Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[mjb447]

Hi!! Term clerks: how long after your interviews did you hear back from the judge re an offer (or not)? Just trying to get a sense of the range of time... Thanks!!

It varied, but it was usually at least three or four weeks. Time in chambers goes by really, really quickly, especially around a trial or lengthy hearing or when you're preparing for a sitting.

[HenryHankPalmer]

For those of you with experience on the chambers-side of OSCAR: do you receive notifications when an applicant updates their finalized application? If not, are those updates reflected anywhere? I finalized an application earlier than I should have, and I have updated it with an improved writing sample and updated resume since then. I can't imagine that is a huge deal, but I don't want to annoy the people reading my application or look overly neurotic.

[mjb447]

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences.

As a former clerk, I'm happy to talk to applicants over the phone about my experience clerking. But I'm not going to speak to applicants as a current clerk, just because I think it's improper if I'm also the one screening your application.

I've talked to a handful of current clerks about their experience and the application process. I mention one of those conversations in a cover letter as a specific reason that I am interested in that judge. My clerkship office says there is no problem with that, but, in your experience, is there a risk that it will look bad to a judge?

If the judge's clerks actually spoke with you, then I'm almost certain the judge would not mind (basically trust the clerk's judgment regarding their respective judge). And I don't hold it against applicants emailing me. I just think it's a waste of time because I'm just going to reply "Unfortunately, I can't speak to applicants while applications are pending, but I'm happy to speak with you once my clerkship ends in XXXX." Maybe that response is not as typical as I thought though.

In my chambers, I was usually not at all involved in hiring decisions, so I felt comfortable taking calls. Of course, I could imagine specific questions coming up to which I might have demurred.

[Anonymous User]

I applied early one morning. That afternoon, I got a call from the relevant area code. Based on experience, I thought I was going to be invited to fly in for an interview, so I answered. For the next hour, all of the Judge's clerks asked incredibly difficult (for me anyway) questions based on constitutional hypotheticals and statutory interpretation issues. I thought I did well, but after actually clerking, I can confidently say I did not: I hung up sweaty and never got to meet the Judge.

(Applicants and prospective applicants: this is very, very unusual.)

I have a sneaking suspicion of who the judge is, and I believe they have discontinued this practice.

[beepboopbeep]

I applied early one morning. That afternoon, I got a call from the relevant area code. Based on experience, I thought I was going to be invited to fly in for an interview, so I answered. For the next hour, all of the Judge's clerks asked incredibly difficult (for me anyway) questions based on constitutional hypotheticals and statutory interpretation issues. I thought I did well, but after actually clerking, I can confidently say I did not: I hung up sweaty and never got to meet the Judge.

I had a really similar experience and did not think I did even remotely well. Was very glad not to have gotten that one. Worked out great in the end with a different judge.

[lavarman84]

I applied early one morning. That afternoon, I got a call from the relevant area code. Based on experience, I thought I was going to be invited to fly in for an interview, so I answered. For the next hour, all of the Judge's clerks asked incredibly difficult (for me anyway) questions based on constitutional hypotheticals and statutory interpretation issues. I thought I did well, but after actually clerking, I can confidently say I did not: I hung up sweaty and never got to meet the Judge.

I had a really similar experience and did not think I did even remotely well. Was very glad not to have gotten that one. Worked out great in the end with a different judge.

Yeah, I'd call that a blessing in disguise. That's an odd way to interview.

[Anonymous User]

While people are asking about turnaround times for interview invites, etc., I would like to state that a judge once called me after an interview to reject me.

Probably not the most common practice, but don't assume that a call is an offer. (just trying to dampen the emotional roller coaster that others may have to go on...)

[Anonymous User]

I applied early one morning. That afternoon, I got a call from the relevant area code. Based on experience, I thought I was going to be invited to fly in for an interview, so I answered. For the next hour, all of the Judge's clerks asked incredibly difficult (for me anyway) questions based on constitutional hypotheticals and statutory interpretation issues. I thought I did well, but after actually clerking, I can confidently say I did not: I hung up sweaty and never got to meet the Judge.

(Applicants and prospective applicants: this is very, very unusual.)

I have a sneaking suspicion of who the judge is, and I believe they have discontinued this practice.

Judge Kleinfeld (9th Cir, Alaska) used to do this. There's a hilarious story on TLS somewhere about an applicant picking up after a happy hour and answering while drunk. Good to know he's stopped doing this ridiculous practice.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you with experience on the chambers-side of OSCAR: do you receive notifications when an applicant updates their finalized application? If not, are those updates reflected anywhere? I finalized an application earlier than I should have, and I have updated it with an improved writing sample and updated resume since then. I can't imagine that is a huge deal, but I don't want to annoy the people reading my application or look overly neurotic.

OSCAR shows us that you updated your application and what part of the application was updated, but does not show older versions of the updated doc. It also "bumps" an application into the "most recent" applications.

Anecdotally, I keep close tabs on our chamber's OSCAR account and look to see what was updated when an update comes through. If it's just a writing sample, I ignore, because a new writing sample is unlikely to materially change the calculus in a hiring decision. If a cover letter or resume or grades, I'm more likely to take another look (at least to find out what changed). Sometimes that's obvious: a new summer position or new clerkship or new grades. Sometimes it's less obvious. But it's been pretty uncommon (at least during my tenure) that an update changed much.

[Wild Card]

For those of you with experience on the chambers-side of OSCAR: do you receive notifications when an applicant updates their finalized application? If not, are those updates reflected anywhere? I finalized an application earlier than I should have, and I have updated it with an improved writing sample and updated resume since then. I can't imagine that is a huge deal, but I don't want to annoy the people reading my application or look overly neurotic.

OSCAR shows us that you updated your application and what part of the application was updated, but does not show older versions of the updated doc. It also "bumps" an application into the "most recent" applications.

Anecdotally, I keep close tabs on our chamber's OSCAR account and look to see what was updated when an update comes through. If it's just a writing sample, I ignore, because a new writing sample is unlikely to materially change the calculus in a hiring decision. If a cover letter or resume or grades, I'm more likely to take another look (at least to find out what changed). Sometimes that's obvious: a new summer position or new clerkship or new grades. Sometimes it's less obvious. But it's been pretty uncommon (at least during my tenure) that an update changed much.

Well, it depends on how you sort. If your chambers gets an unmanageable number of applications, it would be better just to sort by law school. And then you can still see when's the last time a candidate updated his app.

So it's not bumped up in the queue--well, it is, but you would have to sort by "Last Updated," which is not the best way to sort and review.

[Internationalist]

For those of you with experience on the chambers-side of OSCAR: do you receive notifications when an applicant updates their finalized application? If not, are those updates reflected anywhere? I finalized an application earlier than I should have, and I have updated it with an improved writing sample and updated resume since then. I can't imagine that is a huge deal, but I don't want to annoy the people reading my application or look overly neurotic.

OSCAR shows us that you updated your application and what part of the application was updated, but does not show older versions of the updated doc. It also "bumps" an application into the "most recent" applications.

Anecdotally, I keep close tabs on our chamber's OSCAR account and look to see what was updated when an update comes through. If it's just a writing sample, I ignore, because a new writing sample is unlikely to materially change the calculus in a hiring decision. If a cover letter or resume or grades, I'm more likely to take another look (at least to find out what changed). Sometimes that's obvious: a new summer position or new clerkship or new grades. Sometimes it's less obvious. But it's been pretty uncommon (at least during my tenure) that an update changed much.

Well, it depends on how you sort. If your chambers gets an unmanageable number of applications, it would be better just to sort by law school. And then you can still see when's the last time a candidate updated his app.

So it's not bumped up in the queue--well, it is, but you would have to sort by "Last Updated," which is not the best way to sort and review.

Have you clerked? You have a ton of posts mentioning your applications and how it would be an honor to clerk, but it isn't obvious that you actually have the experience to comment on how chambers sort through applications. This does a disservice to applicants.

[Anonymous User]

Obviously this is likely chambers-specific, but curious if there is a trend. Are clerks/judges typically reviewing applications as they come in? If you don't receive a request to interview from a judge within, say 2 weeks, are you likely dead in the water?

[lavarman84]

Obviously this is likely chambers-specific, but curious if there is a trend. Are clerks/judges typically reviewing applications as they come in? If you don't receive a request to interview from a judge within, say 2 weeks, are you likely dead in the water?

No. Maybe in some chambers that move quickly or feeder types who want to pounce on the top candidates. But from my experience, it's pretty typical to open up for applications and then wait for a period of time to get a good number before you start offering interviews.

[lavarman84]

While people are asking about turnaround times for interview invites, etc., I would like to state that a judge once called me after an interview to reject me.

Probably not the most common practice, but don't assume that a call is an offer. (just trying to dampen the emotional roller coaster that others may have to go on...)

It happened to me as well. But the judge was very nice about it and complimentary, so while it was disappointing, I didn't feel too badly (it also helped that I knew I was about to get an offer from another judge). But as you said, that's not the norm.

[Anonymous User]

Obviously this is likely chambers-specific, but curious if there is a trend. Are clerks/judges typically reviewing applications as they come in? If you don't receive a request to interview from a judge within, say 2 weeks, are you likely dead in the water?

The answer to this is "it depends" even more than to almost any other question. My judge transitioned from off-plan to on-plan while I was there. While he was off-plan, he reviewed applications when he had a slow day. Sometimes apps might not get read for a month or two, and then sometimes he'd spend two Fridays in a row on apps. Sometimes he'd want to pull in a candidate immediately after reading their app, and sometimes he'd sit on one and wait to see how it held up against apps that came in later.

Conversely when he moved to on-plan hiring last June, we tried to review everything that came in Day 1 immediately, and we had contacted everyone who we wanted to interview within a few days.

I imagine if you ask 10 clerks this question you may get 10 different answers, although judges who are serious about sticking to the plan will likely do something similar to what my judge did last year.

[lavarman84]

Obviously this is likely chambers-specific, but curious if there is a trend. Are clerks/judges typically reviewing applications as they come in? If you don't receive a request to interview from a judge within, say 2 weeks, are you likely dead in the water?

The answer to this is "it depends" even more than to almost any other question. My judge transitioned from off-plan to on-plan while I was there. While he was off-plan, he reviewed applications when he had a slow day. Sometimes apps might not get read for a month or two, and then sometimes he'd spend two Fridays in a row on apps. Sometimes he'd want to pull in a candidate immediately after reading their app, and sometimes he'd sit on one and wait to see how it held up against apps that came in later.

Conversely when he moved to on-plan hiring last June, we tried to review everything that came in Day 1 immediately, and we had contacted everyone who we wanted to interview within a few days.

I imagine if you ask 10 clerks this question you may get 10 different answers, although judges who are serious about sticking to the plan will likely do something similar to what my judge did last year.

This is a good point about the plan. It might become more typical as judges are all rushing to hire the "top applicants" at the same time.

[mjb447]

Obviously this is likely chambers-specific, but curious if there is a trend. Are clerks/judges typically reviewing applications as they come in? If you don't receive a request to interview from a judge within, say 2 weeks, are you likely dead in the water?

No. Maybe in some chambers that move quickly or feeder types who want to pounce on the top candidates. But from my experience, it's pretty typical to open up for applications and then wait for a period of time to get a good number before you start offering interviews.

This was my experience as well.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you with experience on the chambers-side of OSCAR: do you receive notifications when an applicant updates their finalized application? If not, are those updates reflected anywhere? I finalized an application earlier than I should have, and I have updated it with an improved writing sample and updated resume since then. I can't imagine that is a huge deal, but I don't want to annoy the people reading my application or look overly neurotic.

OSCAR shows us that you updated your application and what part of the application was updated, but does not show older versions of the updated doc. It also "bumps" an application into the "most recent" applications.

Anecdotally, I keep close tabs on our chamber's OSCAR account and look to see what was updated when an update comes through. If it's just a writing sample, I ignore, because a new writing sample is unlikely to materially change the calculus in a hiring decision. If a cover letter or resume or grades, I'm more likely to take another look (at least to find out what changed). Sometimes that's obvious: a new summer position or new clerkship or new grades. Sometimes it's less obvious. But it's been pretty uncommon (at least during my tenure) that an update changed much.

Well, it depends on how you sort. If your chambers gets an unmanageable number of applications, it would be better just to sort by law school. And then you can still see when's the last time a candidate updated his app.

So it's not bumped up in the queue--well, it is, but you would have to sort by "Last Updated," which is not the best way to sort and review.

Fair. I've been monitoring OSCAR for 2021/2022 positions for like 6 or 8 months now, so not during an on-plan application cycle. I'm sure my methods will change significantly in a couple weeks when the applications numbers are higher.

[HenryHankPalmer]

For those of you with experience on the chambers-side of OSCAR: do you receive notifications when an applicant updates their finalized application? If not, are those updates reflected anywhere? I finalized an application earlier than I should have, and I have updated it with an improved writing sample and updated resume since then. I can't imagine that is a huge deal, but I don't want to annoy the people reading my application or look overly neurotic.

OSCAR shows us that you updated your application and what part of the application was updated, but does not show older versions of the updated doc. It also "bumps" an application into the "most recent" applications.

Anecdotally, I keep close tabs on our chamber's OSCAR account and look to see what was updated when an update comes through. If it's just a writing sample, I ignore, because a new writing sample is unlikely to materially change the calculus in a hiring decision. If a cover letter or resume or grades, I'm more likely to take another look (at least to find out what changed). Sometimes that's obvious: a new summer position or new clerkship or new grades. Sometimes it's less obvious. But it's been pretty uncommon (at least during my tenure) that an update changed much.

Do you know if this is the case for On-Plan chambers? I was under the impression that On-Plan judges don't see anything until the release date, so I have been updating a few finalized applications. I am massively overthinking, but would multiple updates to an application ever reflect poorly on an applicant?

[Contango]

Do you know if this is the case for On-Plan chambers? I was under the impression that On-Plan judges don't see anything until the release date, so I have been updating a few finalized applications. I am massively overthinking, but would multiple updates to an application ever reflect poorly on an applicant?

Seconded on hearing from one of the current clerks on this. I'm trying to avoid being too neurotic, but I've been operating under the impression that OSCAR blocked chambers-side visibility into c/o 2021 application materials until June 15th, even if the apps are "finalized" on the applicant side.

[Anonymous User]

Do you know if this is the case for On-Plan chambers? I was under the impression that On-Plan judges don't see anything until the release date, so I have been updating a few finalized applications. I am massively overthinking, but would multiple updates to an application ever reflect poorly on an applicant?

Seconded on hearing from one of the current clerks on this. I'm trying to avoid being too neurotic, but I've been operating under the impression that OSCAR blocked chambers-side visibility into c/o 2021 application materials until June 15th, even if the apps are "finalized" on the applicant side.

I'm the one who talked about seeing updates come through. These were not on-plan applicants. These were 3Ls or alums. We can't see the on-plan applications yet.

[Contango]

I'm the one who talked about seeing updates come through. These were not on-plan applicants. These were 3Ls or alums. We can't see the on-plan applications yet.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Anonymous User]

If an application is submitted on OSCAR, but only 2 out of 3 rec letters are submitted, will chambers ever look at the app? If the applicant is otherwise appealing?

[Anonymous User]

If an application is submitted on OSCAR, but only 2 out of 3 rec letters are submitted, will chambers ever look at the app? If the applicant is otherwise appealing?

I had a few interviews where not a single one of my rec letters had come in, but I think that is more the exception than the rule

[Internationalist]

If an application is submitted on OSCAR, but only 2 out of 3 rec letters are submitted, will chambers ever look at the app? If the applicant is otherwise appealing?

We still see the app from our side on Oscar. Assuming we were otherwise interested in your application, we should just ask you or your recommender to forward the LoR.