Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on my competitiveness for COA down the road? I imagine it's a long shot, but looking for an honest handicap of my odds:

- 3L at a T50, Top 10%
- Starting a 2-year district court clerkship this fall (different region from school/home, not a major market)
- LR; Moot Court e-board, 2 interscholastic comps
- TA for Appellate Advocacy, RA for a Prof

Also think I might want to work BL first before going back for a second clerkship (should I get one). Would that help my chances?

For the vast majority of circuit judges, zilch without some strong hook. For random judges in flyover country, basically zilch without some strong hook.

Given the district court clerkship, I'm not as down on your chances as the above poster. Are there COA judges who sit in the same city as your district judge (and thus probably knows your judge)? That would probably be your best shot, as would any COA judges in the state where your school is/who have hired from your school before. Some judges (Griffin on CA6 comes to mind) only hire folks with previous clerkships, and that + being in a rural area tends to limit their pool to the point where you might be competitive.

Anon OP here. None in the same city as my judge, but some in the same district. Kind of figured the ones in my school's market would be my best bet. There is some track record of it but not much of it. A couple of judges in my school's area have hired from here, but it's in a very competitive circuit (2/9/DC). Just gotta work for it and see if the dice roll my way I suppose.

The downer Anon here. Having your DC judge call or email is the kind of strong hook that can improve your odds from zero to very unlikely.

Circuit judges in rural areas who hire from local schools still tend to hire valedictorians or EIC + top 5% types. Even those judges have enough top 10-20% T14 students applying to them such that hiring a top of class T50 student is an intentional move to improve school diversity.

Just describing how this process works, generally speaking.

[Anonymous User]

Should I read anything into a judge saying they’d get back to me in “10 days or so” after an interview? Makes me think it’s a no but didn’t know if this is a common practice if judges want to reach out to references etc

[lavarman84]

Guy everyone is responding too. I know that often we end up writing the whole thing with minimal edits (this happens a lot at the COA too). But there's no way to be completely sure of that and also the whole minimal edits thing leaves so much room for interpretation. Theres also this weird whole fiction that the judge wrote these and my judge sometimes gets a little upset at the insinuation that the signed name didn't write that. (Although she doesn't really look at writing samples, so I doubt that aspect is hurting a candidate.)

FWIW, the way I avoided that issue when I applied for COA clerkships was to use a draft (rather than the final order) with the names changed and the case number removed. I added a cover page noting that my judge gave me permission to share the draft, which was self-edited. I can't guarantee that didn't ruffle somebody's feathers due to the fiction you're mentioning, but I landed a COA clerkship, so it all worked out.

Now, changing the names and removing the case number certainly wouldn't have prevented anybody from going on Westlaw and finding the order, but I figured nobody cared enough to do that. Plus, my judge didn't care. I did it solely because I figured it would reduce the odds of ruffling a COA judge's feathers.

[lavarman84]

Thoughts on my competitiveness for COA down the road? I imagine it's a long shot, but looking for an honest handicap of my odds:

- 3L at a T50, Top 10%
- Starting a 2-year district court clerkship this fall (different region from school/home, not a major market)
- LR; Moot Court e-board, 2 interscholastic comps
- TA for Appellate Advocacy, RA for a Prof

Also think I might want to work BL first before going back for a second clerkship (should I get one). Would that help my chances?

On the surface, not great. But it depends on your D. Ct. judge. If they have connections and/or a good reputation, that can make a difference, especially if they're willing to write a glowing letter and/or make calls. It's possible. You should apply broadly.

[Anonymous User]

Guy everyone is responding too. I know that often we end up writing the whole thing with minimal edits (this happens a lot at the COA too). But there's no way to be completely sure of that and also the whole minimal edits thing leaves so much room for interpretation. Theres also this weird whole fiction that the judge wrote these and my judge sometimes gets a little upset at the insinuation that the signed name didn't write that. (Although she doesn't really look at writing samples, so I doubt that aspect is hurting a candidate.)

FWIW, the way I avoided that issue when I applied for COA clerkships was to use a draft (rather than the final order) with the names changed and the case number removed. I added a cover page noting that my judge gave me permission to share the draft, which was self-edited. I can't guarantee that didn't ruffle somebody's feathers due to the fiction you're mentioning, but I landed a COA clerkship, so it all worked out.

Now, changing the names and removing the case number certainly wouldn't have prevented anybody from going on Westlaw and finding the order, but I figured nobody cared enough to do that. Plus, my judge didn't care. I did it solely because I figured it would reduce the odds of ruffling a COA judge's feathers.

Yep, this is way better than just sending a pdf of the opinion you wrote.

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on my competitiveness for COA down the road? I imagine it's a long shot, but looking for an honest handicap of my odds:

- 3L at a T50, Top 10%
- Starting a 2-year district court clerkship this fall (different region from school/home, not a major market)
- LR; Moot Court e-board, 2 interscholastic comps
- TA for Appellate Advocacy, RA for a Prof

Also think I might want to work BL first before going back for a second clerkship (should I get one). Would that help my chances?

For the vast majority of circuit judges, zilch without some strong hook. For random judges in flyover country, basically zilch without some strong hook.

Given the district court clerkship, I'm not as down on your chances as the above poster. Are there COA judges who sit in the same city as your district judge (and thus probably knows your judge)? That would probably be your best shot, as would any COA judges in the state where your school is/who have hired from your school before. Some judges (Griffin on CA6 comes to mind) only hire folks with previous clerkships, and that + being in a rural area tends to limit their pool to the point where you might be competitive.

Anon OP here. None in the same city as my judge, but some in the same district. Kind of figured the ones in my school's market would be my best bet. There is some track record of it but not much of it. A couple of judges in my school's area have hired from here, but it's in a very competitive circuit (2/9/DC). Just gotta work for it and see if the dice roll my way I suppose.

I would not be as bearish on your chances as other posters here. I came from a T50 at just below top third and managed to get a COA clerkship with a senior judge after clerking with an MJ on the other side of the country. I had strong connections to the state and we got a long during the interview, but that was really it. (Probably also helped that I was willing to fly 2,000 miles and drive 2 hours from the nearest airport for the interview, which wasn't required but helped me stand out.)

Most Circuit Judges are as selective as the other poster said. The advice you get here is very apt for your median Circuit Judge. But most circuits have at least one or two CJs that don't follow the mold and hire based on things other than raw stats and prestige. It's still an uphill battle, but you shouldn't go out there thinking you need to be Magna from a T6 to land a generic COA clerkship. There are always exceptions.

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on my competitiveness for COA down the road? I imagine it's a long shot, but looking for an honest handicap of my odds:

- 3L at a T50, Top 10%
- Starting a 2-year district court clerkship this fall (different region from school/home, not a major market)
- LR; Moot Court e-board, 2 interscholastic comps
- TA for Appellate Advocacy, RA for a Prof

Also think I might want to work BL first before going back for a second clerkship (should I get one). Would that help my chances?

For the vast majority of circuit judges, zilch without some strong hook. For random judges in flyover country, basically zilch without some strong hook.

Given the district court clerkship, I'm not as down on your chances as the above poster. Are there COA judges who sit in the same city as your district judge (and thus probably knows your judge)? That would probably be your best shot, as would any COA judges in the state where your school is/who have hired from your school before. Some judges (Griffin on CA6 comes to mind) only hire folks with previous clerkships, and that + being in a rural area tends to limit their pool to the point where you might be competitive.

Anon OP here. None in the same city as my judge, but some in the same district. Kind of figured the ones in my school's market would be my best bet. There is some track record of it but not much of it. A couple of judges in my school's area have hired from here, but it's in a very competitive circuit (2/9/DC). Just gotta work for it and see if the dice roll my way I suppose.

I would not be as bearish on your chances as other posters here. I came from a T50 at just below top third and managed to get a COA clerkship with a senior judge after clerking with an MJ on the other side of the country. I had strong connections to the state and we got a long during the interview, but that was really it. (Probably also helped that I was willing to fly 2,000 miles and drive 2 hours from the nearest airport for the interview, which wasn't required but helped me stand out.)

Most Circuit Judges are as selective as the other poster said. The advice you get here is very apt for your median Circuit Judge. But most circuits have at least one or two CJs that don't follow the mold and hire based on things other than raw stats and prestige. It's still an uphill battle, but you shouldn't go out there thinking you need to be Magna from a T6 to land a generic COA clerkship. There are always exceptions.

I agree, I think a 2 year DJ clerkship and top 10% at a T50 w/ the usual pedigree things (LR etc) make you a fringe candidate for lots of COA judges, particularly in the circuit you're clerking and the circuit you're from. I am top 10% at a T50 and doing SSC (reputable, not CA) -> COA (in competitive location but not 2/9/7/DC) with a judge who hires from outside the mold, and a strong hook. I think it's worth applying to every judge in the circuit you're clerking in, the circuit your school is in, and any COA judges in a state you have a personal tie to, plus any school alums or judges originally from the area you're from (assuming it's not like, NYC lol). I wouldn't apply to any known "feeders." I'd check with your school if any former student has done a CoA, and where/which judge. I think BigLaw would be marginally helpful, but not very just because your clerkship is already two years so it's not like you'd be a fresh grad. I think if you apply broadly and are flexible on term and take the time to personalize cover letters etc. you have a meaningful (20%?) chance. Otherwise your judge may have connections and you can utilize their network.

[Anonymous User]

This is probably a dumb question, but did y'all have to find a 13 month lease? I'm looking at housing now and am trying to figure out how people swung a 12 month term plus wiggle room on both ends for move in and move out without adding time to their lease. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

This is probably a dumb question, but did y'all have to find a 13 month lease? I'm looking at housing now and am trying to figure out how people swung a 12 month term plus wiggle room on both ends for move in and move out without adding time to their lease. Thanks!

I was in a LCOL city so did a 13-month lease. I liked the wiggle room. Was it cost-effective? No. Was it worth $1,500 less my clerkship bonus? Yes.

Edit: Will also add it maybe actually ended up only costing $600 more because the monthly rent for a 13 month lease was $70 less than the monthly rent for a 12 month lease.

[alc]

I have what may be a basic question.

How should you apply to a judge that does not have any clerkship application information posted on OSCAR or their court webpage? I have COA judges I would like to apply to in the 5th and 6th circuit, but I cannot find any information on where to submit, what should be included, or whether there are positions available. These judges have not taken senior status, so I assume that they must need clerks. I'm just at a loss.

Is the only resort to call chambers?

[Anonymous User]

I have what may be a basic question.

How should you apply to a judge that does not have any clerkship application information posted on OSCAR or their court webpage? I have COA judges I would like to apply to in the 5th and 6th circuit, but I cannot find any information on where to submit, what should be included, or whether there are positions available. These judges have not taken senior status, so I assume that they must need clerks. I'm just at a loss.

Is the only resort to call chambers?

Just mail a packet.

[siri949]

I have what may be a basic question.

How should you apply to a judge that does not have any clerkship application information posted on OSCAR or their court webpage? I have COA judges I would like to apply to in the 5th and 6th circuit, but I cannot find any information on where to submit, what should be included, or whether there are positions available. These judges have not taken senior status, so I assume that they must need clerks. I'm just at a loss.

Is the only resort to call chambers?

Just mail a packet.

I mailed a cold paper clerkship application to every judge on my local COA who I had not already applied to on OSCAR and it worked. I also interned in a different judge's chambers which also picked exclusively through the mailed-in applications (although I believe the judge's preferred recommenders would give the judge a heads-up it was coming, so not what purely "cold" applicants' odds were). Neither judge is on OSCAR or on 5/6COA.

I only called if I wasn't sure of the correct address or if I wanted to know what term they were hiring for. I would usually just do "applying for the 202x–202y or first later available term clerkship" to get around that if I didn't want to call, which I think is fine.

[Anonymous User]

Are motions like a motion for summary reversal okay to use as writing samples, or would that be too simple?

[Anonymous User]

Are motions like a motion for summary reversal okay to use as writing samples, or would that be too simple?

This can be fine so long as your position is debatable. Sometimes I see writing samples that are basically like district court erred when they relied entirely on an opinion that was overruled. I assume potentially if you're asking for a summary reversal it may be so obvious that there is no real argument (alhtough, of course not always, and how "obvious" it is is the argument.. During interviews, we wanted to push the clerks a little on their position and when their position was the sky is blue it didn't provide us much opportunity to probe.

[Anonymous User]

Would it be weird to invite my judge, who I am clerking for in 2026, to my wedding that is happening in a few months? I don't want him to officiate, but I do want to invite him, unless it would be weird given that our relationship is not that close at this point.

[Anonymous User]

Would it be weird to invite my judge, who I am clerking for in 2026, to my wedding that is happening in a few months? I don't want him to officiate, but I do want to invite him, unless it would be weird given that our relationship is not that close at this point.

For what it's worth, I know a class of 2025 graduate who is starting a clerkship in the fall, but getting married this summer -- their judge is not only invited to their wedding, but I think he's hosting it in his courtroom

[VirginiaFan]

Would it be weird to invite my judge, who I am clerking for in 2026, to my wedding that is happening in a few months? I don't want him to officiate, but I do want to invite him, unless it would be weird given that our relationship is not that close at this point.

Yes, it would be weird. Don't overthink this.

[siri949]

Would it be weird to invite my judge, who I am clerking for in 2026, to my wedding that is happening in a few months? I don't want him to officiate, but I do want to invite him, unless it would be weird given that our relationship is not that close at this point.

Yes, it would be weird. Don't overthink this.

Seconding this

[Anonymous User]

Would it be weird to invite my judge, who I am clerking for in 2026, to my wedding that is happening in a few months? I don't want him to officiate, but I do want to invite him, unless it would be weird given that our relationship is not that close at this point.

Yes, it would be weird. Don't overthink this.

Thanks. One of the current clerks asked if I was going to do that, so I wasn't sure if it was common practice.

[singer2001]

Just finished 1L at CLS, I missed Honors (top 40%) by a single +/-. I'm aware that's not good enough to snag AIII (not fedsoc), but does anyone have any idea how much better I'd need to do 2L and 3L to get back into consideration for a non-feeder COA anywhere or a district court in a major but not NY/DC/LA/SF city?

[Anonymous User]

Just finished 1L at CLS, I missed Honors (top 40%) by a single +/-. I'm aware that's not good enough to snag AIII (not fedsoc), but does anyone have any idea how much better I'd need to do 2L and 3L to get back into consideration for a non-feeder COA anywhere or a district court in a major but not NY/DC/LA/SF city?

Your career center should be able to give you a pretty solid idea with past placements into districts like EDPA, SDFL, MA, NJ, MD; definitely ask. My guess is top third would put you in a solid place for some, not all judges in those kinds of districts. COA (even "anywhere") is a different story and definitely more competitive, and unlike with district courts, COA judges in "flyover" locations are not that much less competitive on average than their coastal, but non-DC/CA/NYC counterparts.

Note: I did not attend a T6 so I'm answering this with general FC clerk thoughts.

[singer2001]

Just finished 1L at CLS, I missed Honors (top 40%) by a single +/-. I'm aware that's not good enough to snag AIII (not fedsoc), but does anyone have any idea how much better I'd need to do 2L and 3L to get back into consideration for a non-feeder COA anywhere or a district court in a major but not NY/DC/LA/SF city?

Your career center should be able to give you a pretty solid idea with past placements into districts like EDPA, SDFL, MA, NJ, MD; definitely ask. My guess is top third would put you in a solid place for some, not all judges in those kinds of districts. COA (even "anywhere") is a different story and definitely more competitive, and unlike with district courts, COA judges in "flyover" locations are not that much less competitive on average than their coastal, but non-DC/CA/NYC counterparts.

Note: I did not attend a T6 so I'm answering this with general FC clerk thoughts.

Cool, how much does it matter that Columbia doesn't do cumulative honors? It seems specifically damaging that I missed it 1L but I'm not sure that that's true and I might just be catastrophizing a disappointing spring, but it's hard for CLS alums, let alone people who didn't attend the school, to know where things like the top 3rd are when people get some mix of honors across their three years. Is the best strategy here just to try to do well in classes that judges will recognize and hope they don't ding me too hard for being slightly above median as a 1L? Also I'm ROTC for the Army Reserves and planning to do public interest lit if that matters. Thanks for the advice!

[Anonymous User]

Just finished 1L at CLS, I missed Honors (top 40%) by a single +/-. I'm aware that's not good enough to snag AIII (not fedsoc), but does anyone have any idea how much better I'd need to do 2L and 3L to get back into consideration for a non-feeder COA anywhere or a district court in a major but not NY/DC/LA/SF city?

Your career center should be able to give you a pretty solid idea with past placements into districts like EDPA, SDFL, MA, NJ, MD; definitely ask. My guess is top third would put you in a solid place for some, not all judges in those kinds of districts. COA (even "anywhere") is a different story and definitely more competitive, and unlike with district courts, COA judges in "flyover" locations are not that much less competitive on average than their coastal, but non-DC/CA/NYC counterparts.

Note: I did not attend a T6 so I'm answering this with general FC clerk thoughts.

Cool, how much does it matter that Columbia doesn't do cumulative honors? It seems specifically damaging that I missed it 1L but I'm not sure that that's true and I might just be catastrophizing a disappointing spring, but it's hard for CLS alums, let alone people who didn't attend the school, to know where things like the top 3rd are when people get some mix of honors across their three years. Is the best strategy here just to try to do well in classes that judges will recognize and hope they don't ding me too hard for being slightly above median as a 1L? Also I'm ROTC for the Army Reserves and planning to do public interest lit if that matters. Thanks for the advice!

I was under the impression starting with class of 2025 that CLS replaced their weird Stone/Kent system and now does cumulative honors equivalent to normal latin honors? My answer was based on that assumption. Since the old system was a 40% threshold at ~3.4, I assume top third is still likely to be around 3.5ish.

FWIW I would imagine the Army Reserves would be a boost to your application, especially among veterans, but I do not have firsthand knowledge of that.

[Anonymous User]

Just finished 1L at CLS, I missed Honors (top 40%) by a single +/-. I'm aware that's not good enough to snag AIII (not fedsoc), but does anyone have any idea how much better I'd need to do 2L and 3L to get back into consideration for a non-feeder COA anywhere or a district court in a major but not NY/DC/LA/SF city?

Your career center should be able to give you a pretty solid idea with past placements into districts like EDPA, SDFL, MA, NJ, MD; definitely ask. My guess is top third would put you in a solid place for some, not all judges in those kinds of districts. COA (even "anywhere") is a different story and definitely more competitive, and unlike with district courts, COA judges in "flyover" locations are not that much less competitive on average than their coastal, but non-DC/CA/NYC counterparts.

Note: I did not attend a T6 so I'm answering this with general FC clerk thoughts.

Cool, how much does it matter that Columbia doesn't do cumulative honors? It seems specifically damaging that I missed it 1L but I'm not sure that that's true and I might just be catastrophizing a disappointing spring, but it's hard for CLS alums, let alone people who didn't attend the school, to know where things like the top 3rd are when people get some mix of honors across their three years. Is the best strategy here just to try to do well in classes that judges will recognize and hope they don't ding me too hard for being slightly above median as a 1L? Also I'm ROTC for the Army Reserves and planning to do public interest lit if that matters. Thanks for the advice!

I was under the impression starting with class of 2025 that CLS replaced their weird Stone/Kent system and now does cumulative honors equivalent to normal latin honors? My answer was based on that assumption. Since the old system was a 40% threshold at ~3.4, I assume top third is still likely to be around 3.5ish.

FWIW I would imagine the Army Reserves would be a boost to your application, especially among veterans, but I do not have firsthand knowledge of that.

Okay, I see now that they are still not doing cumulative other than the RBG prize. I'd say aim for getting honors your 2L year, and that would be a great start since most judges (those on-plan and later-than-plan) won't consider your application until you finish 2L year, anyway.

[Anonymous User]

Just finished 1L at CLS, I missed Honors (top 40%) by a single +/-. I'm aware that's not good enough to snag AIII (not fedsoc), but does anyone have any idea how much better I'd need to do 2L and 3L to get back into consideration for a non-feeder COA anywhere or a district court in a major but not NY/DC/LA/SF city?

Your career center should be able to give you a pretty solid idea with past placements into districts like EDPA, SDFL, MA, NJ, MD; definitely ask. My guess is top third would put you in a solid place for some, not all judges in those kinds of districts. COA (even "anywhere") is a different story and definitely more competitive, and unlike with district courts, COA judges in "flyover" locations are not that much less competitive on average than their coastal, but non-DC/CA/NYC counterparts.

Note: I did not attend a T6 so I'm answering this with general FC clerk thoughts.

Cool, how much does it matter that Columbia doesn't do cumulative honors? It seems specifically damaging that I missed it 1L but I'm not sure that that's true and I might just be catastrophizing a disappointing spring, but it's hard for CLS alums, let alone people who didn't attend the school, to know where things like the top 3rd are when people get some mix of honors across their three years. Is the best strategy here just to try to do well in classes that judges will recognize and hope they don't ding me too hard for being slightly above median as a 1L? Also I'm ROTC for the Army Reserves and planning to do public interest lit if that matters. Thanks for the advice!

I was under the impression starting with class of 2025 that CLS replaced their weird Stone/Kent system and now does cumulative honors equivalent to normal latin honors? My answer was based on that assumption. Since the old system was a 40% threshold at ~3.4, I assume top third is still likely to be around 3.5ish.

FWIW I would imagine the Army Reserves would be a boost to your application, especially among veterans, but I do not have firsthand knowledge of that.

Okay, I see now that they are still not doing cumulative other than the RBG prize. I'd say aim for getting honors your 2L year, and that would be a great start since most judges (those on-plan and later-than-plan) won't consider your application until you finish 2L year, anyway.

Cool, thank you so much!