Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[The Lsat Airbender]

This is particularly true for applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds who might be less comfortable making the connections they need to or who just might lack the institutional awareness of the (let's be honest here) WASP Ivy League insiders with massive networks that they're going up against.

I clerk in an extremely selective district. I'm looking at the clerk directory. It's a long list. I can count the number of "WASP Ivy Leaguers" on the list with one hand. I think your boogeyman is almost extinct and you need to chill out with your racism and religious bigotry.

I am neither Anglo-Saxon nor Protestant, but I am from a "disadvantaged background" and wouldn't want people hating me for who I am and what I believe.

FYI, the term WASP doesn't precisely mean what the acronym stands for nowadays. It's a social stratum that historically was dominated by descendants of old-line English settlers but nowadays includes a broader range of (white) ethnic or (Christian) religious backgrounds because those lines have blurred. The Kennedys aren't WASPs by the literal definition, and their Irish Catholic forebears certainly faced discrimination, but nowadays they are firmly members of the New England/New York elite.

I think, for that reason, it's a bit of an outdated and unhelpful term, but it's not bigoted. It only points out religion and race in order to highlight the fact that black/Asian/Latino/Jewish people (etc.) are excluded from many of these social circles.

[Anonymous User]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

Just as a counter-perspective here, I'm a former clerk who wouldn't mind receiving this email from someone who goes to my alma mater, although it's something I'd rather do over the phone, and it's a question you'd have to ask in the right tone. I won't be able to make your application better, and I'm not going to encourage you to package yourself as someone you're not. But if someone with competitive grades reaches out to me and we have a good conversation, I'm comfortable reaching out to the judge to let them know you applied and that I think you're a good candidate. That should at least get your app pulled and from there it's up to the judge. Past clerks from my school were enormously valuable to me when I was applying and I feel a lot of loyalty toward my school, so I don't mind sticking my neck out if I think the person has a legitimate shot at getting hired.

[beepboopbeep]

I would also feel comfortable passing along an app to my judge's attention after a good phone conversation from someone who'd otherwise be competitive, and have done that before -- I just think it is a bad look to explicitly ask over email to someone you've never met before? At the very least, it is risky and somewhat unlikely to be productive as a first request.

[Anonymous User]

I would also feel comfortable passing along an app to my judge's attention after a good phone conversation from someone who'd otherwise be competitive, and have done that before -- I just think it is a bad look to explicitly ask over email to someone you've never met before? At the very least, it is risky and somewhat unlikely to be productive as a first request.

Oh yes, you shouldn't ask that of any clerk, ever. The way to do it is to ask the clerk if they have some time to talk about the judge and let the clerk direct things from there. Even if the clerk isn't in a position to go to bat for you, if you get them on the phone you'll learn something useful.

[Anonymous User]

Any tips from current/former clerks on interviews? What are things we should do and things we should avoid in them? Do all decent interviewers seem pretty much the same or can you actually distinguish using them? (Any entertaining horror stories?)

[Anonymous User]

Any tips from current/former clerks on interviews? What are things we should do and things we should avoid in them? Do all decent interviewers seem pretty much the same or can you actually distinguish using them? (Any entertaining horror stories?)

1. Be confident -- my judge turned down someone who, on paper, was a perfect fit. But in the interview, he was so unsure of himself that the judge didn't think he'd be able to have a back-and-forth debate about legal issues with them.

2. Do your homework -- it's acceptable to reach out to previous clerks, especially if you share an alma mater. This will help you get a better sense for the judge and for the clerkship. And it almost surely will get back to the judge or his staff that you've been doing your due diligence. At least in my chambers, this was considered a good thing.

3. Along the same lines, read a good selection of the judge's recent opinions, any en banc opinions, and as many dissents as you can. This may or may not come up in the interview, but it's important you seem informed about the judge's jurisprudence.

4. Have an answer ready for the "why ____" question, to the extent that you're interviewing outside of a major city.

5. It's nearly as important to come off well to the JA and Career Clerk (if any) as it is to the judge. At both my district and circuit clerkships, the people in these roles had significant input in who was hired.

[mjb447]

Any tips from current/former clerks on interviews? What are things we should do and things we should avoid in them? Do all decent interviewers seem pretty much the same or can you actually distinguish using them? (Any entertaining horror stories?)

1. Be confident -- my judge turned down someone who, on paper, was a perfect fit. But in the interview, he was so unsure of himself that the judge didn't think he'd be able to have a back-and-forth debate about legal issues with them.

2. Do your homework -- it's acceptable to reach out to previous clerks, especially if you share an alma mater. This will help you get a better sense for the judge and for the clerkship. And it almost surely will get back to the judge or his staff that you've been doing your due diligence. At least in my chambers, this was considered a good thing.

3. Along the same lines, read a good selection of the judge's recent opinions, any en banc opinions, and as many dissents as you can. This may or may not come up in the interview, but it's important you seem informed about the judge's jurisprudence.

4. Have an answer ready for the "why ____" question, to the extent that you're interviewing outside of a major city.

5. It's nearly as important to come off well to the JA and Career Clerk (if any) as it is to the judge. At both my district and circuit clerkships, the people in these roles had significant input in who was hired.

This is all good advice - I think really nailing down #4, expanded to encompass anything about chambers, was frequently one of the most important parts of my prep.

Why this judge? Maybe there's an opinion you found interesting, or you like his writing style, or you're interested in learning from someone who used to be whatever the judge used to be.

Why this city/region/district/circuit? Is there anything about the docket or the area that particularly appeals to you?

Why trial court / appellate court? Their tasks are very different, and different personalities can sometimes do better at different levels.

It at least puts you ahead of anybody who hasn't thought about it and is just clerking because it's the next box to check. (But bring things like this up only if you can credibly say them and back them up if necessary, of course. Judges tend to have pretty good BS detectors.)

And yeah, try to be confident and outgoing without shading over into aggressive, arrogant, or neurotic. There's a reason it's a cliche that the interview is usually about fit - no one wants to work in close quarters with a toxic personality or a total nonentity for a year.

[Anonymous User]

Is it going to count significantly against me if I apply to term clerkships after spending more than 3 years in practice? Also, assuming everything else is great or solid, any suggestions for overcoming sub cum laude class standing?

[galba]

Is it going to count significantly against me if I apply to term clerkships after spending more than 3 years in practice? Also, assuming everything else is great or solid, any suggestions for overcoming sub cum laude class standing?

A handful of judges only hire out of law school (as an extreme example, Jerry Smith on CA5 exclusively hires rising 2Ls), but my general sense is that most judges look favorably on work experience. My judge hires a mix of fresh-out and experienced clerks, and while I'm not sure the judge has ever hired someone who applied more than 3 years out, I don't think that would be a deal-breaker by any means. If the candidate was otherwise good, they would probably just get an extra question or two on why they wanted to clerk.

Of course, whether it's worth it for you to clerk deeper into your career is a totally different question.

[Anonymous User]

Is it going to count significantly against me if I apply to term clerkships after spending more than 3 years in practice? Also, assuming everything else is great or solid, any suggestions for overcoming sub cum laude class standing?

My COA judge routinely hires clerks with several years (5+ experience). They just care about the fit.

Your work experience will probably help compensate for grades. Also recommendations definitely can. I felt like judges who interviewed me overlooked some weaker grades because my recommendations were so strong.

[lavarman84]

Is it going to count significantly against me if I apply to term clerkships after spending more than 3 years in practice? Also, assuming everything else is great or solid, any suggestions for overcoming sub cum laude class standing?

I'd say that the sweet spot in 0-3 years experience. Some judges won't hire straight out of law school. Some judges won't hire anybody who isn't straight out of law school. But most judges are looking for people with experience in that range. 4 years is on the higher side but doable. Once you get into the 5-10 years experience range, your options dwindle. That's not to say you can't do it. There are judges who hire in that range. There are even a few judges who mainly only hire people in that range. You just have less options.

[Anonymous User]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

Just as a counter-perspective here, I'm a former clerk who wouldn't mind receiving this email from someone who goes to my alma mater, although it's something I'd rather do over the phone, and it's a question you'd have to ask in the right tone. I won't be able to make your application better, and I'm not going to encourage you to package yourself as someone you're not. But if someone with competitive grades reaches out to me and we have a good conversation, I'm comfortable reaching out to the judge to let them know you applied and that I think you're a good candidate. That should at least get your app pulled and from there it's up to the judge. Past clerks from my school were enormously valuable to me when I was applying and I feel a lot of loyalty toward my school, so I don't mind sticking my neck out if I think the person has a legitimate shot at getting hired.

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences, "what's it like to clerk for Judge X" because to me it seems presumptuous and assumes I have bargaining power in this process that I don't have. AIII clerkships, and COA clerkships in particular, are so desirable and competitive that no applicant is really in the position to be asking about work style, chambers environment etc. before they apply. It's not like EIP where if you have grades above a certain mark you can assume you'll get X offers from firms and can decide ex ante where to apply based on where you want to work. I suspect most clerks will be able to see through the pretext and guess that the random 2L from their alma mater who emailed them isn't in the bargaining position to be deciding which 9th circuit clerkship to take based on what the assignment system looks like in chambers.

[lavarman84]

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences, "what's it like to clerk for Judge X" because to me it seems presumptuous and assumes I have bargaining power in this process that I don't have. AIII clerkships, and COA clerkships in particular, are so desirable and competitive that no applicant is really in the position to be asking about work style, chambers environment etc. before they apply. It's not like EIP where if you have grades above a certain mark you can assume you'll get X offers from firms and can decide ex ante where to apply based on where you want to work. I suspect most clerks will be able to see through the pretext and guess that the random 2L from their alma mater who emailed them isn't in the bargaining position to be deciding which 9th circuit clerkship to take based on what the assignment system looks like in chambers.

As a person who clerked at the D. Ct. and COA levels, I'd consider that vital information. I don't recommend asking via email. I recommend speaking over the phone. It usually makes more sense to ask once you have an interview, but there's nothing wrong with asking while considering applying. You may not have bargaining power on whether a judge hires you or not (typically), but you do have the power to determine which judges to whom you will apply. I would not be remotely offended if you reached out to set up a phone call and asked about my experience in chambers.

Why not over email? Because you'll lose the ability to assess the most important aspects of the question. Rarely are clerks going to outright tell you that their judge sucks (although, I did have a clerk tell me that), and if they do, they're almost certainly not going to put it in writing. By talking on the phone, you can gauge their enthusiasm for their judge, and they might be more willing to give information that isn't necessarily positive.

[mjb447]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

Just as a counter-perspective here, I'm a former clerk who wouldn't mind receiving this email from someone who goes to my alma mater, although it's something I'd rather do over the phone, and it's a question you'd have to ask in the right tone. I won't be able to make your application better, and I'm not going to encourage you to package yourself as someone you're not. But if someone with competitive grades reaches out to me and we have a good conversation, I'm comfortable reaching out to the judge to let them know you applied and that I think you're a good candidate. That should at least get your app pulled and from there it's up to the judge. Past clerks from my school were enormously valuable to me when I was applying and I feel a lot of loyalty toward my school, so I don't mind sticking my neck out if I think the person has a legitimate shot at getting hired.

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences, "what's it like to clerk for Judge X" because to me it seems presumptuous and assumes I have bargaining power in this process that I don't have. AIII clerkships, and COA clerkships in particular, are so desirable and competitive that no applicant is really in the position to be asking about work style, chambers environment etc. before they apply. It's not like EIP where if you have grades above a certain mark you can assume you'll get X offers from firms and can decide ex ante where to apply based on where you want to work. I suspect most clerks will be able to see through the pretext and guess that the random 2L from their alma mater who emailed them isn't in the bargaining position to be deciding which 9th circuit clerkship to take based on what the assignment system looks like in chambers.

I'd always welcome that question because it is, or at least should be, less about "bargaining power" and more about fit. If you're hoping to get something in particular out of a clerkship, e.g., a lifelong mentor or an extended chambers "alumni network," or you know you really work best in a particular atmosphere, e.g., a lot of back-and-forth and facetime vs. something more monastic, a more flexible vs. more rigid schedule, it's best for you and for chambers if you get information about those things before you spend time applying and we spend time reviewing your app. Even if you don't learn anything earth-shattering during the conversation, it's good to know that there aren't dealbreakers (and something you heard might still help you prioritize your limited app slots or interviews)

I suppose there could come a point where I was deluged with calls and emails to the extent that I didn't want them any more, but I never came anywhere close to that point during my clerkships.

[stoopkid13]

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences.

As a former clerk, I'm happy to talk to applicants over the phone about my experience clerking. But I'm not going to speak to applicants as a current clerk, just because I think it's improper if I'm also the one screening your application.

[Anonymous User]

I know normally sending in a paper app might help your app get read, but is that still the case this year? For judges accepting applications on OSCAR, is there any reason to apply via email or snail mail? Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

What are some of the best questions clerks have received from applicants? What are some good questions to ask judges during an interview? Especially for someone who has never talked with a judge before...

[Anonymous User]

Hi!! Term clerks: how long after your interviews did you hear back from the judge re an offer (or not)? Just trying to get a sense of the range of time... Thanks!!

[HenryHankPalmer]

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences.

As a former clerk, I'm happy to talk to applicants over the phone about my experience clerking. But I'm not going to speak to applicants as a current clerk, just because I think it's improper if I'm also the one screening your application.

I've talked to a handful of current clerks about their experience and the application process. I mention one of those conversations in a cover letter as a specific reason that I am interested in that judge. My clerkship office says there is no problem with that, but, in your experience, is there a risk that it will look bad to a judge?

[ExperssioUnius]

Hi!! Term clerks: how long after your interviews did you hear back from the judge re an offer (or not)? Just trying to get a sense of the range of time... Thanks!!

I've had two offers within a week of interviewing and one offer 7 weeks post-interview. The former is far more common.
I've had rejections range from a little over a week out to one instance where I never received a letter/email/etc. Most have probably fallen in the 2-3 week range.

[Anonymous User]

Hi!! Term clerks: how long after your interviews did you hear back from the judge re an offer (or not)? Just trying to get a sense of the range of time... Thanks!!

I got one offer via phone the day after the interview and another via mail a week after the interview. As for my (numerous) rejections, they ranged from two weeks after the interview to a year later (I had long given up hope on the latter).

[stoopkid13]

As a current applicant I am kind of hesitant to ask former/current clerks about their experiences.

As a former clerk, I'm happy to talk to applicants over the phone about my experience clerking. But I'm not going to speak to applicants as a current clerk, just because I think it's improper if I'm also the one screening your application.

I've talked to a handful of current clerks about their experience and the application process. I mention one of those conversations in a cover letter as a specific reason that I am interested in that judge. My clerkship office says there is no problem with that, but, in your experience, is there a risk that it will look bad to a judge?

If the judge's clerks actually spoke with you, then I'm almost certain the judge would not mind (basically trust the clerk's judgment regarding their respective judge). And I don't hold it against applicants emailing me. I just think it's a waste of time because I'm just going to reply "Unfortunately, I can't speak to applicants while applications are pending, but I'm happy to speak with you once my clerkship ends in XXXX." Maybe that response is not as typical as I thought though.

[Anonymous User]

(Any entertaining horror stories?)

For your amusement:

I applied early one morning. That afternoon, I got a call from the relevant area code. Based on experience, I thought I was going to be invited to fly in for an interview, so I answered. For the next hour, all of the Judge's clerks asked incredibly difficult (for me anyway) questions based on constitutional hypotheticals and statutory interpretation issues. I thought I did well, but after actually clerking, I can confidently say I did not: I hung up sweaty and never got to meet the Judge.

Fast forward a few months: A mentor got my application flagged and I received an interview with another Judge. Comparatively, the clerk interview fairly simple. And I had an incredible conversation with the Judge for the first 30 minutes. Then, with a few minutes left, the Judge said "I'm so sorry, but you had typos in your writing sample." I'm a grown wo/man, but my mouth went completely dry and I almost broke down crying. It turns out that I had sent a rough draft of my writing sample rather than the final copy. Unsurprisingly, I am still praying my mentor forgives me.

I could go on (yes, there's more) but I'll just say the story has a happy ending; I found a clean writing sample, fielded substantive questions, and received a "how did s/he get that?" clerkship.

[lavarman84]

Hi!! Term clerks: how long after your interviews did you hear back from the judge re an offer (or not)? Just trying to get a sense of the range of time... Thanks!!

Ranged from same day to months later. One of my offers came 48 hours after the interview. Another came 8-10 weeks later. I'd say within a month is a conservative estimate for your typical turnaround. Two weeks might be closer to accurate.

[mjb447]

I applied early one morning. That afternoon, I got a call from the relevant area code. Based on experience, I thought I was going to be invited to fly in for an interview, so I answered. For the next hour, all of the Judge's clerks asked incredibly difficult (for me anyway) questions based on constitutional hypotheticals and statutory interpretation issues. I thought I did well, but after actually clerking, I can confidently say I did not: I hung up sweaty and never got to meet the Judge.

(Applicants and prospective applicants: this is very, very unusual.)