Movement Today Forum

[Anonymous User]

N.D. Cal movement.

[HillandHollow]

Just adding to this (I'm a CA9 anon from the first page): when your judge sets pretty clear hiring criteria, it's easy to triage through a large number of applications. We're looking for particular GPA's/class ranks at T14's and near-T14's, a good H:P ratio and awards in key classes at YHS, and essentially people who are #1 or #2 in their class at other schools. It doesn't take 4 clerks that long to cull the herd down to those applications and get those in front of the judge so the judge can decide who to call.

Thanks! For schools that are not HYS (but still T-14) and don't give out class rank or GPA, do you calculate a GPA or just spot check (I know it varies by chambers probably).

Edit: Comment directly above this hits uncomfortably close to home.

We did not calculate GPA for those schools, because that would take too long, frankly. Instead, we just sort of kept an eye on all the applicants from a given school to see how the grades tended to look, and whether one person had any academic awards that indicated percentiles, then how they did in their classes (so if a bunch of people applied from like Georgetown, we can get a sense of how common a B is vs a B+, maybe).

It was easier to draw a line regarding schools/grades for the 2Ls, because 2Ls don't really have any experience yet. All they have is school, and usually some RA positions and an externship with a judge somewhere.

Very loosely, our cutoff for school rank:student rank for purposes of the first pass ended up being something like:
YSHCCN: we open/read all apps
8-14: above median
15-25: top 25%
26-50: top 10-15%
50 on down: literally the top 5 students

This was not discussed and decided on, but it appears to be how roughly we all looked at the apps. This scale did not apply at all to the non-2Ls, from what I can divine. Also, this is just how we decided which 2L apps to *read,* not invite for an interview. That's a whole nother level of consideration that will include experience and strength of recommendation and all that.

[Anonymous User]

Are a significant amount of judges waiting until today to move? I got fewer calls than expected and want to know if I should hold out hope.

First-hand and anecdotal evidence suggests that most calls went out yesterday with interviews scheduled starting at the end of the week and into the next. There could be a straggler or two, but significant movement already happened.

WOW! So y'all sorted through hundreds of applications (well, looked at the T14 kids), read the recs of the top students, and made calls? Did having a paper app or an OSCAR app (or both) make a difference? Seems like you wouldn't be able to even open up all the paper apps in a single day.

Just adding to this (I'm a CA9 anon from the first page): when your judge sets pretty clear hiring criteria, it's easy to triage through a large number of applications. We're looking for particular GPA's/class ranks at T14's and near-T14's, a good H:P ratio and awards in key classes at YHS, and essentially people who are #1 or #2 in their class at other schools. It doesn't take 4 clerks that long to cull the herd down to those applications and get those in front of the judge so the judge can decide who to call.

Thanks! For schools that are not HYS (but still T-14) and don't give out class rank or GPA, do you calculate a GPA or just spot check (I know it varies by chambers probably).

Edit: Comment directly above this hits uncomfortably close to home.

Hey! Yes, we break out the calculators and do the math.

[On the off chance the dean of either Penn or Chicago is reading this thread...I understand the sentiment of wanting your students to be evaluated holistically, but in a world where GPA is a practical tool that 95% of schools employ, it is really obnoxious to provide the raw data but refuse to let your computers do the math. We're going to calculate your students' GPA and use that data point the same way we use it from every other school, and we're going to grumble while we do it.]

And yes, I can totally relate to the above comment too. Having been on both ends now, it is such a frustratingly arbitrary process. So many applicants just have outstanding resumes and transcripts, and it can be quasi-random little things outside the applicant's control (working at a firm where the judge can call a trusted former clerk, a particular anecdote from a rec letter that stood out, a high grade in the subject the judge used to teach, etc.) that can make a judge say "Yeah, let's call this 3.85 from NYU before that 3.85 from Penn." To all the applicants reading this, just apply as broadly as you can and keep your fingers crossed--it'll eventually come together.

[Anonymous User]

I’d also add that if you are a law school student and feel shortchanged by the dynamics of the new hiring plan after the dust settles, talk to your CSO, dean, etc. and register your complaint. Could be wrong but I thought the plan was still in a pilot phase and law schools issued statements in response to it being brought back. Enough judges/judicial council hear the complaints from deans they might tweak it or do away with it again. But dissatisfaction with the plan won’t be raised unless enough schools speak up. I do believe this plan, like the old one, unfairly enhances candidates with inside connections to judges via professors, etc. who can circumvent the common release date and reinforces a trend towards alumni hiring that law schools really downplay with their candidates.

I’ll try to be fair and will admit that the exploding offer prohibition is a good one. That dynamic was an awful one. But I’m sure there are other ways to keep that prohibition in force.

[Anonymous User]

Jeez this thread has me shook. Submitted like 75 district court apps yesterday to judges across the country and haven't heard a peep. I had no idea that judges would be making decions so quickly. Do people really think that if you don't hear back this week then your shit out of luck for a 2020 clerkship? With a 4.0 at a T25, law review, moot court, a handful of CALIs, lots of government experience, I thought I would be competitive to land at least 1 interview. Damn that would be depressing if after spending all that time on these apps, I couldn't even get a sniff, just having all my apps immeaditley trashed cause I don't go to Harvard or Yale. Haha oh well, mostly just venting at this point. Haven't asked my reccomenders to make calls yet, so guess I will do that tonight and hope for the best. Y'all really know how to freak a guy out

[Anonymous User]

Jeez this thread has me shook. Submitted like 75 district court apps yesterday to judges across the country and haven't heard a peep. I had no idea that judges would be making decions so quickly. Do people really think that if you don't hear back this week then your shit out of luck for a 2020 clerkship? With a 4.0 at a T25, law review, moot court, a handful of CALIs, lots of government experience, I thought I would be competitive to land at least 1 interview. Damn that would be depressing if after spending all that time on these apps, I couldn't even get a sniff, just having all my apps immeaditley trashed cause I don't go to Harvard or Yale. Haha oh well, mostly just venting at this point. Haven't asked my reccomenders to make calls yet, so guess I will do that tonight and hope for the best. Y'all really know how to freak a guy out

Not at all. With those numbers you would at a minimum have my non-feeding 2/9 judge closely reading all of your materials. And I imagine things will shake out in waves. There was a scramble yesterday for judges to get calls in to the “shiniest objects” in hopes of interviewing and hiring them before other judges have their act together, but my judge already has picked out a second flight of candidates s/he’s interested in moving forward on if the “shiny objects” pick other judges. The Plan hasn’t changed the number of competitive candidates, just the timing of their applications, so if your numbers were good enough to get a clerkship in past years you should still be competitive this year.

[Wild Card]

Very loosely, our cutoff for school rank:student rank for purposes of the first pass ended up being something like:
YSHCCN: we open/read all apps
8-14: above median
15-25: top 25%
26-50: top 10-15%
50 on down: literally the top 5 students

Well, this is comforting. I might never get an interview with your judge, but I appreciate you taking the time to read my materials.

[Anonymous User]

Movement on the 6th and 11th Circuits.

My takeaway is: the big feeders moved the first day, and the rest of the judges are taking their time.

[Anonymous User]

Movement on the 6th and 11th Circuits.

My takeaway is: the big feeders moved the first day, and the rest of the judges are taking their time.

I agree with this (or at least I refuse to believe anything else because I'll go crazy haha). But it does seem to line up with the anecdotal evidence/information I've received from my CSO.

[93tarheel]

Movement on the 6th and 11th Circuits.

My takeaway is: the big feeders moved the first day, and the rest of the judges are taking their time.

Which judges on 6th and 11th if you don’t mind sharing?

[Anonymous User]

Movement in district courts in the southeast today.

[HillandHollow]

Came by to add that recommenders calling (or emailing) chambers DEFINITELY helped, even when we did not know the recommender already. At the very least, we read the whole applications of anyone who someone called about, even if they would not have made it through our generic first round cuts. I think at least one person who would have been cut on raw criteria (GPA/School, etc) is likely being extended an interview, largely because a recommender called and really went to bat, so we took a second look and decided to put them through.

Probably goes without saying, but if you have a recommender who has any ties to the chambers, THAT recommendation is even stronger. A professor I had, and really liked/respected, made a call for someone, and that was almost enough on its own to put that person through on my list.

So ask your strong recommenders to make calls.
Also, consider how strong any of your recommenders are likely to be. A letter that is just a paragraph long about how well the student did in the class but that's it is basically worthless, even if it's a flashy professor name (and honestly, if it's a famous professor, we are paying even more attention to it, so you really want it to be strong)

[Anonymous User]

Came by to add that recommenders calling (or emailing) chambers DEFINITELY helped, even when we did not know the recommender already. At the very least, we read the whole applications of anyone who someone called about, even if they would not have made it through our generic first round cuts. I think at least one person who would have been cut on raw criteria (GPA/School, etc) is likely being extended an interview, largely because a recommender called and really went to bat, so we took a second look and decided to put them through.

Probably goes without saying, but if you have a recommender who has any ties to the chambers, THAT recommendation is even stronger. A professor I had, and really liked/respected, made a call for someone, and that was almost enough on its own to put that person through on my list.

So ask your strong recommenders to make calls.
Also, consider how strong any of your recommenders are likely to be. A letter that is just a paragraph long about how well the student did in the class but that's it is basically worthless, even if it's a flashy professor name (and honestly, if it's a famous professor, we are paying even more attention to it, so you really want it to be strong)

Could you (1) give us a sense of which court you clerk in and (2) tell us whether you already extended all the invitations for interviews you expect to?

[HillandHollow]

Could you (1) give us a sense of which court you clerk in and (2) tell us whether you already extended all the invitations for interviews you expect to?

(1) I'll tell you that I am in a district court, in a secondary market/major city (to me, at least...I am not sure where the line is, but think cities like Atlanta, Houston, Detroit, Miami, maybe? not Chicago/NYC/DC)

(2) We have not technically extended any interviews yet. Our Judge is making the final decision this week, and we expect to make phone calls probably on Friday afternoon.

[timmyd]

Could you (1) give us a sense of which court you clerk in and (2) tell us whether you already extended all the invitations for interviews you expect to?

(1) I'll tell you that I am in a district court, in a secondary market/major city (to me, at least...I am not sure where the line is, but think cities like Atlanta, Houston, Detroit, Miami, maybe? not Chicago/NYC/DC)

(2) We have not technically extended any interviews yet. Our Judge is making the final decision this week, and we expect to make phone calls probably on Friday afternoon.

Curious as to how y’all are viewing alumni applicants, especially those with prior clerkship experience. I saw that you referenced a rough gpa chart roughly correlating with school tier earlier. You said it didn’t apply to non-2ls; how much, then, does gpa/school rank matter for experienced applicants? Or are you mostly looking at quality of experience? Also, for transfer students that have graduated already and did well at transfer school, is there any bias against them?

[HillandHollow]

Curious as to how y’all are viewing alumni applicants, especially those with prior clerkship experience. I saw that you referenced a rough gpa chart roughly correlating with school tier earlier. You said it didn’t apply to non-2ls; how much, then, does gpa/school rank matter for experienced applicants? Or are you mostly looking at quality of experience? Also, for transfer students that have graduated already and did well at transfer school, is there any bias against them?

Real experience is a huge plus factor for us, but it definitely needs to be relevant (if you spent the past year doing municipal bond transactional work or something, that doesn't help as much as being in any lit group), and more than just doc review.

It is harder to say what the school/gpa thing is for this group. On a quick review, a dozen or so non-2Ls from schools outside of the T14 made it into real consideration but didn't survive the final cut. They were mostly top 33% with excellent plus factors (a state clerkship, or a clear commitment to a kind of public interest work that our judge likes, for example). GPA and School still matter for the non-2Ls of course, but you can make up for a blah GPA by showing an ability to actually be a lawyer. Non-2Ls generally also have writing samples that are (1) from real litigation, and (2) WAY better than any of the 2L samples.

FWIW: At least two people from outside the T-14 are in contention for an interview (meaning they made it on to a list of 15 people that judge reviews and makes final interview offer decisions from). One is from a very low ranked school (I'm not sure, but I think it might be around 80-100 on the US News list). That person is around a top 10% GPA. The other is from a school that I'm pretty sure is around 20-30 on US News list, and has a median GPA. For both of these two, they had very compelling personal narratives, extremely strong recommender support, and some relevant experience.

ETA: Sorry, I missed your question about transfer students. Can you rephrase it? I am not sure what you're asking

[timmyd]

Curious as to how y’all are viewing alumni applicants, especially those with prior clerkship experience. I saw that you referenced a rough gpa chart roughly correlating with school tier earlier. You said it didn’t apply to non-2ls; how much, then, does gpa/school rank matter for experienced applicants? Or are you mostly looking at quality of experience? Also, for transfer students that have graduated already and did well at transfer school, is there any bias against them?

Real experience is a huge plus factor for us, but it definitely needs to be relevant (if you spent the past year doing municipal bond transactional work or something, that doesn't help as much as being in any lit group), and more than just doc review.

It is harder to say what the school/gpa thing is for this group. On a quick review, a dozen or so non-2Ls from schools outside of the T14 made it into real consideration but didn't survive the final cut. They were mostly top 33% with excellent plus factors (a state clerkship, or a clear commitment to a kind of public interest work that our judge likes, for example). GPA and School still matter for the non-2Ls of course, but you can make up for a blah GPA by showing an ability to actually be a lawyer. Non-2Ls generally also have writing samples that are (1) from real litigation, and (2) WAY better than any of the 2L samples.

FWIW: At least two people from outside the T-14 are in contention for an interview (meaning they made it on to a list of 15 people that judge reviews and makes final interview offer decisions from). One is from a very low ranked school (I'm not sure, but I think it might be around 80-100 on the US News list). That person is around a top 10% GPA. The other is from a school that I'm pretty sure is around 20-30 on US News list, and has a median GPA. For both of these two, they had very compelling personal narratives, extremely strong recommender support, and some relevant experience.

Thanks so much. Super helpful. Do you weigh prior federal district clerkships more heavily than other types? What about magistrate?

[HillandHollow]

Thanks so much. Super helpful. Do you weigh prior federal district clerkships more heavily than other types? What about magistrate?

Hm, I don't think we had that comparison this time around, but I think I would probably view them this way:
District Court > [This] State Supreme Court > Fed. Magistrate > Other State Supreme Courts > Other State Appellate Courts
(We would weight our own state supreme court highly, because our judge also has a preference for ties to this state).
ETA: This sort of assumes that you are doing a double district because you want to stay HERE. If that isn't the case, then a [This] State Supreme Court clerkship would probably be higher than a district court clerkship.

We didn't get any apps from Bankruptcy Court clerks or any other specialty court like that, so I don't really know how I would think of those.
Fwiw, we did get an applicant who is clerking on a non 2/9/DC Circuit right now, and they did not make it to the list of 15. So much of this is idiosyncratic.

Can you re-phrase your earlier question about transfers?

[Anonymous User]

Jeez this thread has me shook. Submitted like 75 district court apps yesterday to judges across the country and haven't heard a peep. I had no idea that judges would be making decions so quickly. Do people really think that if you don't hear back this week then your shit out of luck for a 2020 clerkship? With a 4.0 at a T25, law review, moot court, a handful of CALIs, lots of government experience, I thought I would be competitive to land at least 1 interview. Damn that would be depressing if after spending all that time on these apps, I couldn't even get a sniff, just having all my apps immeaditley trashed cause I don't go to Harvard or Yale. Haha oh well, mostly just venting at this point. Haven't asked my reccomenders to make calls yet, so guess I will do that tonight and hope for the best. Y'all really know how to freak a guy out

I'm in a similar boat. I applied to SDNY/DNJ/EDNY (for personal reasons, I cannot leave NYC), submitted a total of close to 60 apps, mixture of Oscar and paper, as a current associate in a litigation boutique, law review e-board, and top 5% from a T20. Not a peep. Was actually #1 at the end of 1L, grades dropped as I started to prioritize other things. I didn't have anybody make calls because my school is not an east coast school, and I had no personal connections.

It sucks that this game is so heavily dependent on calls and connections, but that's life, I guess.

[Anonymous User]

Jeez this thread has me shook. Submitted like 75 district court apps yesterday to judges across the country and haven't heard a peep. I had no idea that judges would be making decions so quickly. Do people really think that if you don't hear back this week then your shit out of luck for a 2020 clerkship? With a 4.0 at a T25, law review, moot court, a handful of CALIs, lots of government experience, I thought I would be competitive to land at least 1 interview. Damn that would be depressing if after spending all that time on these apps, I couldn't even get a sniff, just having all my apps immeaditley trashed cause I don't go to Harvard or Yale. Haha oh well, mostly just venting at this point. Haven't asked my reccomenders to make calls yet, so guess I will do that tonight and hope for the best. Y'all really know how to freak a guy out

I'm in a similar boat. I applied to SDNY/DNJ/EDNY (for personal reasons, I cannot leave NYC), submitted a total of close to 60 apps, mixture of Oscar and paper, as a current associate in a litigation boutique, law review e-board, and top 5% from a T20. Not a peep. Was actually #1 at the end of 1L, grades dropped as I started to prioritize other things. I didn't have anybody make calls because my school is not an east coast school, and I had no personal connections.

It sucks that this game is so heavily dependent on calls and connections, but that's life, I guess.

Calls/connections are important for feeders at the top circuits, but not necessarily for non-feeders at top circuits (CA2/9/DC). For my CA2/9/DC judge, eg., you didn't need someone making a call, but you did need top grades from HYSCCN. That last part can be key, unfortunately: top ~10% at HYS > literally *the* top ~10 students at a lower-end T20.

One of the things I've learned/seen firsthand, FWIW, is how important the decision can be to go to HYS even if it means paying more tuition on the front end, so that you can get doors opened on the back end without needing absolutely perfect grades. Some of the "common wisdom" on TLS -- ie, "go to a top-10 school if you get a lot of financial aid over HYS at sticker price because the opportunities are roughly the same if you can do well" -- is just totally false. Clerkship chances, and the boutique firms with absolutely ridiculous salaries they can lead to, are a big part of why that's so false.

[Anonymous User]

Any word on smaller district courts in out of the way places?

[nixy]

Re: clerkship chances - I still don’t think clerkship chances justify going to HYS over a lower ranked (but still excellent) T14 for free/a big discount. We’ve heard from a small number of people about how their judges hire. This is also the first year of the new Plan, and the culling so strictly by school is about rising 2Ls, not others who can apply on paper. There are still opportunities to clerk if you don’t go to HYS, especially if you do it later with some experience, and making connections isn’t limited to HYS. So I get why this process is immensely frustrating - and maybe if your goal is *only* 2/9/DC/SDNY/EDNY, the slight edge toward the path to success makes HYS worth it. But I think to say the advice about taking the money is “totally” false is to go too far in the other direction (especially when the choice is between HYS or Chicago with a Ruby or NYU/Columbia on scholarship, which we have seen people agonize over).

[Anonymous User]

Re: clerkship chances - I still don’t think clerkship chances justify going to HYS over a lower ranked (but still excellent) T14 for free/a big discount. We’ve heard from a small number of people about how their judges hire. This is also the first year of the new Plan, and the culling so strictly by school is about rising 2Ls, not others who can apply on paper. There are still opportunities to clerk if you don’t go to HYS, especially if you do it later with some experience, and making connections isn’t limited to HYS. So I get why this process is immensely frustrating - and maybe if your goal is *only* 2/9/DC/SDNY/EDNY, the slight edge toward the path to success makes HYS worth it. But I think to say the advice about taking the money is “totally” false is to go too far in the other direction (especially when the choice is between HYS or Chicago with a Ruby or NYU/Columbia on scholarship, which we have seen people agonize over).

The point might be more relevant for people choosing between T6/10 at or near sticker vs a T20 or so for free. I’m the T20 top 5% anon, actually ranked 10, and even though I applied in early May as an alumn and had LR e-board, I got nothing from SDNY/DNJ/EDNY. Granted, I had low UG grades, and that was the biggest weakness on my app, aside from not having connections, but I still thought I could get some interviews with my stats.

I like my job and it’s not the end of the world for me not to get a clerkship, but maybe I’d have been more successful if I transferred to CCN, idk. I didn’t apply because I had a full ride and why pay more when I’ve got firm interviews out the wazoo, plus at the time I didn’t give clerking much thought.

[Anonymous User]

Re: clerkship chances - I still don’t think clerkship chances justify going to HYS over a lower ranked (but still excellent) T14 for free/a big discount. We’ve heard from a small number of people about how their judges hire. This is also the first year of the new Plan, and the culling so strictly by school is about rising 2Ls, not others who can apply on paper. There are still opportunities to clerk if you don’t go to HYS, especially if you do it later with some experience, and making connections isn’t limited to HYS. So I get why this process is immensely frustrating - and maybe if your goal is *only* 2/9/DC/SDNY/EDNY, the slight edge toward the path to success makes HYS worth it. But I think to say the advice about taking the money is “totally” false is to go too far in the other direction (especially when the choice is between HYS or Chicago with a Ruby or NYU/Columbia on scholarship, which we have seen people agonize over).

The point might be more relevant for people choosing between T6/10 at or near sticker vs a T20 or so for free. I’m the T20 top 5% anon, actually ranked 10, and even though I applied in early May as an alumn and had LR e-board, I got nothing from SDNY/DNJ/EDNY. Granted, I had low UG grades, and that was the biggest weakness on my app, aside from not having connections, but I still thought I could get some interviews with my stats.

I like my job and it’s not the end of the world for me not to get a clerkship, but maybe I’d have been more successful if I transferred to CCN, idk. I didn’t apply because I had a full ride and why pay more when I’ve got firm interviews out the wazoo, plus at the time I didn’t give clerking much thought.

Without going too far off track, the above bolded/underlined is the real point. Going into law school, you just don't know (and why should you?!) what you might be interested in down the road, whether it's an A3 clerkship, a job at the UN, academia, etc. The value is in the optionality/cushion. But anyway, that was just a side comment, I'm sure there are whole threads on this as well.

[nixy]

To the T20 anon - I think that’s fair, but I also think that limiting your applications so severely has more to do with your outcome than your school (and I get that for personal reasons you don’t always have other options and that sucks, so I don’t mean that as a criticism). Not getting a SDNY/EDNY or even DNJ gig isn’t, I think, the same as not getting a clerkship, period. So yeah, if those are your only target clerkships, then T6-10 may be a better option than T20 (assuming you’d end up with the same stats at the T6-10), but it’s still pretty subjective, whether not clerking in one of those three districts is worse than going into your career without debt. Because in the end even from CCN etc you might get no clerkship AND have debt. Though again, I see how others might think it’s worth it (especially given the flexibility factor mentioned above).

Anyway I don’t mean to distract from reporting on what’s happening this year.