Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

is it okay to email thank you notes given that most courthouses are closed for the foreseeable future?

[Anonymous User]

if rejected post-interview (assuming you were "close" but just didn't make the cut), is it fine to reapply for a later term? If so, is there a waiting period after rejection or can you respond right away saying that you would like to be considered for the following term as well?

I'm in the same boat, and I asked my clerkship office this question (do I bluntly state that I would be interested for a later term in my reply to the rejection?). The office indicated that including something to that effect in the reply almost certainly wouldn't hurt. So, take that advice for what you will.

I ultimately didn't say anything about future terms when I acknowledged the rejection. I figured if the process had been that close, then the judge would asked directly if I still wanted to be kept under consideration for the next term. Instead, I got a one-liner "Judge enjoyed meeting you. You didn't make the cut." from the JA. I'm interpreting the rejection as reflecting some kind of "fit" issue that wouldn't be remedied by the passage of a single year.

[Anonymous User]

if rejected post-interview (assuming you were "close" but just didn't make the cut), is it fine to reapply for a later term? If so, is there a waiting period after rejection or can you respond right away saying that you would like to be considered for the following term as well?

I asked my school's clerkship office a similar question. Their suggestion was to wait until I had something different I could add to my application - a new writing sample, an additional semester of grades, a new resume line or law school award, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Is doing a COA clerkship generally worth the cost (i.e. financially, perhaps personally) if I have a district court clerkship in the district I want to practice (one of EDVA/CDCA/NDIL/DMass) and will probably go biglaw --> federal government? Assume I have the stats typically required for a non feeder COA, how much am I leaving on the table career-wise by not doing it or at least not doing it immediately after the district?

I know the answer is "it depends" but just in general, how much of a career boost will it provide if I don't want appellate boutique or academia? Is it "yeah you should try, but not doing it is defensible" or is it "if you have the opportunity and don't take it, you're objectively making a poor decision."

[Anonymous User]

How does one go about asking their judge for help getting a clerkship in a subsequent term? I landed a D. Ct. for 22 and would like a COA for 23 but don’t know how I could ask my judge for help since we’ve only spoken once

[Anonymous User]

How does one go about asking their judge for help getting a clerkship in a subsequent term? I landed a D. Ct. for 22 and would like a COA for 23 but don’t know how I could ask my judge for help since we’ve only spoken once

Seconded, but in reverse. My COA judge offered to help but I’m not positive the best way to go about it. Should I just send them a list of my D Ct apps and see what they think?

[Anonymous User]

How does one go about asking their judge for help getting a clerkship in a subsequent term? I landed a D. Ct. for 22 and would like a COA for 23 but don’t know how I could ask my judge for help since we’ve only spoken once

Seconded, but in reverse. My COA judge offered to help but I’m not positive the best way to go about it. Should I just send them a list of my D Ct apps and see what they think?

OP here. If they offered to help I’d do that and maybe ask if there are other judges they think you may be a good fit for; wish I was in your shoes!

[Anonymous User]

How does one go about asking their judge for help getting a clerkship in a subsequent term? I landed a D. Ct. for 22 and would like a COA for 23 but don’t know how I could ask my judge for help since we’ve only spoken once

Seconded, but in reverse. My COA judge offered to help but I’m not positive the best way to go about it. Should I just send them a list of my D Ct apps and see what they think?

Just an FYI, your judge will have the most leverage with district court judges within their circuit.

[wwwcol]

How does one go about asking their judge for help getting a clerkship in a subsequent term? I landed a D. Ct. for 22 and would like a COA for 23 but don’t know how I could ask my judge for help since we’ve only spoken once

Seconded, but in reverse. My COA judge offered to help but I’m not positive the best way to go about it. Should I just send them a list of my D Ct apps and see what they think?

Just an FYI, your judge will have the most leverage with district court judges within their circuit.

This is generally true but there’s an important asterisk: you’d be surprised how many judges randomly are friends with other judges throughout the country. Remember they sit on all sorts of nationwide policy committees and many attend lots of conferences that draw national attendance

[Anonymous User]

On top of this, don't forget your judge's pre-judicial career and the networking power of affinity groups. If your judge worked in DC before going back to their home state to join the bench they likely know a bunch of other judges scattered around the country who did the same. My judge was also a member of a religious minority group and seemed to be friends with every other judge in the country who shared his faith.

[Anonymous User]

On top of this, don't forget your judge's pre-judicial career and the networking power of affinity groups. If your judge worked in DC before going back to their home state to join the bench they likely know a bunch of other judges scattered around the country who did the same. My judge was also a member of a religious minority group and seemed to be friends with every other judge in the country who shared his faith.

If said faith is Mormonism, it seems that every Mormon lawyer in the country knows every other Mormon lawyer. Probably because they basically all go to the same three law schools (BYU, Utah, and Chicago).

Similarly every elite conservative judge in the country basically knows every other elite conservative judge because of Fed Soc conventions and panels.

Also you can’t overlook law school connections. My school feeds some judges in really random places because we have profs who went to Harvard or wherever with them.

[Anonymous User]

On top of this, don't forget your judge's pre-judicial career and the networking power of affinity groups. If your judge worked in DC before going back to their home state to join the bench they likely know a bunch of other judges scattered around the country who did the same. My judge was also a member of a religious minority group and seemed to be friends with every other judge in the country who shared his faith.

If said faith is Mormonism, it seems that every Mormon lawyer in the country knows every other Mormon lawyer. Probably because they basically all go to the same three law schools (BYU, Utah, and Chicago).

Similarly every elite conservative judge in the country basically knows every other elite conservative judge because of Fed Soc conventions and panels.

Also you can’t overlook law school connections. My school feeds some judges in really random places because we have profs who went to Harvard or wherever with them.

Said faith is indeed Mormonism and said judge proved the stereotype that every Mormon seems to know every other Mormon! If I had been looking for another clerkship I feel like I could have easily been hooked up with another Mormon judge.

[Anonymous User]

I applied to a bunch of 22-23 COA positions according to the hiring plan. Since June 15, I've obtained a district court clerkship, and have updated my resume accordingly. If I want to update my application to the COA judges I applied to for 22-23, should I submit an updated cover letter as well, or is it fine to just submit an updated resume / OSCAR profile?

[Anonymous User]

On top of this, don't forget your judge's pre-judicial career and the networking power of affinity groups. If your judge worked in DC before going back to their home state to join the bench they likely know a bunch of other judges scattered around the country who did the same. My judge was also a member of a religious minority group and seemed to be friends with every other judge in the country who shared his faith.

If said faith is Mormonism, it seems that every Mormon lawyer in the country knows every other Mormon lawyer. Probably because they basically all go to the same three law schools (BYU, Utah, and Chicago).

Similarly every elite conservative judge in the country basically knows every other elite conservative judge because of Fed Soc conventions and panels.

Also you can’t overlook law school connections. My school feeds some judges in really random places because we have profs who went to Harvard or wherever with them.

Said faith is indeed Mormonism and said judge proved the stereotype that every Mormon seems to know every other Mormon! If I had been looking for another clerkship I feel like I could have easily been hooked up with another Mormon judge.

As a Mormon, it's less because of law school concentration and more because of the national organization of Mormon lawyers. They know they're a religious minority and (tend to) have similar goals, so they have an interest in promoting others. That being said, I think most of the Bush-appointed LDS judges are relatively moderate because they were appointed partially through a connection with Harry Reid, another member of the church. It's also pretty easy to identify a Mormon lawyer because they (usually) did their undergrad at BYU.

But this is really just a roundabout way of saying that some go to UVA.

[Anonymous User]

I applied to a bunch of 22-23 COA positions according to the hiring plan. Since June 15, I've obtained a district court clerkship, and have updated my resume accordingly. If I want to update my application to the COA judges I applied to for 22-23, should I submit an updated cover letter as well, or is it fine to just submit an updated resume / OSCAR profile?

I would do both.

The issue is that if you were already marked as weak (1 out of 5, or 2 out of 5), you might not get a second look. I.e., I see that you've updated your application, but I had already reviewed it and marked you low, and I have hundreds of other applications to deal with, so I'm not going to bother looking at your updated materials.

[Anonymous User]

How is FedSoc viewed by non-FedSoc judge chambers?

Irrelevant and looked at purely on merit?
Ew gross?
Don't bother because it's expected they will go to FedSoc judges anyway?

[ExperssioUnius]

How is FedSoc viewed by non-FedSoc judge chambers?

Irrelevant and looked at purely on merit?
Ew gross?
Don't bother because it's expected they will go to FedSoc judges anyway?

In my experience, the vast majority view it as the first. A few will even look at it as a plus if they value a contrary view in chambers.

A minority will view it as the second. If they do, I'm not sure that would be a good setting for someone who is in Fed Soc. So, my personal view would be that if listing fed soc was an auto-reject, I might want to list it to avoid being in a bad situation for a year.

I can't imagine many judges view it as the third given how competitive clerkships are and the general wisdom that one essentially will accept an offer they receive. Plus, given that many applicants have preferences for certain districts/states, there isn't always a good FedSoc judge opportunity where an applicant may be looking.

[Anonymous User]

How is FedSoc viewed by non-FedSoc judge chambers?

Irrelevant and looked at purely on merit?
Ew gross?
Don't bother because it's expected they will go to FedSoc judges anyway?

In my experience, the vast majority view it as the first. A few will even look at it as a plus if they value a contrary view in chambers.

A minority will view it as the second. If they do, I'm not sure that would be a good setting for someone who is in Fed Soc. So, my personal view would be that if listing fed soc was an auto-reject, I might want to list it to avoid being in a bad situation for a year.

I can't imagine many judges view it as the third given how competitive clerkships are and the general wisdom that one essentially will accept an offer they receive. Plus, given that many applicants have preferences for certain districts/states, there isn't always a good FedSoc judge opportunity where an applicant may be looking.

This might be descriptively correct as to judges, but it's important to remember that initial screening of apps is generally done by clerks. Clerks tend to be more negative on FedSoc than their judges. I personally wouldn't recommend keeping FedSoc on the resume for apps to Democratic appointees.

[Anonymous User]

How is FedSoc viewed by non-FedSoc judge chambers?

Irrelevant and looked at purely on merit?
Ew gross?
Don't bother because it's expected they will go to FedSoc judges anyway?

In my experience, the vast majority view it as the first. A few will even look at it as a plus if they value a contrary view in chambers.

A minority will view it as the second. If they do, I'm not sure that would be a good setting for someone who is in Fed Soc. So, my personal view would be that if listing fed soc was an auto-reject, I might want to list it to avoid being in a bad situation for a year.

I can't imagine many judges view it as the third given how competitive clerkships are and the general wisdom that one essentially will accept an offer they receive. Plus, given that many applicants have preferences for certain districts/states, there isn't always a good FedSoc judge opportunity where an applicant may be looking.

This might be descriptively correct as to judges, but it's important to remember that initial screening of apps is generally done by clerks. Clerks tend to be more negative on FedSoc than their judges. I personally wouldn't recommend keeping FedSoc on the resume for apps to Democratic appointees.

OP - this is why I asked about chambers not judges, probably should have specified clerks too.

I don't agree with the "you wouldn't want to work with them anyway" part. Vast majority of the legal industry, law students and profs are progressive and hostile to conservatives, yet we get through it and build relationships anyway. But don't want to get into a tangent so I'll leave it at that, I'd be happy to take a clerkship with a judge that hates conservatives if offered one. Glad to hear that most judges aren't like that.

Thank you both for your perspectives!

[Anonymous User]

How is FedSoc viewed by non-FedSoc judge chambers?

Irrelevant and looked at purely on merit?
Ew gross?
Don't bother because it's expected they will go to FedSoc judges anyway?

In my experience, the vast majority view it as the first. A few will even look at it as a plus if they value a contrary view in chambers.

A minority will view it as the second. If they do, I'm not sure that would be a good setting for someone who is in Fed Soc. So, my personal view would be that if listing fed soc was an auto-reject, I might want to list it to avoid being in a bad situation for a year.

I can't imagine many judges view it as the third given how competitive clerkships are and the general wisdom that one essentially will accept an offer they receive. Plus, given that many applicants have preferences for certain districts/states, there isn't always a good FedSoc judge opportunity where an applicant may be looking.

This might be descriptively correct as to judges, but it's important to remember that initial screening of apps is generally done by clerks. Clerks tend to be more negative on FedSoc than their judges. I personally wouldn't recommend keeping FedSoc on the resume for apps to Democratic appointees.

OP - this is why I asked about chambers not judges, probably should have specified clerks too.

I don't agree with the "you wouldn't want to work with them anyway" part. Vast majority of the legal industry, law students and profs are progressive and hostile to conservatives, yet we get through it and build relationships anyway. But don't want to get into a tangent so I'll leave it at that, I'd be happy to take a clerkship with a judge that hates conservatives if offered one. Glad to hear that most judges aren't like that.

Thank you both for your perspectives!

I would hesitate to simply scrub the information off your resume. Many chambers, including both of mine, google competitive candidates. And if FedSoc is truly important to you, it's pretty likely that you have an executive board position or some reference on your law school's FedSoc website (or there's some reference on LinkedIn, etc.), and that will be picked up. If you are concerned that the clerks are pretty liberal in a particular chambers, they are not going to be thrilled to discover this omission, which might be seen as misleading. From experience, I will say that clerks may give you a fair shake if you say you're in Fed Soc (and have seen fairly liberal clerks strongly advocate for Fed Soc applicants), but they will be much more hostile to your app if they think you are trying to hide your Fed Soc affiliation for some reason (and may nuke your app in their conversations with the judge).

[Redamon1]

is it okay to email thank you notes given that most courthouses are closed for the foreseeable future?

Yes

[Redamon1]

if rejected post-interview (assuming you were "close" but just didn't make the cut), is it fine to reapply for a later term? If so, is there a waiting period after rejection or can you respond right away saying that you would like to be considered for the following term as well?

I asked my school's clerkship office a similar question. Their suggestion was to wait until I had something different I could add to my application - a new writing sample, an additional semester of grades, a new resume line or law school award, etc.

Sure, something new would help, but applying a year later, even if not much has changed, is worth it. What's the worst that can happen? Just apply.

[Redamon1]

C/o 2020 graduate here. Do you think a 2023–2024 District court clerkship as my first clerkship would be a little late in my career to have a clerkship? My understanding is that a lot of clerks take on clerkships straight out of law school or one to two years after law school. Ideally, I'd also like to do a CoA Clerkship (likely in 2024–2025, but I'd love to do 2022–2023 if someone would take me) and then transition to some sort of appellate litigation work in a firm, but I'm not sure if three years in a firm doing non-appellate work would negatively affect those chances.

It's later than normal, but I've heard of it being done, especially for patent clerkships where judges like to see 3+ years of experience first.

Seconded. Beyond patent work, some judges prefer candidates with 2+ years of post-law school experience, so you would be competitive. The biggest drawback is the steep pay cut and the need to hunt again for a job post clerkship. Try to project yourself and see if that's something you would be in the mood for after a few years of practice. Clerking is a great transition to a different firm/track, so given your stated goals, this could make sense for you.

[Anonymous User]

I am about to start a SSC clerkship and would one day like to go into government. Perhaps the state AG's office or the governor's office. These offices are often parties before the court.

I want to network with them but I am not quite sure where to draw the ethics line and how to get to know people in these orgs better. I don't want to do anything improper but it would be nice to make connections.

[Anonymous User]

I would hesitate to simply scrub the information off your resume. Many chambers, including both of mine, google competitive candidates. And if FedSoc is truly important to you, it's pretty likely that you have an executive board position or some reference on your law school's FedSoc website (or there's some reference on LinkedIn, etc.), and that will be picked up. If you are concerned that the clerks are pretty liberal in a particular chambers, they are not going to be thrilled to discover this omission, which might be seen as misleading. From experience, I will say that clerks may give you a fair shake if you say you're in Fed Soc (and have seen fairly liberal clerks strongly advocate for Fed Soc applicants), but they will be much more hostile to your app if they think you are trying to hide your Fed Soc affiliation for some reason (and may nuke your app in their conversations with the judge).

I'm the anon from earlier who recommended keeping it off. This is a fair point if you're, for example, the president of your school's FedSoc chapter. If that's you, though, in today's environment you don't really have to worry much about getting a clerkship as long as you have decent grades--the network will help you out. If you're less-involved, I don't think it's a given that your affiliation with the organization will be easily findable.

For some background, I am relatively conservative, was very active in my school's FedSoc chapter, and clerked for a fairly well-known conservative judge. I also externed during law school for a liberal judge whose clerks that term would auto-spike applications with FedSoc on them, despite my sense that the judge wouldn't have cared one way or another. (And this was a few years ago, when the temperature was much lower for this sort of thing.)

At the end of the day, judges are very different and what's good advice for one chambers can be bad for another. But I still stick with my position that keeping it off for apps to liberal judges is, on average, the better move. In my view, better the clerks find out (if they find out) after they've already formed a positive impression of your app.