Clerks Taking Questions Forum
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Hi all, I'd like to know how people would approach clerking in my position. I'm a URM about to start 3L at a T14. My gpa is a 3.4, so barely above median, and on LR (fwiw I've almost only taken heavy doctrinal classes) Researched and TA'd for multiple professors. I have a publication on LR, did decent in moot court, and received a few named awards. I'll be in litigation at one of Cravath/PW/SullCrom/DPW/GDC in NY and then hope to clerk after.
I think I can get a few good rec letters and possibly some calls, but how would you all approach clerking from my position? My grades are quite low for federal clerkships, so my hope is to leverage other factors. Is that next to impossible on the east coast (although I'd be willing to go more broadly).
I think I can get a few good rec letters and possibly some calls, but how would you all approach clerking from my position? My grades are quite low for federal clerkships, so my hope is to leverage other factors. Is that next to impossible on the east coast (although I'd be willing to go more broadly).
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Your grades wont disqualify you and work experience will help. Biden judges generally emphasize diversity, so target them for sure. I would rely on networks (firm, Bar association, affinity groups at your firm and in your region, mentorship groups, etc) to make connections with former clerks who could vouch for you. Also, apply the day or within days of positions becoming available—the reality is the bar for getting the job is significantly higher than the bar for doing the job (isn’t that the whole profession eh?), and judges want to get hiring done with. I got my first clerkship in part to being facially competent and available. Looking at the files and who I was competing against, I sense my availability played a big big role.
Finally, make sure the rest of your app clearly shows you can do the job. Your gpa doesn’t distinguish you, so make sure you give the reviewer no other reason to say no (great recs, writing sample, etc). Good luck.
Between sdny edny edva edpa dnj dmd, I don’t hate your odds but I also don’t love em. Add in ndil ndca sdca cdca ndga edm ndoh ddel (all of which are in good cities, have great judges, uniquely marketable dockets, or some combination of all), then I’m kinda liking your odds.
Finally, make sure the rest of your app clearly shows you can do the job. Your gpa doesn’t distinguish you, so make sure you give the reviewer no other reason to say no (great recs, writing sample, etc). Good luck.
Between sdny edny edva edpa dnj dmd, I don’t hate your odds but I also don’t love em. Add in ndil ndca sdca cdca ndga edm ndoh ddel (all of which are in good cities, have great judges, uniquely marketable dockets, or some combination of all), then I’m kinda liking your odds.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
It is not my impression that DNJ and DMD are in the same tier as SDNY or otherwise more competitive/prestigious than NDIL or NDCA.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
They’re not, but there are a lot of judges on all these benches looking for different things. DMD and DNJ are still competitive being the “next best thing” in east coast cities. The point is the broader OP applies, the better his odds.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:38 amIt is not my impression that DNJ and DMD are in the same tier as SDNY or otherwise more competitive/prestigious than NDIL or NDCA.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Tiny thing but: I am about to start work at biglaw. I recently took the bar. Since the results take a while to come back, then there is the entire C&F process and swearing in, I am not anticipating actually being a licensed attorney for months. I am hoping to apply for clerkships during this time. How did you guys list yourself during this situation on your resume and in cover letters?
I think my title is technically "law clerk," but it feels confusing to list myself that way when I'm applying to be a "law clerk" of a totally different variety. Would it be weird to list myself as "associate attorney" when I haven't technically qualified as one yet?
I think my title is technically "law clerk," but it feels confusing to list myself that way when I'm applying to be a "law clerk" of a totally different variety. Would it be weird to list myself as "associate attorney" when I haven't technically qualified as one yet?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I wouldn't suggest holding yourself out as an attorney when you're not licensed to practice. I don't think the law clerk title is particularly confusing. You can always note your post-exam/pre-admission status in your cover letter if you want.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 9:57 amTiny thing but: I am about to start work at biglaw. I recently took the bar. Since the results take a while to come back, then there is the entire C&F process and swearing in, I am not anticipating actually being a licensed attorney for months. I am hoping to apply for clerkships during this time. How did you guys list yourself during this situation on your resume and in cover letters?
I think my title is technically "law clerk," but it feels confusing to list myself that way when I'm applying to be a "law clerk" of a totally different variety. Would it be weird to list myself as "associate attorney" when I haven't technically qualified as one yet?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Go with the title your firm will call you, which is "law clerk" in most of biglaw. If that feels weird to you, you can put (pending bar admission) in parentheses, and/or note in your cover letter that you will become an associate pending bar admission.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 9:57 amTiny thing but: I am about to start work at biglaw. I recently took the bar. Since the results take a while to come back, then there is the entire C&F process and swearing in, I am not anticipating actually being a licensed attorney for months. I am hoping to apply for clerkships during this time. How did you guys list yourself during this situation on your resume and in cover letters?
I think my title is technically "law clerk," but it feels confusing to list myself that way when I'm applying to be a "law clerk" of a totally different variety. Would it be weird to list myself as "associate attorney" when I haven't technically qualified as one yet?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
This is nothing unusual and you should just list yourself as a law clerk. Everyone will understand the situation.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Hi everyone, I'm about to start 2L at a lower T14 here. I'm trying to map out how hard to push on various fronts before applying on plan next summer.
Stats:
-Ranked #6. We lost #1 to HYS transfer. Less than 0.1 separates the GPAs of the top seven (or now six, I suppose) students; there's a fairly significant drop-off after that. Trying to gauge how much the ranking will matter for super elite stuff if the GPAs are basically the same.
-On LR. Again, for super elite stuff, how much does EIC matter vs. being, like, #3 on the totem pole?
Liberal, very non-elite undergrad. I'm not sure if this, combined with lower T14, makes me close to DOA for SCOTUS even if I climb to #1. On ACS e-board.
-Could get a great rec from one of the more famous professors at the school, a solid rec from one of the other more prominent profs, and a few great recs from less well-known professors.
I already have a job, and unless I really fall off the wagon, it seems like I should have a good shot at eventually securing a COA. So, in short, do I have enough of a shot at SCOTUS if I put on a show this year that it's worth working my ass off?
Stats:
-Ranked #6. We lost #1 to HYS transfer. Less than 0.1 separates the GPAs of the top seven (or now six, I suppose) students; there's a fairly significant drop-off after that. Trying to gauge how much the ranking will matter for super elite stuff if the GPAs are basically the same.
-On LR. Again, for super elite stuff, how much does EIC matter vs. being, like, #3 on the totem pole?
Liberal, very non-elite undergrad. I'm not sure if this, combined with lower T14, makes me close to DOA for SCOTUS even if I climb to #1. On ACS e-board.
-Could get a great rec from one of the more famous professors at the school, a solid rec from one of the other more prominent profs, and a few great recs from less well-known professors.
I already have a job, and unless I really fall off the wagon, it seems like I should have a good shot at eventually securing a COA. So, in short, do I have enough of a shot at SCOTUS if I put on a show this year that it's worth working my ass off?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
How much of a boost are post-law school journal publications? I have a few seminar papers I may spruce up if it's helpful in securing a clerkship in a year or two. Simply trying to calculate the cost-benefit of getting them up to snuff.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I think you're being very realistic about your chances, but I wouldn't take SCOTUS off the table at this point for yourself, not at all. You have a realistic path to #1 in your class, which will help you more than the other distinctions you list. Of the justices who hire liberals, there's not much you can do about CJR and EK rarely (if ever) hiring from your school, but SMS regularly hires from the lower T14 and upper T1, and KBJ may develop the same way.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:28 pmHi everyone, I'm about to start 2L at a lower T14 here. I'm trying to map out how hard to push on various fronts before applying on plan next summer.
Stats:
-Ranked #6. We lost #1 to HYS transfer. Less than 0.1 separates the GPAs of the top seven (or now six, I suppose) students; there's a fairly significant drop-off after that. Trying to gauge how much the ranking will matter for super elite stuff if the GPAs are basically the same.
-On LR. Again, for super elite stuff, how much does EIC matter vs. being, like, #3 on the totem pole?
Liberal, very non-elite undergrad. I'm not sure if this, combined with lower T14, makes me close to DOA for SCOTUS even if I climb to #1. On ACS e-board.
-Could get a great rec from one of the more famous professors at the school, a solid rec from one of the other more prominent profs, and a few great recs from less well-known professors.
I already have a job, and unless I really fall off the wagon, it seems like I should have a good shot at eventually securing a COA. So, in short, do I have enough of a shot at SCOTUS if I put on a show this year that it's worth working my ass off?
A great rec from a famous professor, or a non-famous professor who personally knows a Justice (e.g. former clerk, White House Counsel's office, SCOTUS litigator), will go a long way. Your school mobilizing behind you is also important--getting to #1 and making yourself well-known to your dean and the professors who run your school's clerkship committee and make SCOTUS outreach will be near-essential. EIC would help, but a lower LR exec position with a good published article might be better than EIC. I doubt ACS moves the needle as much, maybe if you're involved nationally or the like.
Regardless of SCOTUS, you're well set up to clerk on pretty much any COA or D. Ct. you want in the country. Depending on how things go you may have a hard time with big feeders, D.C. Cir., S.D.N.Y., but there will be a lot of judges who want to hire you. Good luck!
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Think this depends a bit on whether the lower T14 is Cornell or UCLA vs Berkeley or Michigan. Stupid, but seems to matter a little.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 12:39 pmI think you're being very realistic about your chances, but I wouldn't take SCOTUS off the table at this point for yourself, not at all. You have a realistic path to #1 in your class, which will help you more than the other distinctions you list. Of the justices who hire liberals, there's not much you can do about CJR and EK rarely (if ever) hiring from your school, but SMS regularly hires from the lower T14 and upper T1, and KBJ may develop the same way.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:28 pmHi everyone, I'm about to start 2L at a lower T14 here. I'm trying to map out how hard to push on various fronts before applying on plan next summer.
Stats:
-Ranked #6. We lost #1 to HYS transfer. Less than 0.1 separates the GPAs of the top seven (or now six, I suppose) students; there's a fairly significant drop-off after that. Trying to gauge how much the ranking will matter for super elite stuff if the GPAs are basically the same.
-On LR. Again, for super elite stuff, how much does EIC matter vs. being, like, #3 on the totem pole?
Liberal, very non-elite undergrad. I'm not sure if this, combined with lower T14, makes me close to DOA for SCOTUS even if I climb to #1. On ACS e-board.
-Could get a great rec from one of the more famous professors at the school, a solid rec from one of the other more prominent profs, and a few great recs from less well-known professors.
I already have a job, and unless I really fall off the wagon, it seems like I should have a good shot at eventually securing a COA. So, in short, do I have enough of a shot at SCOTUS if I put on a show this year that it's worth working my ass off?
A great rec from a famous professor, or a non-famous professor who personally knows a Justice (e.g. former clerk, White House Counsel's office, SCOTUS litigator), will go a long way. Your school mobilizing behind you is also important--getting to #1 and making yourself well-known to your dean and the professors who run your school's clerkship committee and make SCOTUS outreach will be near-essential. EIC would help, but a lower LR exec position with a good published article might be better than EIC. I doubt ACS moves the needle as much, maybe if you're involved nationally or the like.
Regardless of SCOTUS, you're well set up to clerk on pretty much any COA or D. Ct. you want in the country. Depending on how things go you may have a hard time with big feeders, D.C. Cir., S.D.N.Y., but there will be a lot of judges who want to hire you. Good luck!
I agree they have a good chance of any COA, but think you are overstating the accessibility of competitive, but not top tier feeder, COA clerkships. A left leaning summa Cornell grad isn't getting their app tossed, but they are not a shoe-in for liberal judges on competitive circuits (e.g., Lynch, Rikelman, Kearse). I was at Chicago and it was pretty consensus you had to be high honors to have even a stones throw at top circuits as a liberal applicant
On SCOTUS though - professor/institutional support is really the best you can do while in law school. The most determinative thing will be who you clerk for and whether they are willing to push you.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Hi all,
After striking out 2L and getting 1 interview 3L in WDTX (Austin) that conflicted with my DOJ job, wanted to see what my chances are for competitive district courts and circuit courts.
Stats:
- Lower T14;
- Magna / Coif;
- Secondary Journal;
- RA'd for a Very Respected Professor;
- Summered at Skadden 1L and Latham 2L (Return Offers Received From Both);
- Graduated in May;
- Lucky Enough to Get a DOJ Honors Post in a Civil Litigation Component (Think Commercial Lit / Nat Courts / Civ Fraud / Corp Lit)
Would really love to clerk in the future and wanted to get any insights on what my odds are, and if that fails, if I would be wanted by biglaw firms after a couple years of DOJ work.
After striking out 2L and getting 1 interview 3L in WDTX (Austin) that conflicted with my DOJ job, wanted to see what my chances are for competitive district courts and circuit courts.
Stats:
- Lower T14;
- Magna / Coif;
- Secondary Journal;
- RA'd for a Very Respected Professor;
- Summered at Skadden 1L and Latham 2L (Return Offers Received From Both);
- Graduated in May;
- Lucky Enough to Get a DOJ Honors Post in a Civil Litigation Component (Think Commercial Lit / Nat Courts / Civ Fraud / Corp Lit)
Would really love to clerk in the future and wanted to get any insights on what my odds are, and if that fails, if I would be wanted by biglaw firms after a couple years of DOJ work.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I'd forward this one to my judge in a semi-flyover coa location (think city just under 1 million) respected, well known judge but by no means a feeder I don't think she would have interviewed unless something in particular caught her eye though. Process is so competitive. Fact that you would get referred though means you certainly have a possibility of picking up interviews.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:22 pmHi all,
After striking out 2L and getting 1 interview 3L in WDTX (Austin) that conflicted with my DOJ job, wanted to see what my chances are for competitive district courts and circuit courts.
Stats:
- Lower T14;
- Magna / Coif;
- Secondary Journal;
- RA'd for a Very Respected Professor;
- Summered at Skadden 1L and Latham 2L (Return Offers Received From Both);
- Graduated in May;
- Lucky Enough to Get a DOJ Honors Post in a Civil Litigation Component (Think Commercial Lit / Nat Courts / Civ Fraud / Corp Lit)
Would really love to clerk in the future and wanted to get any insights on what my odds are, and if that fails, if I would be wanted by biglaw firms after a couple years of DOJ work.
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- Posts: 431991
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Clerks Taking Questions
When does COA chambers reach out to start onboarding process? Is it typically judge-dependent? I have not spoken to chambers in like 2.5 years since I got the job but its coming up somewhat soon lol
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I'd forward your application to my SDNY judge. You have good odds.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 12:55 pmI'd forward this one to my judge in a semi-flyover coa location (think city just under 1 million) respected, well known judge but by no means a feeder I don't think she would have interviewed unless something in particular caught her eye though. Process is so competitive. Fact that you would get referred though means you certainly have a possibility of picking up interviews.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:22 pmHi all,
After striking out 2L and getting 1 interview 3L in WDTX (Austin) that conflicted with my DOJ job, wanted to see what my chances are for competitive district courts and circuit courts.
Stats:
- Lower T14;
- Magna / Coif;
- Secondary Journal;
- RA'd for a Very Respected Professor;
- Summered at Skadden 1L and Latham 2L (Return Offers Received From Both);
- Graduated in May;
- Lucky Enough to Get a DOJ Honors Post in a Civil Litigation Component (Think Commercial Lit / Nat Courts / Civ Fraud / Corp Lit)
Would really love to clerk in the future and wanted to get any insights on what my odds are, and if that fails, if I would be wanted by biglaw firms after a couple years of DOJ work.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
For my non-feeder flyover COA in a populated area, your credentials are good, but it would entirely depend on your writing samples. Grades/credentials were a threshold, but after that it came down to writing. It's actually somewhat surprising how many applicants have excellent grades/schools/jobs but lackluster writing samples and therefore get dinged. Most probably end up with clerkships elsewhere, but just note that some chambers really scrutinize writing.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:22 pmHi all,
After striking out 2L and getting 1 interview 3L in WDTX (Austin) that conflicted with my DOJ job, wanted to see what my chances are for competitive district courts and circuit courts.
Stats:
- Lower T14;
- Magna / Coif;
- Secondary Journal;
- RA'd for a Very Respected Professor;
- Summered at Skadden 1L and Latham 2L (Return Offers Received From Both);
- Graduated in May;
- Lucky Enough to Get a DOJ Honors Post in a Civil Litigation Component (Think Commercial Lit / Nat Courts / Civ Fraud / Corp Lit)
Would really love to clerk in the future and wanted to get any insights on what my odds are, and if that fails, if I would be wanted by biglaw firms after a couple years of DOJ work.
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- Posts: 431991
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Clerks Taking Questions
What’s the school tier ranking for clerkship hiring? Is it still roughly:
Y
S/H
C/C/N
M/V/P
D/N/B
C/GULC
UCLA/Tex
With the obvious caveat that the holistic application obviously matters more than the school. Thoughts?
Y
S/H
C/C/N
M/V/P
D/N/B
C/GULC
UCLA/Tex
With the obvious caveat that the holistic application obviously matters more than the school. Thoughts?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
YAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:03 amWhat’s the school tier ranking for clerkship hiring? Is it still roughly:
Y
S/H
C/C/N
M/V/P
D/N/B
C/GULC
UCLA/Tex
With the obvious caveat that the holistic application obviously matters more than the school. Thoughts?
S/H/C
Your next 3 rows aggregated
Columbia and NYU have lower clerkship rates than almost every school in that tier. Obviously still great, but definitely not their own tier.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
For my CA2 judge, it would be:
Y/S
H
C/C/N
V/P
Y/S
H
C/C/N
V/P
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Asking other circuit clerks if they had a similar experience. My circuit judge is nice and smart but when it comes to cases or writing he legitimately does not do anything beyond just telling me what he thinks the outcome of the case should be after reading the bench memo and the briefs. I have to give him my opinions to read over before filing them, but he rarely if ever makes any edits. He's been a judge for a while so maybe this is par for the course and he has honed instincts on these things that I don't have, but I can't imagine that my writing or legal reasoning is so perfect to necessitate close to zero edits.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
are your co-clerks reviewing too? Some chambers have several rounds of robust co-clerk review and the judge will think bigger picture, catch logical gaps and organization, and correct small preferences in writingAnonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:06 pmAsking other circuit clerks if they had a similar experience. My circuit judge is nice and smart but when it comes to cases or writing he legitimately does not do anything beyond just telling me what he thinks the outcome of the case should be after reading the bench memo and the briefs. I have to give him my opinions to read over before filing them, but he rarely if ever makes any edits. He's been a judge for a while so maybe this is par for the course and he has honed instincts on these things that I don't have, but I can't imagine that my writing or legal reasoning is so perfect to necessitate close to zero edits.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Not required but we started having one clerk review our work because we're scared of missing something.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:23 pmare your co-clerks reviewing too? Some chambers have several rounds of robust co-clerk review and the judge will think bigger picture, catch logical gaps and organization, and correct small preferences in writingAnonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:06 pmAsking other circuit clerks if they had a similar experience. My circuit judge is nice and smart but when it comes to cases or writing he legitimately does not do anything beyond just telling me what he thinks the outcome of the case should be after reading the bench memo and the briefs. I have to give him my opinions to read over before filing them, but he rarely if ever makes any edits. He's been a judge for a while so maybe this is par for the course and he has honed instincts on these things that I don't have, but I can't imagine that my writing or legal reasoning is so perfect to necessitate close to zero edits.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I went through a similar experience. It was frustrating because the panel would sometimes have much more feedback, which felt embarassing. Some judges are just light editors for their clerks for whatever reason. That said, my co-clerks were invaluable and were willing to go over my drafts.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:06 pmAsking other circuit clerks if they had a similar experience. My circuit judge is nice and smart but when it comes to cases or writing he legitimately does not do anything beyond just telling me what he thinks the outcome of the case should be after reading the bench memo and the briefs. I have to give him my opinions to read over before filing them, but he rarely if ever makes any edits. He's been a judge for a while so maybe this is par for the course and he has honed instincts on these things that I don't have, but I can't imagine that my writing or legal reasoning is so perfect to necessitate close to zero edits.
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