Harvard Grades 9th Circuit Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have any sense what grades are needed for non-feeders on 2/9?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have any sense what grades are needed for non-feeders on 2/9?

Would love to hear this as well.

[Anonymous User]

Depends a helluva lot on the judge and location. A 9th cir. judge sitting in Idaho (disclaimer: I have no idea what Judge R. Smith's hiring criteria are, he could be a complete nutso about grades for all I know) probably isn't going to have the same requirements as a non-feeder judge sitting in SF/LA. Same goes for a 2nd cir. judge sitting in, say, VT compared to a non-feeder in NY. I'd say for the most part that the grade requirements for non-feeder 2/9 in the popular cities (SF/LA/NY) are usually not far off from the feeder 2/9 judges in the same cities. Just judging by the people I have seen accepting clerkships for the non-feeder 2/9 judges in SF/LA/NY, they are usually the same people I expect could or would have gotten feeder judges in the same cities. Now before anyone goes and says Judge This actually cares about politics, or Judge That emphasizes work experience, yadda yadda, I'm just saying this is probably the general rule and of course there are exceptions. And given that some feeders (see, e.g., O'Scannlain) care about soft factors a lot, there are sure to be cases of non-feeders in popular 2/9 markets that have higher grade requirements than their feeder counterparts. As for the 2/9 non-feeders in non-SF/LA/NY markets (Oregon, Washington, New Hampshire, etc.) I have no idea. You'd probably have to do a judge by judge individualized kind of inquiry.

[Doorkeeper]

Anyone have any sense what grades are needed for non-feeders on 2/9?

Would love to hear this as well.

Looking at the HLS alums clerking this year, it looks like somewhere around cum laude to magna depending on the judge. (and that judge's location). There is a solid mix of both cum laudes and magnas clerking on 2 and 9. I think anything above cum laude makes you competitive, and the closer to magna you get then the better it will be for you.

[Anonymous User]

Since all the HLS gunners are ITT, can someone please explain to me why the top top feeders are not hiring HLR kids? For 2014, HLS landed five kids between Garland/Kavanaugh/Wilkinson and only ONE of the five is HLR. If you go down the line, more HLR kids show up but evenso there are about half HLR kids and half not.

[Anonymous User]

Since all the HLS gunners are ITT, can someone please explain to me why the top top feeders are not hiring HLR kids? For 2014, HLS landed five kids between Garland/Kavanaugh/Wilkinson and only ONE of the five is HLR. If you go down the line, more HLR kids show up but evenso there are about half HLR kids and half not.

Because clerkship hiring is highly idiosyncratic and relationship-driven, is the short version. Plenty of folks with very good grades don't make HLR (there's no pure grade-on) and the ones who do might just happen not to know the professors who can credibly call those judges. And these judges might well prefer high grades and a call from their preferred prof to HLR.

Also there's just the fact that any conclusions you're drawing from one years' placement into 12 job slots is going to be a little wacky.

[Doorkeeper]

Since all the HLS gunners are ITT, can someone please explain to me why the top top feeders are not hiring HLR kids? For 2014, HLS landed five kids between Garland/Kavanaugh/Wilkinson and only ONE of the five is HLR. If you go down the line, more HLR kids show up but evenso there are about half HLR kids and half not.

I love how you insult the people in this thread, and then proceed to ask a question for people to ask.

A few thoughts:

1) Many feeders require both top grades and a professor connection. Certain feeders (Wilkinson, Kavanaugh, etc) are very particular with the professors that they listen to - so basically you need to align someone with the top grades with a close connection to one of the few professors that they listen to. Notice how HLR doesn't really play into this at all. The death of the plan only increased the reliance of these judges on their "feeder" professors because they only had 2 semesters grades to go on.

2) For 2014, as previously mentioned, top grades do not necessary align with HLR membership. Most judges would rather hire a non-HLR student with amazing grades than a HLR student with less than amazing grades. Remember that only 14 people on HLR grade on, and so the other 30+ spots go to kids with grades that are all over the place.

[Anonymous User]

Since all the HLS gunners are ITT, can someone please explain to me why the top top feeders are not hiring HLR kids? For 2014, HLS landed five kids between Garland/Kavanaugh/Wilkinson and only ONE of the five is HLR. If you go down the line, more HLR kids show up but evenso there are about half HLR kids and half not.

I love how you insult the people in this thread, and then proceed to ask a question for people to ask.

A few thoughts:

1) Many feeders require both top grades and a professor connection. Certain feeders (Wilkinson, Kavanaugh, etc) are very particular with the professors that they listen to - so basically you need to align someone with the top grades with a close connection to one of the few professors that they listen to. Notice how HLR doesn't really play into this at all. The death of the plan only increased the reliance of these judges on their "feeder" professors because they only had 2 semesters grades to go on.

2) For 2014, as previously mentioned, top grades do not necessary align with HLR membership. Most judges would rather hire a non-HLR student with amazing grades than a HLR student with less than amazing grades. Remember that only 14 people on HLR grade on, and so the other 30+ spots go to kids with grades that are all over the place.[/quote]

Just to be totally clear here-- even those 14 didn't "grade on" in the traditional sense. They got onto HLR due to a combination of their grades and their competition score. There are lots of folks with stellar grades, including a Sears prize winner, who don't make HLR due to their competition scores.

[Anonymous User]

Just to be totally clear here-- even those 14 didn't "grade on" in the traditional sense. They got onto HLR due to a combination of their grades and their competition score. There are lots of folks with stellar grades, including a Sears prize winner, who don't make HLR due to their competition scores.

Yeah and it's not even that rare. The c/o 2010 summa cum laude grad wasn't on LR either.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know anything about Fletcher? When he hires, what he's looking for, and stuff like that? I know grades are important, obviously. If you read the HLS info, it sounds like he's only looking at applications from 3Ls and alumni, but I think he has hired 2Ls in the past, so I'm confused.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know anything about Fletcher? When he hires, what he's looking for, and stuff like that? I know grades are important, obviously. If you read the HLS info, it sounds like he's only looking at applications from 3Ls and alumni, but I think he has hired 2Ls in the past, so I'm confused.

He is very grade selective. He definitely hires 2Ls.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know anything about Fletcher? When he hires, what he's looking for, and stuff like that? I know grades are important, obviously. If you read the HLS info, it sounds like he's only looking at applications from 3Ls and alumni, but I think he has hired 2Ls in the past, so I'm confused.

He is very grade selective. He definitely hires 2Ls.

I'm not HLS, but I can confirm he is perhaps the most grade-selective judge in the 9th Cir. From Berkeley, where he teaches, in recent years he has taken only the #1 student in the class.

[Anonymous User]

Resurrecting this thread. If applying after 1L year, does 2DS 7H 1P have shot at any feeders (9th Cir. or otherwise) that begin hiring before 2L grades are out? Strong, well-known recommenders but no overt political connections (and obviously don't know about HLR yet). Just trying to feel out if the judges who hire early are looking exclusively for the people with approx. Sears Prize-level grades or if magna-ish has a shot.

[Doorkeeper]

Resurrecting this thread. If applying after 1L year, does 2DS 7H 1P have shot at any feeders (9th Cir. or otherwise) that begin hiring before 2L grades are out? Strong, well-known recommenders but no overt political connections (and obviously don't know about HLR yet). Just trying to feel out if the judges who hire early are looking exclusively for the people with approx. Sears Prize-level grades or if magna-ish has a shot.

Yes. You will be competitive for most, if not all, feeders.

[Anonymous User]

I will be frank and say that your application is competitive (but not strong) for many (but not all) feeders. D.C. Circuit is probably not going to happen, but it is always worth sending in the apps. Try for 2/9 instead. You may have more luck with 9; there are more judges and their criteria are more varied. If you want 2, you should try to get an S.D.N.Y. gig first to boost your app.

[Anonymous User]

I will be frank and say that your application is competitive (but not strong) for many (but not all) feeders. D.C. Circuit is probably not going to happen, but it is always worth sending in the apps. Try for 2/9 instead. You may have more luck with 9; there are more judges and their criteria are more varied. If you want 2, you should try to get an S.D.N.Y. gig first to boost your app.

This seems mostly accurate, but perhaps a little strong with respect to the D.C. Circuit. I think OP has a decent shot at the non-feeder D.C. Circuit judges. Some HLS people get them while graduating cum laude, and you are on track for magna cum laude, provided that you have other factors in your favor (law review, etc.). I know Williams has hired someone who graduated cum laude. Even Kavanaugh hired someone who graduated only cum laude and without law review. And there is at least one less grade-selective D.C. Circuit judge (Rogers) that I think cares more about other factors. IIRC someone from HLS who is clerking for her in the future graduated without latin honors.

Now, that's not to say that you're guaranteed a D.C. Circuit clerkship. And there are other feeder judges out there that would be more prestigious than a non-feeder D.C. Circuit judge. But my point is that it is not an easily predictive process and that "D.C. Circuit is probably not going to happen" is a bit overstated, in my opinion.

Edit: Also, the advice to "try for 2/9 instead" isn't great either, in my opinion. With your grades, you should be applying to the judge, not the circuit, if that makes sense. Target these judges rather than circuit necessarily (though you should, obviously, not take any of those judges as guaranteed and apply broadly).

[Anonymous User]

You should definitely apply but I wouldn’t hold my breath for CADC. I graduated magna, applied broadly to the D.C. Circuit, and got no interviews. It’s extremely tough, somewhat random, and highly dependent on professor connections.

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

[Doorkeeper]

Are we forgetting that multiple feeders took people during the fall of 2L that graduated cum laude? Yes, it's random and a mix of grades, professor connections, and the writing sample. And yes obviously "competitive" means "your application will be considered", not "you will be one of the top 5-10 applicants". But damn you're being quite harsh.

Edit - Not only Kavanaugh and Sutton, but someone from HLS got SCOTUS that was only cum laude. The takeaway is that grades are very important, but everything else in the application situation can make big differences. Just apply, try and get your profs to make calls and see what happens.

[Anonymous User]

Are we forgetting that multiple feeders took people during the fall of 2L that graduated cum laude? Yes, it's random and a mix of grades, professor connections, and the writing sample. And yes obviously "competitive" means "your application will be considered", not "you will be one of the top 5-10 applicants". But damn you're being quite harsh.

Agree with this. I forgot too that Sutton took a clerk that graduated cum laude.

[Anonymous User]

You should definitely apply but I wouldn’t hold my breath for CADC. I graduated magna, applied broadly to the D.C. Circuit, and got no interviews. It’s extremely tough, somewhat random, and highly dependent on professor connections.

Depending on recommenders and HLR results, you have a good shot at semi-feeders, but probably not ultra-competitive judges like Garland, Sutton, or Fletcher. You should be looking at judges like Watford, Ikuta, Livingston, Lynch, Kethledge. Watford in particular is known as an early mover.

You need to talk to your recommenders and try to feel out who they might be comfortable calling. With your grades, you will get a COA clerkship if you apply correctly but it’s really hard to predict how it will turn out.

How high in magna/what was your GPA? Just for curiosity's sake.

[Anonymous User]

OP here who posted grades. Thanks to everyone for weighing in.

With your grades, you should be applying to the judge, not the circuit, if that makes sense.

Makes sense in theory but not sure how to implement your advice based on how COA apps actually work. You're saying I have a good shot at some feeders/"semi-feeders," which is great, but shouldn't I apply to almost every judge on DC/2/9 plus a bunch of other judges because they're all such a longshot? In other words, how can I really target feeders without screwing myself over if I get no interviews (which seems fairly likely, given post about magna striking out across whole CADC).

[Doorkeeper]

OP here who posted grades. Thanks to everyone for weighing in.

With your grades, you should be applying to the judge, not the circuit, if that makes sense.

Makes sense in theory but not sure how to implement your advice based on how COA apps actually work. You're saying I have a good shot at some feeders/"semi-feeders," which is great, but shouldn't I apply to almost every judge on DC/2/9 plus a bunch of other judges because they're all such a longshot? In other words, how can I really target feeders without screwing myself over if I get no interviews (which seems fairly likely, given post about magna striking out across whole CADC).

1) Look at all the judges in DC, 2, 9 and feeders/semi-feeders that are outside 2/9 (Wikinson, Kethledge, Sutton, Posner, Wood, Gorsuch, Neimeyer, etc).
2) Evaluate the ones that you want to work for based upon the characteristics of those judges and your geographic preferences. Air on the side of being inclusive, but your list should entirely compose of judges/places that you would be happy to live and work in for a year.
3) Stagger your applications so that you apply to your "top" X amount of judges first.
4) Apply to those judges.

Keep in mind that not all feeders are going to magically start moving in September. They naturally tend to spread themselves out during the fall and into the next year.

[Anonymous User]

OP here who posted grades. Thanks to everyone for weighing in.

With your grades, you should be applying to the judge, not the circuit, if that makes sense.

Makes sense in theory but not sure how to implement your advice based on how COA apps actually work. You're saying I have a good shot at some feeders/"semi-feeders," which is great, but shouldn't I apply to almost every judge on DC/2/9 plus a bunch of other judges because they're all such a longshot? In other words, how can I really target feeders without screwing myself over if I get no interviews (which seems fairly likely, given post about magna striking out across whole CADC).

There are a couple ways you can target judges, off the top of my head. You could stagger your applications. It's still beyond early. Send in your applications to your top choices first, see if you get any bites. If not or it's taking too long, then send out another wave. And so on. Also, you could ask your recommender to call the judges that you are most interested in. That definitely helps you get your application pulled and to get an interview. Ask your recommender to call your target judges (you wouldn't want your recommender to call too many judges anyways).

[Anonymous User]

OP. Feel like a huge novice--exactly the type of advice I was looking for ITT. Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Feel like a huge novice--exactly the type of advice I was looking for ITT. Thanks.

Happy to help. Also consider posting in the Harvard Students Answering Questions thread too if you ever have any more questions.