Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

How much will a district court clerkship help in terms of getting a COA position?

I have a D. Ct clerkship, and in the process of applying to COAs, but I cannot tell if I'm a competitive applicant.

CCN above median, below top third.
LR Board
At least two good LOR
RA experience
Strong leadership experience in law school

Open to any region.

Above getting my judge/profs to make calls, would this resume get picked up for an interview?

I had a very similar resume (secondary journal rather than LR, but some biglaw experience prior to my D. Ct. clerkship) and was able to secure a COA. I had ties to the market in which the judge resides, which was important in that application process. But the morale is COA is not completely out of reach with those credentials.

[Anonymous User]

Is DC Cir. realistic with top 20-25 percent + LR at HYS, or is magna pretty much required?

[Anonymous User]

. (double post)

[Anonymous User]

If you dont mind me asking, how do you know you're top 20-25%?

[The Lsat Airbender]

If you dont mind me asking, how do you know you're top 20-25%?

Probably, they're roughly halfway between between the (historical) magna cutoff and the vanilla cum laude cutoff. Or they're on the cusp of magna and want to know if they can chill out in 3L.

[Anonymous User]

If you dont mind me asking, how do you know you're top 20-25%?

Probably, they're roughly halfway between between the (historical) magna cutoff and the vanilla cum laude cutoff. Or they're on the cusp of magna and want to know if they can chill out in 3L.

the former; I was just above cum laude after 1L and improved my grades substantially in 2L, but not enough for magna

[Anonymous User]

Is DC Cir. realistic with top 20-25 percent + LR at HYS, or is magna pretty much required?

Another HLS 2L so take it FWIW, but why not just apply? Theres a chart on the clerkship section of OCS that will state your reaches, targets, and safeties. In your range (which I assume is closer to the “more H than P band” and not the “mostly H with several DS” group) I’m guessing non-feeder D.C. Circuit would be significant reaches (absent significant connections of course) and feeders are out of play probably. I’ve also heard repeatedly that at the 2/7/9/DC level it’s connections that get you the job with top grades being necessary but not sufficient. Still, can’t hurt to apply right?

[Anonymous User]

Is DC Cir. realistic with top 20-25 percent + LR at HYS, or is magna pretty much required?

Another HLS 2L so take it FWIW, but why not just apply? Theres a chart on the clerkship section of OCS that will state your reaches, targets, and safeties. In your range (which I assume is closer to the “more H than P band” and not the “mostly H with several DS” group) I’m guessing non-feeder D.C. Circuit would be significant reaches (absent significant connections of course) and feeders are out of play probably. I’ve also heard repeatedly that at the 2/7/9/DC level it’s connections that get you the job with top grades being necessary but not sufficient. Still, can’t hurt to apply right?

original DC Cir. poster here; it's not so much about whether I will apply, but about who I want my recommenders to call. I have two recommenders willing to make calls but I don't want to "waste" the presumably limited # of calls I have with them on judges I don't have a credible shot at getting interviews with.

[Anonymous User]

Is DC Cir. realistic with top 20-25 percent + LR at HYS, or is magna pretty much required?

Another HLS 2L so take it FWIW, but why not just apply? Theres a chart on the clerkship section of OCS that will state your reaches, targets, and safeties. In your range (which I assume is closer to the “more H than P band” and not the “mostly H with several DS” group) I’m guessing non-feeder D.C. Circuit would be significant reaches (absent significant connections of course) and feeders are out of play probably. I’ve also heard repeatedly that at the 2/7/9/DC level it’s connections that get you the job with top grades being necessary but not sufficient. Still, can’t hurt to apply right?

original DC Cir. poster here; it's not so much about whether I will apply, but about who I want my recommenders to call. I have two recommenders willing to make calls but I don't want to "waste" the presumably limited # of calls I have with them on judges I don't have a credible shot at getting interviews with.

In that case, I personally wouldn't waste them on Garland or Srinivasan; I've anecdotally heard they're ridiculously picky on grades. You can probably lump in Tatel with them as he is a feeder. No intel on the conservatives. I'm sure you'll get a good clerkship either way though.

[replevin123]

Hi current clerks, how has hiring has been affected in your chambers? Are judges taking longer to hire or considering more applicants? Are current terms being extended because of clerks' difficulty landing jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Hi current clerks, how has hiring has been affected in your chambers? Are judges taking longer to hire or considering more applicants? Are current terms being extended because of clerks' difficulty landing jobs.

In my circuit chambers, we had hired next year's class well before this all hit and there are no plans of extending terms because of clerks' difficulties landing jobs (we all have our next jobs lined up, but it seems unlikely that we would have extended even if that wasn't the case). The only extensions may be short ones to accommodate early-fall bar exams for incoming clerks.

And on hiring, we had no hiring activity for awhile, but have done a couple interviews and made a couple hires in the last week or two as new applications are starting to pick up. (Many students didn't bother waiting to end the spring semester because their school went pass-fail.)

[beepboopbeep]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

[nixy]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

Absolutely agree with this. I'm happy to talk to someone about my clerk experiences, and am fine with doing so before an interview (I don't think you can really "game" an interview by pretending to be something you're not, and it can be important to find out about red flags before an interview if you need to consider if you'd want to withdraw). But reaching out to clerks isn't going to get your application pulled without any of the other reasons why your application might be pulled (stellar grades/pedigree, connections, the judge's personal idiosyncracies/preferences).

[dm1683]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

Absolutely agree with this. I'm happy to talk to someone about my clerk experiences, and am fine with doing so before an interview (I don't think you can really "game" an interview by pretending to be something you're not, and it can be important to find out about red flags before an interview if you need to consider if you'd want to withdraw). But reaching out to clerks isn't going to get your application pulled without any of the other reasons why your application might be pulled (stellar grades/pedigree, connections, the judge's personal idiosyncracies/preferences).

As a current applicant, I appreciate the insight from both of you and I'm sure your views on unsolicited cold emails from candidates are shared by the majority of current clerks. However, although you're right that straight-up asking "what can I do to improve my application" is a bit gauche, I think that the fact that it's so common is a function of the bolded and the rules of this game we're playing.

The reality is that someone can have grades, rec letters all in order and it still isn't enough because someone else has more famous recommenders or the judge is friends with their uncle or whatever. Particularly for the top judges, credentials alone aren't even enough to get pulled from the pile, let alone get the job. This is particularly true for applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds who might be less comfortable making the connections they need to or who just might lack the institutional awareness of the (let's be honest here) WASP Ivy League insiders with massive networks that they're going up against.

If this were a more purely meritocratic process, I would sympathize more with the "don't ask for application advice" take, but in light of how it really works, can you really blame people for doing whatever they can think of to get that edge? I'm not saying that doing it is a good idea or will actually give someone a leg up, but i can understand why many people think to do it.

[beepboopbeep]

I agree with some of those things, and don't "blame" current applicants for thinking it would be useful to get any intel like that. I'm sure there are idiosyncracies in many chambers that would make a difference once a judge is looking at your application. All I am saying is that it's a bad idea to follow through on the impulse to ask at least with respect to current/former clerks you don't personally know. I'm not gonna snitch on a gauche email. Others might.

(Also, like, pure self-interest: getting the "how can I game the app" email is slightly annoying and I'd like to receive fewer of them)

[nixy]

Sure, I get why people think of it and I don't blame anyone for doing it, it's just a waste of everyone's time. I'm not going to hold it against anyone who tries it, unless it's some kind of completely untoward e-mail (which I think the vast majority won't be, but it's possible).

I agree that the decks are stacked against a lot of stellar applicants, but I'm not going to be able to do anything about that.

[mjb447]

Unsolicited advice from a former clerk who is starting to get emails from current students: don't reach out asking how to make your application to a particular judge better. For one, at least for our chambers, there was no right answer other than "get really good grades and go to a good school," which you probably already tried your best to do and can't do anything more to improve on now.

More importantly, the value add of talking to former clerks is getting their insight about what it's like to clerk for a particular judge. Judges run the gamut in terms of personability, feedback, working environment, etc., and while you're not super likely to draw mild negative comments from clerks, you can pick up on red flags and figure out which clerks are truly enthusiastic about their experiences. I strongly encourage students reaching out to clerks to ask about that rather than about how to game the application process.

Absolutely agree with this. I'm happy to talk to someone about my clerk experiences, and am fine with doing so before an interview (I don't think you can really "game" an interview by pretending to be something you're not, and it can be important to find out about red flags before an interview if you need to consider if you'd want to withdraw). But reaching out to clerks isn't going to get your application pulled without any of the other reasons why your application might be pulled (stellar grades/pedigree, connections, the judge's personal idiosyncracies/preferences).

+1. All I'm going to be able to tell you is either stuff you can't change, like grades and school, or stuff you're almost certainly aware of already, like making sure you identify any reasons you want to clerk specifically for my judge. Even if I could provide insight - e.g., if my judge likes people who want to go into public service and you didn't already know that - I don't want to help someone game the system that way.

[lavarman84]

To the extent I might offer somebody that sort of advice, it would come in a phone call, not an email. And it's not going to be Earth-shattering advice, but I might offer you a tip or two if we talk on the phone, you come off as a likable person, and I want to help you. But I'm certainly not going to respond to an out-of-the-blue email with anything other than generic advice.

[Anonymous User]

Speaking of emails, to which email do I submit email apps? I have access to judicial yellow book that gives the emails of the judge (e.g. judge_judy@caX.uscourts.gov) but also the emails of the clerks and JAs. I'm thinking JAs/clerks is the way to go, but my school/recommenders want a specific email address and some of the chambers don't have emails specifically for apps.

[beepboopbeep]

In my prior chambers, either the JA's email or the judge_X email would be fine. I would not email a judge's law clerks directly basically ever unless they've reached out to you first, but especially in the May-September range -- in addition to it being awkward/outside the norm, a clerk's term might run and your email might just go into the void.

[mjb447]

In my prior chambers, either the JA's email or the judge_X email would be fine. I would not email a judge's law clerks directly basically ever unless they've reached out to you first, but especially in the May-September range -- in addition to it being awkward/outside the norm, a clerk's term might run and your email might just go into the void.

Same in my prior chambers.

[Anonymous User]

This is particularly true for applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds who might be less comfortable making the connections they need to or who just might lack the institutional awareness of the (let's be honest here) WASP Ivy League insiders with massive networks that they're going up against.

I clerk in an extremely selective district. I'm looking at the clerk directory. It's a long list. I can count the number of "WASP Ivy Leaguers" on the list with one hand. I think your boogeyman is almost extinct and you need to chill out with your racism and religious bigotry.

I am neither Anglo-Saxon nor Protestant, but I am from a "disadvantaged background" and wouldn't want people hating me for who I am and what I believe.

[Internationalist]

This is particularly true for applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds who might be less comfortable making the connections they need to or who just might lack the institutional awareness of the (let's be honest here) WASP Ivy League insiders with massive networks that they're going up against.

I clerk in an extremely selective district. I'm looking at the clerk directory. It's a long list. I can count the number of "WASP Ivy Leaguers" on the list with one hand. I think your boogeyman is almost extinct and you need to chill out with your racism and religious bigotry.

I am neither Anglo-Saxon nor Protestant, but I am from a "disadvantaged background" and wouldn't want people hating me for who I am and what I believe.

Do you know all of the clerks in your district? How can you know whether they are "WASP Ivy Leaguers" based on the directory (which I assume is only names, numbers, emails)?

I also clerk in "an extremely selective district" and would not be able to tell what my colleagues' credentials are based solely on our directory. The clerks I do know tend to have ivy league credentials, though the clerk pool is fairly diverse here.

[nixy]

Also it's pretty obvious that federal law clerks as a whole aren't the most diverse group around.

(And since when is "WASP Ivy Leaguer" racist/religiously bigoted???)

[Anonymous User]

Is DC Cir. realistic with top 20-25 percent + LR at HYS, or is magna pretty much required?

Another HLS 2L so take it FWIW, but why not just apply? Theres a chart on the clerkship section of OCS that will state your reaches, targets, and safeties. In your range (which I assume is closer to the “more H than P band” and not the “mostly H with several DS” group) I’m guessing non-feeder D.C. Circuit would be significant reaches (absent significant connections of course) and feeders are out of play probably. I’ve also heard repeatedly that at the 2/7/9/DC level it’s connections that get you the job with top grades being necessary but not sufficient. Still, can’t hurt to apply right?

original DC Cir. poster here; it's not so much about whether I will apply, but about who I want my recommenders to call. I have two recommenders willing to make calls but I don't want to "waste" the presumably limited # of calls I have with them on judges I don't have a credible shot at getting interviews with.

In that case, I personally wouldn't waste them on Garland or Srinivasan; I've anecdotally heard they're ridiculously picky on grades. You can probably lump in Tatel with them as he is a feeder. No intel on the conservatives. I'm sure you'll get a good clerkship either way though.

I think DC Circuit is out with 4Ps and no DS. but ultimately you should leave it up to your profs who they call (maybe anybody they actually know)