Movement Forum

[justbrowsingmydude]

I know so many people with amazing grades -- 3.9+ -- who have struck out from Penn "Carey" Law. But don't worry, I sure hope your resume says "Carey" on it.

This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, given 10ish people of the 25 in Order of the Coif have clerkships, not all Order folks want a clerkship, and the cutoff for Order is generally underneath 3.9+. I think Class of 2022 did much better than Class of 2023 in clerkships, though - not sure if 2023 was unusually weak, or if the numbers will grow with post-grad hires.

Only 10 of the top 25 in the class having a clerkship seems very low for a school of Penn’s rank

I do think Penn’s grade inflation hurts with the most selective judges—it makes it hard to tell who’s actually at the top of the class.

How do the Penn people just outside coif or in cum typically do? I think this forum overemphasizes grades with clerkships a bit. A lot of judges, even some very selective ones, don’t parse grades that finely. For example, my judge did not really care about the difference between a 3.8 and a 3.9. Instead, there were just ballpark GPA cutoffs and if an applicant was above the cutoff,then the rest of the app would be thoroughly considered. The judge basically only cared about GPA for the original cutoff purpose. After the cutoff, writing samples and interesting resumes were far more important than GPA differentials. Also, some great students are just painfully awkward and completely tank interviews.

I think we would do a lot better on plan if we had end of 2L awards like NYU where you can definitively say top 10% or top 25%. No one has any idea where they stand at Penn until graduation.

As a current clerk in a fairly competitive district, this is true at least in my case. Frankly, when there’s hundreds of applicants, and a busy docket that I must attend to, it’s hard to justify spending time deciphering how well a penn applicant did in law school when nyu or Columbia resumes make it so easy.

[Anonymous User]

Is it too much to ask for a 3.9+ student to get a single interview in NY or NJ?

Not a NY person, but I thought no Penn students clerk in SDNY/EDNY/Newark postgrad because almost all the NYC judges require a couple years of work experience and the few that don't require it so strictly can hire HYS 3.9+

[Anonymous User]

Is it too much to ask for a 3.9+ student to get a single interview in NY or NJ?

Not a NY person, but I thought no Penn students clerk in SDNY/EDNY/Newark postgrad because almost all the NYC judges require a couple years of work experience and the few that don't require it so strictly can hire HYS 3.9+

This isn’t quite how SDNY hiring works—judges hire far out, meaning that by the time people actually clerk they have work experience, but they still are usually hired as 2Ls

[Anonymous User]

Is it too much to ask for a 3.9+ student to get a single interview in NY or NJ?

Not a NY person, but I thought no Penn students clerk in SDNY/EDNY/Newark postgrad because almost all the NYC judges require a couple years of work experience and the few that don't require it so strictly can hire HYS 3.9+

This isn’t quite how SDNY hiring works—judges hire far out, meaning that by the time people actually clerk they have work experience, but they still are usually hired as 2Ls

Well then this may be another thing Chris incorrectly explained to me

[Anonymous User]

Is it too much to ask for a 3.9+ student to get a single interview in NY or NJ?

This isn't that surprising if you don't have other things going for you besides GPA. SDNY and EDNY are two of the most competitive districts in the country. They both basically require work experience and most of the judges who hire far out are heavily reliant on calls. DNJ loves hiring people with New Jersey ties. For a good chunk of the judges, you are fighting an uphill battle if you don't have connections to New Jersey. Plenty of them prefer good students with local ties over great students without ties.

It doesn't even make sense to restrict yourself to those districts unless you absolutely must be in NYC. I'd at least throw in EDPA and DDE if I were a Penn student looking for a district court clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

I completely mean this in a respectful/non-snarky way: would the Penn people mind having this conversation in a separate/new thread? Totally understand wanting to be able to vent about your school’s lack of support and all, but as someone not at Penn and hoping to see what judges have moved, it’s getting a little confusing with all the Penn posts. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

I completely mean this in a respectful/non-snarky way: would the Penn people mind having this conversation in a separate/new thread? Totally understand wanting to be able to vent about your school’s lack of support and all, but as someone not at Penn and hoping to see what judges have moved, it’s getting a little confusing with all the Penn posts. Thanks!

RT

[Anonymous User]

I completely mean this in a respectful/non-snarky way: would the Penn people mind having this conversation in a separate/new thread? Totally understand wanting to be able to vent about your school’s lack of support and all, but as someone not at Penn and hoping to see what judges have moved, it’s getting a little confusing with all the Penn posts. Thanks!

Was about to ask myself lol thank you

[Anonymous User]

Is it too much to ask for a 3.9+ student to get a single interview in NY or NJ?

This isn't that surprising if you don't have other things going for you besides GPA. SDNY and EDNY are two of the most competitive districts in the country. They both basically require work experience and most of the judges who hire far out are heavily reliant on calls. DNJ loves hiring people with New Jersey ties. For a good chunk of the judges, you are fighting an uphill battle if you don't have connections to New Jersey. Plenty of them prefer good students with local ties over great students without ties.

It doesn't even make sense to restrict yourself to those districts unless you absolutely must be in NYC. I'd at least throw in EDPA and DDE if I were a Penn student looking for a district court clerkship.

Not DDE, unless you love patent law.

[Anonymous User]

Heard of interview movement by Kahn (2nd)

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know the status of the Miami judges on OSCAR (Marcus, Rosenbaum)?

[Anonymous User]

Any movement from Flaum, Shah, Rowland in IL?

[Anonymous User]

Any movement from Komitee or Cogan on EDNY?

[Anonymous User]

Any movement from Komitee or Cogan on EDNY?

Komittee moved in the first week of the Plan

[Anonymous User]

Any movement from Judge King in Seattle?

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard of Chutkan making offers?

[Anonymous User]

Any movement from Paez (9th Cir)?

[Anonymous User]

Have they finished making offers from the 7th circuit staff law clerks?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know if Woods on SDNY is still as bad a chambers environment as it apparently was last time the question got asked here?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know if Woods on SDNY is still as bad a chambers environment as it apparently was last time the question got asked here?

Yes, it is.

[Anonymous User]

Is it unheard of for an SDNY judge to interview you and then make an offer a month later? Still haven't heard back...

[Anonymous User]

Yes. Many judges in SDNY/EDNY will give out 20-30 interviews and wait until everyone has interviewed to make their picks. Which judge is this?

[Anonymous User]

Yes. Many judges in SDNY/EDNY will give out 20-30 interviews and wait until everyone has interviewed to make their picks. Which judge is this?