elsewhere about clerk hours v. salary, and not everyone is interested in BL short- or long-term. I for one would actively avoid any judge that demands 10-14 hours per day.

Uhhh people certainly care. Especially if it’s out of step with the norm for that district/circuit. Why wouldn’t people care that one judge will be a much harder clerkship hours wise than a comparable one in the same district/circuit?

Anon you are responding to. Are you just agreeing with me? It seems like we are saying the same thing.

Yes I was agreeing with you!

[Anonymous User]

How is Bianco (CA2)? How conservative are we talking?

[Anonymous User]

I'm more curious why a career government attorney like MKB would have such an attitude.

She encourages her clerks to work in the private sector for a while even if they want to do PI/govt. So maybe to prepare them for that?

It has nothing to do with things like that. It's the sheer volume of work in EDNY. I don't think a lot of law students understand how busy these districts out. When you're responsible for 100-150 decisions going out the door in a calendar year, trials, sentencings, hearings, that's the hours that are required to try and give everything just attention. Most chambers for active judges in EDNY work a lot (and the differences probably have more to do with which chambers work in the office as opposed to from home). Some judges try to reduce the number of hours by deciding things from the bench (especially summary judgment denials), or messing with their 6-month lists in some way.

Any significant difference in hours between active judges in the same district has more to do with their attitude with the 6-month lists. If your active judge doesn't care about being on the list, you will work less. If your judge does care like most judges, you will work a lot.

[mjb447]

I'm more curious why a career government attorney like MKB would have such an attitude.

She encourages her clerks to work in the private sector for a while even if they want to do PI/govt. So maybe to prepare them for that?

It has nothing to do with things like that. It's the sheer volume of work in EDNY. I don't think a lot of law students understand how busy these districts out. When you're responsible for 100-150 decisions going out the door in a calendar year, trials, sentencings, hearings, that's the hours that are required to try and give everything just attention. Most chambers for active judges in EDNY work a lot (and the differences probably have more to do with which chambers work in the office as opposed to from home). Some judges try to reduce the number of hours by deciding things from the bench (especially summary judgment denials), or messing with their 6-month lists in some way.

Any significant difference in hours between active judges in the same district has more to do with their attitude with the 6-month lists. If your active judge doesn't care about being on the list, you will work less. If your judge does care like most judges, you will work a lot.

Yeah, a few of the MKB-related takes ITT have been based on some weird assumptions.

(1) If you have the choice to work either Biglaw hours or something much closer to 9-to-5 to get a virtually identical resume line, people are obviously going to take that into account.

(2) Lots of people go into government work seeking better work-life balance, but government positions (especially USAO in a major city) also attract plenty of really intense people who put in biglaw hours, whether for career advancement or for dedication to the work or some combination of the two. Being a "career government attorney" doesn't say much about a lawyer's attitude toward the work, and I could see that being doubly true for the outliers who become federal judges.

(3) It would be very, very unusual for a judge to structure such a fundamental part of the workflow in chambers principally around preparing clerks for what comes next. It's almost certainly much more a function of the workload coupled with her own drafting and management styles.

[Anonymous User]

How is Bianco (CA2)? How conservative are we talking?

Bianco is definitely an originalist, Scalia-style. He is also active in FedSoc; his nomination was unsurprisingly not supported by Gillibrand or Schumer, in case that matters to you. He has a pretty interesting and solid history as an AUSA and has prosecuted organized crime/terrorism cases. It seems that probably has had some effect on his jurisprudence judging by speeches/cases.

I have interacted with him in different settings. He is intelligent, personable, and polite (although he has little patience for stupidity among advocates). He also sets up speaker programs for interns/clerks during the summer. Not sure whether if/how all of that translates to chambers.

[Anonymous User]

How is Bianco (CA2)? How conservative are we talking?

Bianco is definitely an originalist, Scalia-style. He is also active in FedSoc; his nomination was unsurprisingly not supported by Gillibrand or Schumer, in case that matters to you. He has a pretty interesting and solid history as an AUSA and has prosecuted organized crime/terrorism cases. It seems that probably has had some effect on his jurisprudence judging by speeches/cases.

I have interacted with him in different settings. He is intelligent, personable, and polite (although he has little patience for stupidity among advocates). He also sets up speaker programs for interns/clerks during the summer. Not sure whether if/how all of that translates to chambers.

Second all of this. Classic law-and-order conservative, likes textualism and originalism, though has definitely hired at least one non-conservative clerk since getting elevated. Really intelligent, but not an "academic" sort; gives off "no bullshit" SDNY alum vibes, if you know the type. Personally a notably pleasant and good-humored guy, easy to talk to and very involved in his community. (All based on interactions with him and his clerks.)

[Anonymous User]

Is Bianco off plan? What about Nardini?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anybody cares about working hard. As a biglaw associate, one works that much every day anyway.

Some clerks work longer hours than typical biglaw associates. More importantly, law students NEED to care. It's easy to tell yourself that you can make it through a clerkship/few years of biglaw while you're still in school. After all, law school is notoriously difficult, and you've gotten this far, so you'll be able to at least tough out a few years of "working hard." But the stress of law school is nothing compared to these positions. Even if you feel fulfilled by your work, even if you have a great boss, the hours will seriously damage your physical and mental health, unless you're one of those people who can indefinitely run on four hours of sleep per night. Burnout can happen very, very fast.

[Wild Card]

I'm more curious why a career government attorney like MKB would have such an attitude.

She encourages her clerks to work in the private sector for a while even if they want to do PI/govt. So maybe to prepare them for that?

It has nothing to do with things like that. It's the sheer volume of work in EDNY.

. . .

If your active judge doesn't care about being on the list, you will work less. If your judge does care like most judges, you will work a lot.

. . .

(1) If you have the choice to work either Biglaw hours or something much closer to 9-to-5 to get a virtually identical resume line, people are obviously going to take that into account.
. . . .

I shouldn't have been flippant. What I meant was that 9-to-5, M-to-F, is a lie, because there is indeed so much work to be done and because in all likelihood your judge does care about staying off the six-month list.

I suppose the difference, then, would be between working from 9AM to 8PM and working from 9AM to 10PM. I concede that the latter would quickly become brutal if one also had to work every weekend.

[galba]

@ Wild Card: Have you clerked? Not asking you to out yourself, not asking what judge or court, just a simple yes or no.

From your posting history, seems like the answer is no. You post pretty often in these threads, and I think this information would be useful for others as they decide how much to credit your (often very confidently-expressed) views.

[Anonymous User]

If EDNY clerks are, indeed, regularly working around the clock, or whatever people are claiming, then more of y'all should clerk back home in Florida or Illinois or wherever you grew up/went to college/whatever. I clerked for a district court and then COA in a big Texas city. Both were usually 9-5 gigs, with the exception of a few very busy weeks (trial, etc.). If you are efficient and plan ahead, you can mostly avoid six month list fires (assuming the clerk before you wasn't way behind, which would make for a busy start to your clerkship). And COA gigs are more laid back, so it's pretty easy to get your work done on a 9-5 schedule (with the exception of the few times you have en banc and a panel sitting in the same month).

I'm guessing that some of the "everyone in that district works SO MUCH" is an exaggeration. If it's not, though, then there are places in major metropolitan areas outside of New York where you can do interesting work for nice judges and have very chill hours.

[Anonymous User]

Is Bianco off plan? What about Nardini?

Both of them are on plan but neither are hiring until at least the fall.

[Anonymous User]

If EDNY clerks are, indeed, regularly working around the clock, or whatever people are claiming, then more of y'all should clerk back home in Florida or Illinois or wherever you grew up/went to college/whatever. I clerked for a district court and then COA in a big Texas city. Both were usually 9-5 gigs, with the exception of a few very busy weeks (trial, etc.). If you are efficient and plan ahead, you can mostly avoid six month list fires (assuming the clerk before you wasn't way behind, which would make for a busy start to your clerkship). And COA gigs are more laid back, so it's pretty easy to get your work done on a 9-5 schedule (with the exception of the few times you have en banc and a panel sitting in the same month).

I'm guessing that some of the "everyone in that district works SO MUCH" is an exaggeration. If it's not, though, then there are places in major metropolitan areas outside of New York where you can do interesting work for nice judges and have very chill hours.

It is absolutely false that all non-senior EDNY judges force their clerks to work the same number of hours and that should not be credited. Judge Brodie is know to be particularly demanding. There are similar differences in SDNY that should not be ignored.

[mjb447]

If EDNY clerks are, indeed, regularly working around the clock, or whatever people are claiming, then more of y'all should clerk back home in Florida or Illinois or wherever you grew up/went to college/whatever. I clerked for a district court and then COA in a big Texas city. Both were usually 9-5 gigs, with the exception of a few very busy weeks (trial, etc.). If you are efficient and plan ahead, you can mostly avoid six month list fires (assuming the clerk before you wasn't way behind, which would make for a busy start to your clerkship). And COA gigs are more laid back, so it's pretty easy to get your work done on a 9-5 schedule (with the exception of the few times you have en banc and a panel sitting in the same month).

I'm guessing that some of the "everyone in that district works SO MUCH" is an exaggeration. If it's not, though, then there are places in major metropolitan areas outside of New York where you can do interesting work for nice judges and have very chill hours.

It is absolutely false that all non-senior EDNY judges force their clerks to work the same number of hours and that should not be credited. Judge Brodie is know to be particularly demanding. There are similar differences in SDNY that should not be ignored.

My COA clerkship was in one of the less-busy circuits, but several of the judges in the circuit were known for requiring their clerks to maintain near-Biglaw hours because it was consistent with their personality and management style and the workload as they conceived of it. If, e.g., you're a judge who wants a complete bench memo drafted in chambers on every case, and you're going to go back and forth with a clerk a dozen times on each draft opinion, and you want your clerks around to answer questions whenever you're likely to work and you yourself keep Biglaw hours, you're going to require more hours of your clerks. At the district level, some judges do oral argument on far more of their motions, hold more status conferences, require detailed scripts for pleas and colloquies, or just draft in much more detail than others. Substantial uniformity within a district or circuit, especially one with as many judges as EDNY, would surprise me much more than variance.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. I clerked in a “flyover” district and unless we were in trial or I’d really got in the weeds, it was 9-5 (well, 8:30 to 5) and the career clerk hustled everyone out the door at 5. Another judge in that courthouse held hearings on every motion, wrote lengthy orders on everything, and handled all the discovery in his cases (usually the magistrates did that), and his clerks were there till 7 every weekday and worked Saturdays.

I acknowledge some districts have way heavier caseloads than others, but they also generally have more judges. The caseload matters, but more important is how the judge handles the caseload and their expectations. As for why a judge might work clerks hard - you think you get to be a federal judge in SDNY or EDNY without working your ass off, even if you “only” work for the government? For some people it’s the only way they know how to do things.

[Anonymous User]

If EDNY clerks are, indeed, regularly working around the clock, or whatever people are claiming, then more of y'all should clerk back home in Florida or Illinois or wherever you grew up/went to college/whatever. I clerked for a district court and then COA in a big Texas city. Both were usually 9-5 gigs, with the exception of a few very busy weeks (trial, etc.). If you are efficient and plan ahead, you can mostly avoid six month list fires (assuming the clerk before you wasn't way behind, which would make for a busy start to your clerkship). And COA gigs are more laid back, so it's pretty easy to get your work done on a 9-5 schedule (with the exception of the few times you have en banc and a panel sitting in the same month).

I'm guessing that some of the "everyone in that district works SO MUCH" is an exaggeration. If it's not, though, then there are places in major metropolitan areas outside of New York where you can do interesting work for nice judges and have very chill hours.

It is absolutely false that all non-senior EDNY judges force their clerks to work the same number of hours and that should not be credited. Judge Brodie is know to be particularly demanding. There are similar differences in SDNY that should not be ignored.

I'm not sure if this person is directing their last comment towards my point above about how a lot of the difference is based on how much your judge cares about the list (which I note again I made the distinction). And as I pointed out above, much of the difference in hours is based on who are expected to work in chambers and those who are not. And again as I pointed out, some judges manipulate their lists to do less.

If this was directed at me, former EDNY clerk (may or may not have been a clerk in the chambers at issue). You can decide on that issue yourself.

[imonaroll]

@ Wild Card: Have you clerked? Not asking you to out yourself, not asking what judge or court, just a simple yes or no.

From your posting history, seems like the answer is no. You post pretty often in these threads, and I think this information would be useful for others as they decide how much to credit your (often very confidently-expressed) views.

Also no response the last time this was asked. I think that's your answer.